Deeproot looks to be very popular if you look how many people are in this tread.
(Topic ID: 203700)
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Quoted from pinballwil:Deeproot looks to be very popular if you look how many people are in this tread.
It‘s mostly the same guys over and over again (that includes myself) but yes, I guess they stirred a lot of interrest.
From some initial „it looks different“ shock people mostly got intrigued.
Give the lockbar some rounded edges, cut the Pinbars glitchy software features to a working minimum (you can still update this later), and get this thing on the line.
Bermuda Triangle
Quoted from ronaldvg:They promised mechs that would do unimaginable stuff. RM talked about dozens of new toys that would interact with the ball and now they show this with a non working machine? Just wow.
Didnt Emagine that huh !
And not to mention the d!ck rattler speakers! Now Thats real interaction with the balls!
Can any one of the "Special 6" comment on why there was a professional camera crew there for the event? Doesn't make a lot of sense if the game didn't even play. That had to be a whole lot of awkward.
Toronto, ON
Someone mentioned that Pinside is too negative and that the crowd on Facebook is more positive and inclusive.
That’s because Facebook is filled with people who ask questions like “my ball is stuck what now”, “how much is this Raven worth” and “why hasn’t any company printed information on the bottom of a play field before”.
Facebook is filled with people who don’t know anything about pinball. That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
Roscoe, IL
Quoted from jwilson:Someone mentioned that Pinside is too negative and that the crowd on Facebook is more positive and inclusive.
That’s because Facebook is filled with people who ask questions like “my ball is stuck what now”, “how much is this Raven worth” and “why hasn’t any company printed information on the bottom of a play field before”.
Facebook is filled with people who don’t know anything about pinball. That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
I mean..... yeah sure. But we are a bunch of salty cunts here, too
Quoted from jwilson:Someone mentioned that Pinside is too negative and that the crowd on Facebook is more positive and inclusive.
That’s because Facebook is filled with people who ask questions like “my ball is stuck what now”, “how much is this Raven worth” and “why hasn’t any company printed information on the bottom of a play field before”.
Facebook is filled with people who don’t know anything about pinball. That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
Quoted from Doctor6:I mean..... yeah sure. But we are a bunch of salty cunts here, too
I am on just about every pinball website, group, FB page etc...and they are all this way. In fact, it is much the same all over the net because people tend to lose their filter via the web. Anonymity allows people to act more extreme than they would otherwise. Call it being a "keyboard warrior" or whatever, but it happens across threads, forums, and sites internet wide.
Quoted from Kkoss24:Cmon man there’s plenty to chose from now .Let the younger crowd (not me)get into the hobby.
Oh dude.... I've been barking up this tree for years and get shouted down by all the old folks every time.
You think Apple forums aren't filled with people screaming bloody hell every time Apple reveals a new update?
The thing is... Apple ships product.
Quoted from jwilson:That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
That's a good one. It must be such a burden for pinsiders to have all that knowledge and be forced to complain about everything.
Sydney
Quoted from cooked71:When’s the new iphone coming out?
The phone they haven't announced yet?
Imagine for a moment you are one of the reporters that attended. Six months or a year from now, Deeproot reaches out and offers you free airfare, hotel and travel expenses to return. Everything is solid but, you have to sign another NDA.
What do you do? And how would Deeproot go about finding credible replacements.
Quoted from Mr68:Imagine for a moment you are one of the reporters that attended. Six months or a year from now, Deeproot reaches out and offers you free airfare, hotel and travel expenses to return. Everything is solid but, you have to sign another NDA.
What do you do? And how would Deeproot go about finding credible replacements.
I think the lack of opinion shared and the following of the NDAs reveals that they all WANT another free trip in the future, that it's already been dangled. To come back for launch part 2.
Quoted from jwilson:Someone mentioned that Pinside is too negative and that the crowd on Facebook is more positive and inclusive.
That’s because Facebook is filled with people who ask questions like “my ball is stuck what now”, “how much is this Raven worth” and “why hasn’t any company printed information on the bottom of a play field before”.
Facebook is filled with people who don’t know anything about pinball. That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
If pinball (or any other hobby) becomes a "burden" you should quit! 
Quoted from Mr68:Imagine for a moment you are one of the reporters that attended. Six months or a year from now, Deeproot reaches out and offers you free airfare, hotel and travel expenses to return. Everything is solid but, you have to sign another NDA.
What do you do? And how would Deeproot go about finding credible replacements.
Wouldn't any reporter love to get the scoop? Especially if the scoop came with a free trip?
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Wouldn't any reporter love to get the scoop? Especially if the scoop came with a free trip?
Let’s face the dirty little secret here, every one of us would sign a NDA to see DR’s latest offering, so don’t deny it, especially if it was on their dime. We are suckers for new pin titles and if that title is coming from an unknown pin company, then even more intrigue is thrown in the blender. So the “super six” are not to be blamed for going, signing, or keeping their mouths shut.
Now as to how the whole “reveal” scheme and how dr went about it?!? Definitely Shady as phuck... the whole JPOP 2.0 vibe mentioned earlier is a real concern imo. Given the army of talent hired by them, any pre-launch/reveal/post launch issues they encountered is a big dripping red flag of WTF because NOBODY burns through this much capital and reveals the aborted fetus of a glitching unplayable machine to the rabid pinball press.
People mention all the amazing design talent they have, but all they can do is design games. You need all the amazing behind the scenes hardware / software engineers as well the ones who can turn these designs into a real pinball machine. The ones that turn a cad model or card board cutout into a real working production ready machine. We have heard nothing of these people and without them DR would be in the mess they are now... so they might have the designers but have they got all the other important people you never hear of as well?
It basically comes down to DR being waaaay too ambitious from the outset and lacking the leadership and probably team to pull off what they were attempting. It was always a high risk gamble and it isn't the first startup that thought they could change world by throwing money at it.
Now the only question is can they pivot and still produce games in my lifetime or will they just pull the plug and walk away.
It's too bad though because Stern really needs a high-volume competitor that cares about playfield quality. We'd all benefit from that.
Quoted from Mr68:Imagine for a moment you are one of the reporters that attended. Six months or a year from now, Deeproot reaches out and offers you free airfare, hotel and travel expenses to return. Everything is solid but, you have to sign another NDA.
What do you do? And how would Deeproot go about finding credible replacements.
LOL. When you do a "reveal" that is the entire point. It's to DISCLOSE shit Kim! Should be obvious right?
I said my peace to them, i hope they get OFF the worthless NDA threats and get busy putting out a game.
When you are bleeding $$$ out the ass end i would focus on putting games in those new purty boxes and shipping them.
Perfection is the enemy of really good.
What they should have done/do is just ship game number 1, RAZA, in a basic form and THEN on future titles start implementing all the different features like Pinbar and this and that.
People like myself will simply BUY a fun pinball machine and RAZA looks like it could be good if they fixed the ramp shots.
It's as good as an "original theme" you are going to get.
I would guess they are a minimum of a year away from building a shipable product. I have no special knowledge here, and do not know their manufacturing capability. But I have been involved with other efforts to go from design to product. It’s pretty clear that they are still at the stage of advanced prototype and there are too many holes that need to be filled in for any product to translate that to an assembly line. It seems as many have noted that whatever transpired was for their investors not us. And honestly if I were them I would bring in an established company making product to do much of this for them. Time, not dollars, is the limiting factor here and you want true to expertise, not what has been demonstrated thus far. First product builds when you don’t know what you are doing generally don’t go well
Quoted from russdx:People mention all the amazing design talent they have, but all they can do is design games. You need all the amazing behind the scenes hardware / software engineers as well the ones who can turn these designs into a real pinball machine. The ones that turn a cad model or card board cutout into a real working production ready machine. We have heard nothing of these people and without them DR would be in the mess they are now... so they might have the designers but have they got all the other important people you never hear of as well?
This is a really valid point, I don't remember which one but on a podcast I think it was rosh talking about getting Houdini into production and how Joe Balcer knows all these people and he'd call them up and get them to come in and help with stuff like mechanical engineering, etc. Being right in the middle of the pinball production capital of the world certainly helps but as they say, it's who you know. It probably helps that Joe was around for the start of WOZ manufacturing and of course has years of experience in general. I'm sure Nordman, Barry and others know a lot of these people too but being in Texas and possibly trying to do things differently aren't helping their cause.
Quoted from Bublehead:Let’s face the dirty little secret here, every one of us would sign a NDA to see DR’s latest offering, so don’t deny it, especially if it was on their dime. We are suckers for new pin titles and if that title is coming from an unknown pin company, then even more intrigue is thrown in the blender. So the “super six” are not to be blamed for going, signing, or keeping their mouths shut.
Now as to how the whole “reveal” scheme and how dr went about it?!? Definitely Shady as phuck... the whole JPOP 2.0 vibe mentioned earlier is a real concern imo. Given the army of talent hired by them, any pre-launch/reveal/post launch issues they encountered is a big dripping red flag of WTF because NOBODY burns through this much capital and reveals the aborted fetus of a glitching unplayable machine to the rabid pinball press.
Nobody except perhaps a very savvy and successful business owner looking for a way to avoid paying taxes from his other ventures
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Nobody except perhaps a very savvy and successful business owner looking for a way to avoid paying taxes from his other ventures
Here's my two cents on this one.
I tell my clients I want for us to pay as MUCH tax as we possibly can, taking into account all of the available deductions, because that means we MADE A LOT OF $$.
That does NOT mean we go around trying to LOSE $$$ offset big gains we might have elsewhere.
There is NOTHING about "saavy and successful business owner" that tries to generate LOSSES for tax purposes.
Not every investment is a WINNER, that's when you cull your LOSERS out and do some tax harvesting to offset those gains.
I promise you these guys are trying to be successful and make $$. And i hope they do!!
Did anyone notice yet where the left ramp return seems to have changed?
Looks like it feeds the inlane now.
Quoted from iceman44:LOL. When you do a "reveal" that is the entire point. It's to DISCLOSE shit Kim! Should be obvious right?
I said my peace to them, i hope they get OFF the worthless NDA threats and get busy putting out a game.
When you are bleeding $$$ out the ass end i would focus on putting games in those new purty boxes and shipping them.
Perfection is the enemy of really good.
What they should have done/do is just ship game number 1, RAZA, in a basic form and THEN on future titles start implementing all the different features like Pinbar and this and that.
People like myself will simply BUY a fun pinball machine and RAZA looks like it could be good if they fixed the ramp shots.
It's as good as an "original theme" you are going to get.
They are doing what they do best. Threaten/bully with litigation and have a pipe dream of a revenue stream based on patents. They aren't the first.
As Robert ever ran a successful product operations business?
NDAs usually just stipulate that a party is not allowed to disclose information about something. I've never heard of someone being released from an NDA, and after the fact not being allowed to publicly state their own opinion of something. What type of journalist would agree to this?
Totally bizarre!
Quoted from Fifty:The PinBar kind of reminds me of what people have been doing for years now on virtual pins.[quoted image]
I think their pinbar idea is good ... just their implimentation is clunky, and naughties looking.
The "touch display" could be the size of original DE like Hook etc. , that would nearly fit in a conventional size lockbar. Also have a Flat Surface, no edge where the screen finishes, like modern devices do. Even if it becomes a transparent insert into a metal surround. Flusshhhh! 
Corners ROUNDED!
Then it would be a hit! , at the same time as not so bothersome to those prefering something less harsh and obtrusive. Minimised a bit, it would look no more out of place than a "boom" button, or whatever.
Also for redundancy, retain a flamin start button!
Quoted from razorsedge:I think their pinbar idea is good ... just their implimentation is clunky, and naughties looking.
The "touch display" could be the size of original DE like Hook etc. , that would nearly fit in a conventional size lockbar. Also have a Flat Surface, no edge where the screen finishes, like modern devices. Even if it becomes a transparent insert into a metal surround. Flusshhhh!
Corners ROUNDED!
Then it would be a hit! , at the same time as not so bothersome to those prefering something less harsh and obtrusive. Minimised a bit, it would look no more out of place than a "boom" button, or whatever.
Also for redundancy, retain a flamin start button!
I like the idea. My kids think it's cool. I just don't think it's the level of innovation that they are claiming it to be. I will reserve all judgement until I have hands on experience.
Quoted from Fifty:The PinBar kind of reminds me of what people have been doing for years now on virtual pins.[quoted image]
don't give them any more ideas....
Quoted from jwilson:Someone mentioned that Pinside is too negative and that the crowd on Facebook is more positive and inclusive.
That’s because Facebook is filled with people who ask questions like “my ball is stuck what now”, “how much is this Raven worth” and “why hasn’t any company printed information on the bottom of a play field before”.
Facebook is filled with people who don’t know anything about pinball. That’s why they’re so positive - they are unburdened by knowledge or experience.
Just keep that in mind.
While I agree to some extent with what you are saying, two points:
-They are pinball players and fans, just newer and younger. That may be exactly the market deeproot is targeting with their product (and yes, they may be more forgiving)
-Being knowledgeable and experienced doesn't have to make someone negative and crusty 
Quoted from Fifty:The PinBar kind of reminds me of what people have been doing for years now on virtual pins.[quoted image]
Who, in their right mind, thinks putting ANYTHING between the lockbar and the lower arch is a good idea? I want to stare at my flippers and the area in front of them, anything that gets between me and seeing my flippers is a non-starter. Pinball is a game of hand-eye coordination, but only if the eye can see the fricken ball and the hand isn’t being nerve damaged by the crease those press-brake formed edges in the stainless are leaving in my palms. My brother owns a Stellar Wars, so yeah, first hand experience speaking here.
Even if the game completely worked as intended....I personally do not see much ground breaking innovation as was told would happen...ok some cosmetic changes to the backboard....check. The speaker/LCD area needs design rework IMO.
I guess the Pinbar is the groundbreaking innovation....although to me it’s a good idea I don’t see it as groundbreaking. It definitely is a good concept but needs some fine tuning in the design of it. Round the corners like a standard lockdown bar and have the screen flat to the surrounding metal like todays handheld devices.
Just seems like even if everything went right with the reveal that personally I feel it is very underwhelming.
Quoted from frolic:I think the lack of opinion shared and the following of the NDAs reveals that they all WANT another free trip in the future, that it's already been dangled. To come back for launch part 2.
I don't think anybody will be needing to make any more trips.
Quoted from Bublehead:Who, in their right mind, thinks putting ANYTHING between the lockbar and the lower arch is a good idea?
I rather Like it on POTCJJP but they must be Crazy!!!
Quoted from Bublehead:My brother owns a Stellar Wars, so yeah, first hand experience speaking here.
I didn't realize they were releasing Stellar Wars so it Must be the exact same! lol
Since I made a steve jobs comparison (and someone else posted the perfect clip from the movie), the more I think about it nearly every company starts small (which doesn't seem to be the path of deeproot).
Steve jobs didn't go "Hey I'm going to change computers and jump right to a macintosh!". Nope, him and wozniak built homebrew computers, then made the apple I, then got funding to build production apple II's.
Elon musk didn't come out of the gate "I'm going to build a giant car factory and make my own chassis and my own batteries". Nope, he borrowed the chassis and body from a lotus, bought off the shelf batteries, and made a small run of expensive $100k electric roadsters (which all sold).
Even Gary Stern did not go full blown 100k sq foot factory and start making pinballs out of the gate. Between Stern electronics and Data east pinball, he started a company called Pinstar, made conversion playfield kits for Bally Pinballs.
Not saying it can't be done.. I mean JJP managed to survive (but they almost didn't and had to get bailed out).
Quoted from DS_Nadine:It‘s mostly the same guys over and over again (that includes myself) but yes, I guess they stirred a lot of interrest.
From some initial „it looks different“ shock people mostly got intrigued.
Give the lockbar some rounded edges, cut the Pinbars glitchy software features to a working minimum (you can still update this later), and get this thing on the line.
I'm only here because I knew it was going to be a shit show when they hired JPOOP. I was not wrong!
Quoted from Bublehead:Who, in their right mind, thinks putting ANYTHING between the lockbar and the lower arch is a good idea? I want to stare at my flippers and the area in front of them, anything that gets between me and seeing my flippers is a non-starter. Pinball is a game of hand-eye coordination, but only if the eye can see the fricken ball and the hand isn’t being nerve damaged by the crease those press-brake formed edges in the stainless are leaving in my palms. My brother owns a Stellar Wars, so yeah, first hand experience speaking here.
Based on the video's posted in the last couple days, seeing the flippers and the area in front of them was a non-issue.
We all knew this day was coming, a touch screen on a pinball machine. Hardly innovative, just simply catching up with the surrounding world we now live in.
As a designer I could certainly have me some fun coming up with new ideas for it's use, but unless you have a highly-skilled penis, you will need to use one hand or the other to make all the swipy actions on the screen....meaning a disconnect from the game while you navigate the options, not a terribly good idea.
To be honest, the action button Stern came up with, that was a damn cool idea...because you can smack it, real hard and real quick. Gentely gliding your finger along a screen, just won't feel right, as there's no physical feedback.
And a QWERTY keyboard to enter your name? Just an excuse to leave 'comedy' names behind like 'Ivan Ardon 69'.
I just hope it doesn't add a tremendous amount of time and money to their budget, like JJP's ridiculous big TV and all it's nonsense. Keep it real, keep it pinball.
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:but unless you have a highly-skilled penis
Someone alert Ben Heck to another round object meant for humans to grasp.
Quoted from kermit24:NDAs usually just stipulate that a party is not allowed to disclose information about something. I've never heard of someone being released from an NDA, and after the fact not being allowed to publicly state their own opinion of something. What type of journalist would agree to this?
Totally bizarre!
They didn't release them from the NDA as a whole - they selectively decided which topics could be revealed (based on the material they let through the TWIP article) - which is why cody basically read the twip article and gave his commentary line by line.
Quoted from Yelobird:I didn't realize they were releasing Stellar Wars so it Must be the exact same! lol
The lockdown bar on Stellar Wars is a press-brake formed stainless weldament, the same exact type of construct as Pinbar. If the stainless is the same gauge, the bends would be the same, the sharpness the same, the pain, the same...
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