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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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There are 12909 posts in this topic. You are on page 235 of 259.
#11701 26 days ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Since I made a steve jobs comparison (and someone else posted the perfect clip from the movie), the more I think about it nearly every company starts small (which doesn't seem to be the path of deeproot).
Steve jobs didn't go "Hey I'm going to change computers and jump right to a macintosh!". Nope, him and wozniak built homebrew computers, then made the apple I, then got funding to build production apple II's.
Elon musk didn't come out of the gate "I'm going to build a giant car factory and make my own chassis and my own batteries". Nope, he borrowed the chassis and body from a lotus, bought off the shelf batteries, and made a small run of expensive $100k electric roadsters (which all sold).
Even Gary Stern did not go full blown 100k sq foot factory and start making pinballs out of the gate. Between Stern electronics and Data east pinball, he started a company called Pinstar, made conversion playfield kits for Bally Pinballs.
Not saying it can't be done.. I mean JJP managed to survive (but they almost didn't and had to get bailed out).

Jobs didn't have the macintosh on the mind when they started apple. The apple I was to 'change computers' and did... on the back of woz. At virtually every step of the way Jobs reached bigger than they actually were or could be. It was one of his ways of pushing people to perform.

Elon didn't start out small... Tesla built the roadster based on the elise because they wanted to develop their EV platform first and not have to reinvent EVERYTHING at the start. (avoiding millions of hours of R&D to recreate what was non-essential to the goal). It was a way of getting to market and focusing their efforts... not 'we want smart growth...' or anything. It was an engineering solution. Tesla raised nearly $100 million in their first 5 years to fund the company. That's not starting small

But of all the examples... only Tesla was one started in the big VC era where tens of millions are given to people for just ideas and so many companies try to be disruptors right off the bat. These aren't organic growth, be profitable early, business plans. They go big and try to grow fast at the expense of the bottom line... with either the promise of a buyout, or cross-over with high gains afterwards.

The world was different in the 70s.. and even 80s. You had to have a business model that showed sustainability. That went out the door for many segments post dot-com and in the modern era.

#11702 26 days ago
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:

We all knew this day was coming, a touch screen on a pinball machine. Hardly innovative, just simply catching up with the surrounding world we now live in.
As a designer I could certainly have me some fun coming up with new ideas for it's use, but unless you have a highly-skilled penis, you will need to use one hand or the other to make all the swipy actions on the screen....meaning a disconnect from the game while you navigate the options, not a terribly good idea.
To be honest, the action button Stern came up with, that was a damn cool idea...because you can smack it, real hard and real quick. Gentely gliding your finger along a screen, just won't feel right, as there's no physical feedback.
And a QWERTY keyboard to enter your name? Just an excuse to leave 'comedy' names behind like 'Ivan Ardon 69'.
I just hope it doesn't add a tremendous amount of time and money to their budget, like JJP's ridiculous big TV and all it's nonsense. Keep it real, keep it pinball.

How do you assume the pinbar will be integral to gameplay? My assumption is that it will primarily be used to display game information such as timers, score, and mode instructions. No need to make it out to be some complicated thing where you have to type out a term paper while playing a game. Stern, Spooky, JJP, and Heighway have tried putting displays either mounted on the pf or part of the pf. I rather have it on the lockbar instead of on the pf taking up valuable real estate. Sure, you could go back to just a simple alpha-numeric display and call it done but nice to have more features.

#11703 26 days ago

The revolutionary PinArmor (TM), and the cute "send us a disparaging quote, get a t-shirt" charm offensive leading up to the reveal of this apparently lumpy, rock hard glaze raises an interesting question: Will you folks be happy with an orange peel clearcoat as long as you can get gakked up and hammer on it or drop lead pinballs all over without causing any additional bumps?

Or do the people demand a clearcoat that can both take hammer shots AND is also smooth as glass? If you can't have summer night lake smooth, how lumpy of a playfield clearcoat is acceptable as long as it passes the "hammer test" (tm)?

#11704 26 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The revolutionary PinArmor (TM), and the cute "send us a disparaging quote, get a t-shirt" charm offensive leading up to the revel of this apparently lumpy, rock hard glaze raises an interesting question: Will you folks be happy with an orange peel clearcoat as long as you can get gakked up and hammer on it or drop lead pinballs all over without causing any additional bumps?
Or do the people demand a clearcoat that can both take hammer shots AND is also smooth as glass? If you can't have summer night lake smooth, how lumpy is acceptable as long as it passes the "hammer test" (tm)?

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

No one will give a shit about a 'hammer proof' playfield, if it looks like it was already attacked by a hammer (IE if it's orange peel'ed to hell). What a dumb thing for them to have made such a huge deal about before they got it 100% sorted...

#11705 26 days ago
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:

We all knew this day was coming, a touch screen on a pinball machine. Hardly innovative, just simply catching up with the surrounding world we now live in.
As a designer I could certainly have me some fun coming up with new ideas for it's use, but unless you have a highly-skilled penis, you will need to use one hand or the other to make all the swipy actions on the screen... Keep it real, keep it pinball.

This whole comment was spot on, but the "highly-skilled penis" portion is the most hilarious thing I've read in awhile.

#11706 26 days ago
Quoted from nogoodnames222:

I think I speak for everyone when I say:
No one will give a shit about a 'hammer proof' playfield, if it looks like it was already attacked by a hammer (IE if it's orange peel'ed to hell). What a dumb thing for them to have made such a huge deal about before they got it 100% sorted...

You can’t dimple a pf that is already dimpled?

#11707 26 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Jobs didn't have the macintosh on the mind when they started apple. The apple I was to 'change computers' and did... on the back of woz. At virtually every step of the way Jobs reached bigger than they actually were or could be. It was one of his ways of pushing people to perform.

I was making the comparison that deeproot is trying to be macintosh out of the gate instead of an apple like most pinball startups. Just build a good product without re-inventing the wheel

Quoted from flynnibus:

Tesla raised nearly $100 million in their first 5 years to fund the company. That's not starting small

100 million sounds like a lot, but for a car company it's not. Hell I'm guessing JUST the tooling for all the components of an automobile (even an electric one that has WAY less parts) would probably eat up half of that. From the videos I've seen of even the early factory, most of the parts are made in-house (which means it's more than just tooling, it's investment capital in giant presses to form metal body panels).

Deeproot's funding isn't clear, but it sounded like they had like 30 million (which is a lot for a pinball company), and at the end of the day the investors want to profit off their investment. While Robert might want to break the mold and change the landscape, we are also talking about an industry that is mayyybe 150 million in net sales across all companies. I think he has visions of increasing that number by cost reducing pinball so it's obtainable by more people hence making it a bigger industry, but I don't know how you do that by incorporating touch screens.

#11708 26 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

You can’t dimple a playfield that is already dimpled?

People pay good money for distressed jeans to get that "already worn" look.
People pay good money for Fender custom shop relic series guitars to get that well-used look.
But pinball collectors? They're just not interested in that "heavily-routed" look.

#11709 26 days ago

I'll take orange peel but only if it can survive the cheese grater test.

#11710 26 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

There is NOTHING about "saavy and successful business owner" that tries to generate LOSSES for tax purposes.

I beg to differ
(The Package).jpeg (resized).jpg

#11711 26 days ago

I agree with the previously made comment that having an LCD in the lockdown is distracting HOWEVER the beauty of this is, they could allow you to use that not only as a menu system but also a duplicate of the main screen - but also allow you to manually turn off certain features or ALL when not needed via software!

I have no dog in this fight but at this point can one "truly" "solely" blame JPOP for this launch failure? There's more than one designer at DR is there not? The old saying, "We win as a team and lose as a team" I believe holds true to this day.

I'm actually glad DR put the brakes on the release. The design is absolutely in need of redesigning. I suspect it's also crucial to their vision (guessing here) that having a modular cabinet for OP's to swap stuff out easily instead of having to swap machines they swap guts.

The last thing DR needs is to release something that is going to be a "standard" that most people hate.

#11712 26 days ago

I'm just surprised that no one has yet demanded a flesh light be mounted on the coin door.

10
#11713 26 days ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

I'm just surprised that no one has yet demanded a flesh light be mounted on the coin door.

Pinside precedent says “the game should have sex with you” jokes don’t start until a price is announced.

If the game DOES have sex with you I hope they iron out the rough clear coat and pointy metal issues before the game gets a full release.

#11714 26 days ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I was making the comparison that deeproot is trying to be macintosh out of the gate instead of an apple like most pinball startups. Just build a good product without re-inventing the wheel

I'm not feeling the comparison... Machintosh was tackling very real world issues and had tangible ambitions of how it would change the addressable market. Plus, it was not Apple's 'early' product. Apple was already insanely successful with an established market, and had just gone public. They could afford to reinvent the market

Quoted from toyotaboy:

100 million sounds like a lot, but for a car company it's not.

It wasn't really for the end game.. which is why they were taking money for so long The point wasn't if it was enough, but simply that it wasn't some 'start small and stable...' model. They were going big - but they made some engineering choices early to let them specialize on what would make them different, and borrow what wasn't essential in their effort to make their mark.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Deeproot's funding isn't clear, but it sounded like they had like 30 million (which is a lot for a pinball company), and at the end of the day the investors want to profit off their investment. While Robert might want to break the mold and change the landscape, we are also talking about an industry that is mayyybe 150 million in net sales across all companies. I think he has visions of increasing that number by cost reducing pinball so it's obtainable by more people hence making it a bigger industry, but I don't know how you do that by incorporating touch screens.

Insert "its not your money why do you care..." retorts... lol

Your basic point here has been brought up by many over and over as we've looked at what business model he could possibly be eyeing up. All the promises about insane volume, teasing of expanding the market, maybe even targeting completely new spaces. We did the simple math on what it would take to even support the burn-rate Bob was so famously boasting. It didn't make sense then... it still doesn't make sense now. And like you pointed out... touch screens really aren't going to be the lightning bolt to shock the world.

But really we should look beyond the stupid pinbar, and acknowledge what they are really investing in, is this digital connected and data enabled platform. But at this point we really don't know how much is vaporware vs done... and what their GTM strategy is. Surely they would be in the modern world of looking to charge subscriptions for their services... but this market hasn't moved there yet, and its also limited by people that actually have your big expensive hardware.

#11715 26 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

I have no dog in this fight but at this point can one "truly" "solely" blame JPOP for this launch failure? There's more than one designer at DR is there not? The old saying, "We win as a team and lose as a team" I believe holds true to this day.

Really depends on how the team is managed. I've worked at a company where each designer is solely responsible for their piece of the project, and if your piece fails you take all the responsibility (which is a huge burden). Where I currently work, our entire team reviews each other's work and we all take the blame if something goes wrong. It might take more of our time, but in the end you have way less mistakes and a much better design. If I had to guess being a startup, a lot of that structure may not be worked out yet.

66
#11716 26 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

this digital connected and data enabled platform.

A good percentage of their marketing bullets are already implemented and deployed and being used by our customers today. There's not too much innovation in networking features, data collection/analysis, coding/configuration frameworks. The trick is always figuring out how best to use them to create a fun, enriched experience for those who want more than what traditional pinball gives them.

If somebody spends millions of dollars and years of dev time and delivers a fantastic, complete experience that's loved by everybody, I'll offer my congrats. I think it makes sense to get machines out, then enhance the ecosystem with more and more features as you learn what your customers connect with and what they don't, and then invest in what works and disregard what doesn't.

If anybody else has $30M they want to invest in an enriched pinball experience... yeesh... call me. Look what we've done with less than $1M.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#11717 26 days ago
Quoted from russdx:

You can’t dimple a pf that is already dimpled?

Pay attention! You CAN...with a highly-skilled penis!

#11718 26 days ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

Pay attention! You CAN...with a highly-skilled penis!

Fricken hilarious

#11719 26 days ago
Quoted from Pinballer67:

Pay attention! You CAN...with a highly-skilled penis!

Where The F&*CK has this thread gone.

thread's dead (resized).jpg

#11720 26 days ago

I think I’m part of the minority who cares about the RAZA gameplay, toys innovations. What about that?
Is there anything new and great to see in the RAZA playfield?
I mean, what do we care nowdays is just to get an extra screen? Seriously?
I’ve heard that pinball hype was really an escape from the hypertechnologie screen and else and mainly a mechanichal experience. I think it’s true.
I really hope we will talk about playfield and shot soon. I’m tired of this connected innovation useless screen. I was really hoping for new toys like what you could see on visual pinball... I’m dreaming I know.
Maybe some are not aware but Punny factory pinball has a smoke mode in option... Isn’t that great... at least this is something really new.
It fills like RAZA has nothing new as far as toys go. It seems like all the money went to the pinbar and animations... I hope I’m wrong....

To succeed, you first need to have an appealing pinball, isn’t it? Again I might be part of a minority...

#11721 26 days ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Where The F&*CK has this thread gone.
[quoted image]

Well I just got home from a long day at work as soon as I get a couple drinks in me I’m ready to light it up because I’m really interested in this game .

#11722 26 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Loser Kid Podcast #44 was an interesting follow up.

international investors getting serious after this weeks news. NSFW.

#11723 26 days ago

Several times I have tried ”unfavorite" this thread.
But I just wait to see what happens next!

#11724 26 days ago

If they really wanted to have been innovative they would have put soft buttons on that Pinbar TM arranged much like piano keys. Instead of just controlling boring old right or left flippers, you would control the actual mechs on the playfield much like a switch manager on a multifaceted train track. Think of this as mini golf where you control both the golf ball and the trap doors all at the same time. I don’t know that it would actually sell, but innovative - yeah that would be innovative. And I’m talking more than just a magna save. I’m talking about physically reconfiguring the game and possible ball paths while you are playing the game.

#11726 26 days ago
images7W8RJY4F (resized).jpg
#11727 26 days ago

So yeah yeah I’m a newb but trying to understand DR.From the discussions I’ve watched it seems the sound is impressive .I bought my second pin IMDNprem this summer and the guy I bought it from had a sub hooked up to it but kept it .Without that as soon as I cross 32 volume I hear the crackle .I am keeping this one a long while but if I bought this new for say 8k out the door and had to throw another 300 or so into sound I’d be pissed .Also it seems like those elite 6 that went to Texas (without saying it) liked the gameplay .The backbox is a change and I’m sure we would all need to see it in person before forming an opinion .The pinbar ,although I can understand the skepticism,seems to attract a younger crowd and I would bet my bottom dollar most 40 n under would gravitate toward this game in a arcade setting .I was actually hoping they had options in the “story” to chose which way to go like when you would chose a path different things would happen but maybe in the future .Im really exited about a original theme for sure .The glass hydraulics IMO is a great idea as it would keep the underside free of fingerprints .Last but not least someone is finally going to do Goonies !! So what am I missing ? I’m not putting this pin on a pedestal at all but I think it fits in nice with what’s going on meaning stern is stern ,JJP hasn’t had a turd yet ,spooky is very unique .CGC is doing a great thing remaking the classics and who knows what’s next ,Metomorphic took big boy leap,all the others trying to turn the corner ,and now DR trying to breakthrough with a fresh identity !! I may be new but besides no shows going on I picked the right time to get into pinball!!!

#11728 26 days ago

Their Video assets seem great,...

imagesMY4D5B (resized).jpgimagesARL2OBQN (resized).jpg

...but I wanna see the line!!! ;___;

#11729 26 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Their Video assets seem great,...
[quoted image][quoted image]
...but I wanna see the line!!! ;___;

Where did you get those?

#11730 26 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Pinside precedent says “the game should have sex with you” jokes don’t start until a price is announced.
If the game DOES have sex with you I hope they iron out the rough clear coat and pointy metal issues before the game gets a full release.

You mean....before the player gets a full release.

#11731 26 days ago

Am I the only person who thinks this reminds me of the Tesla Cyber truck and its unveiling?
The stainless steel all over that looks like its trying too hard to be different?

#11732 26 days ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

The lockdown bar on Stellar Wars is a press-brake formed stainless weldament, the same exact type of construct as Pinbar. If the stainless is the same gauge, the bends would be the same, the sharpness the same, the pain, the same...

Ummm actually no. The gauge of the material has Nothing to do with the bend radius. That and the bend allowance is determined by the radius of the press die and knife used to make the bend. Any bend could be applied and that is determined by the spec used. You could put a 2" bend radius on there if you wanted with the correct tool.

#11733 26 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Ummm actually no. The gauge of the material has Nothing to do with the bend radius. That and the bend allowance is determined by the radius of the press die and knife used to make the bend. Any bend could be applied and that is determined by the spec used. You could put a 2" bend radius on there if you wanted with the correct tool.

Having said that though, it still looks every bit as painful as Stellar Wars, which my mate has and I quite enjoy playing, for a few games ... till my palms say "enough" already.

Space Invaders .... Fine on the palms!

#11734 26 days ago

Who needs a backbox these days. Just the screen would be fine. Easier to transport. Put the saved money into mechs and quality.

#11735 26 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Who needs a backbox these days. Just the screen would be fine. Easier to transport. Put the saved money into mechs and quality.

Agree, most machines are located towards a Wall anyway.

12
#11736 26 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Who needs a backbox these days. Just the screen would be fine. Easier to transport. Put the saved money into mechs and quality.

P3 originally tried no back box. It wasn’t well received.

#11737 26 days ago

A pin needs a back box even if it does nothing!! Looks so wrong without one. Plus when wondering about in an arcade it’s the first thing you see!

#11738 26 days ago

Without a back box a pinball machine is a coffee table with unusually long legs sitting in a corner.

#11739 26 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Where did you get those?

+1

#11741 26 days ago
Quoted from Daditude:

I am on just about every pinball website, group, FB page etc...and they are all this way. In fact, it is much the same all over the net because people tend to lose their filter via the web. Anonymity allows people to act more extreme than they would otherwise. Call it being a "keyboard warrior" or whatever, but it happens across threads, forums, and sites internet wide.

I wasnt going to actually comment on this but my initial thought was "thanks dad"....then i saw your user name and chuckled to myself slightly

#11742 25 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Where did you get those?

You can find the art assets to A LOT of the announced games if you follow deeproot studios social media channels and their artists portfolio postings.

I like that these not only look top notch but also very different to each other.
Like that Knights Games game (forgot the name) completely comic art 2D, while Food Truck looks like a modern 3D animated TV Show.

And looking at Food Truck concept art (also the GUI/ script in a way) this looks really way ahead and more captivating then you‘d expect...

...but what‘s it worth when they don‘t get games out of the door soon. :-/

Looking at this stuff Deeproot -at this very moment- has what American Pinball is lacking, and vice versa. *facepalm*

Oh and: 19

(Maybe I start adding concept art to every countdown posting...)

#11743 25 days ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Who needs a backbox these days. Just the screen would be fine. Easier to transport. Put the saved money into mechs and quality.

This is what will happen with no backbox.

#11744 25 days ago
Quoted from chad:

This is what will happen with no backbox.

Instant karma!

11
#11745 25 days ago

egomania: excessive vanity, pride or arrogance; self-importance

Robert has the passion, vision and resources to pull this off. He really wants to push pinball forward and this is a great quality to have.

However, looks so far like his ego will be his undoing and it’s sad experiment in the human condition playing out right in front of us.

First, his ego doesn’t allow for him to just build a great game like his competition and then iterate over time and slowly add innovation. For his ego has convinced him that he is so much better than everyone else that he must innovate every last part of pinball and completely change the game. He is too good to even play the traditional pinball design and manufacturing game and this will be his undoing.

Especially since the soul of pinball lies in the physical, the analog, the playfield design, the shots and how it all comes together. Much of the tech is just surrounding fluff that adds a bit so I think Robert has lost sight of this. Or should I say he has left the solar system on this.

Second, when someone with an ego issue like this heads a company, everyone underneath must succumb to being yes-men and will be afraid to speak their minds. Everything you see coming out of deeproot backs this up.

Endless lists of innovations and trademarks which are all individual manifestations of his ego and they all come into existence because everyone deepoot is making coin and don’t want to lose their jobs (especially now) if the speak their minds. Even the shipping box got through.

I still hope everything works out as I love pinball and its sad to see this reputational unravelling in spite of all the great people and ideas on display.

But the writing is on the wall now and the spiritual awakening must happen soon. Your clinical-level manic display of innovations, ideas, future game lists, trademarks and delays has left us all dumbfounded

The ego, unbridled ego at the root of all of this.

#11746 25 days ago

Plain and simple,Robert has made a fool of himself again.

15
#11747 25 days ago

Just leaked! Here are better pictures of the Pinbar and how it works.

20200926_101145 (resized).jpg20200926_101257 (resized).jpg
#11748 25 days ago
Quoted from Viggin900:

Just leaked! Here are better pictures of the Pinbar and how it works.
[quoted image][quoted image]

OMG what a fail. All stoves should have rotary hand dials and a ticking clock. What were those designers thinking!

#11749 25 days ago
Quoted from Viggin900:

Just leaked! Here are better pictures of the Pinbar and how it works.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Why is that one mounted vertically ? WTF . That should be down on the play surface where it's in the way and you can burn your hands.

10
#11750 25 days ago
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