Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from proco:Just for you - 5 more minutes of low effort photoshop editing
(Yes, the lockdown bar looks bad when I just use the smear tool)
[quoted image]
Nice.
My mistake, they are already using the smaller 19in x 3.5in screen in the pinbar. They could use 16.3in x 2.25in to reduce the height. At that width, they would need to add a shooter gauge to make it look good.
Quoted from frolic:Found the original Zombie Yeti version. It's actually quite different.[quoted image]
Looks like Vanna White turning a letter.
Quoted from Mr68:The word Shill implies something sinister and I find that wholly unfair to Cary Hardy and Jeff at TWIP. I've been following them both for a long time and that is not my sense at all.
Would you prefer the word “promoters”? 
Quoted from Mr68:Looks like Vanna White turning a letter.
You need to get your eyes checked!!! 
Quoted from clempo:Nice.
My mistake, they are already using the smaller 19in x 3.5in screen in the pinbar. They could use 16.3in x 2.25in to reduce the height. At that width, they would need to add a shooter gauge to make it look good.
Does that size display exist? There is no way deeproot is doing this in enough volume to have custom sized panels created just for them.
Yeah, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.....the cabinet without the gap and the wraparound art is definitely eye catching and cool. The PF with the new hardcoat is something to be applauded too. The removable armor/glass is also groundbreaking. The only thing that smacks of over engineering is the Pinbar....this is an added cost that could have been just software...no need for an expensive screen, you could have just used the main display for all that content, minus the virtual buttons of course. But all in all this could've been a great reveal if it was planned better.
Robert if you're reading this....you're probably the reason why things are not done, you need to learn to walk before you can run.....slow down, and setup the line and start cranking out games....Also I hate to say it but you need to hire someone like Kaneda to help you with the marketing.
Anybody that expects this to be a sub 10k pin is sorely mistaken. With all the added glitter and glam its definitely north of 10k, how far north is anybodys guess.
Quoted from Betelgeuse:And let's not forget the real original translite, from back when it was Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland...
[quoted image]
You jerk...why'd you have to go and remind me of the game I was supposed to get when I signed up?
Quoted from Cheeks:You jerk...why'd you have to go and remind me of the game I was supposed to get when I signed up?
90% of the reason to order a BHZA was the opportunity to have Ben come to your house to setup the game (vase and beer not included).
Quoted from MikeS:90% of the reason to order a BHZA was the opportunity to have Ben come to your house to setup the game (vase and beer not included).
If there has been a weirder "upgrade" option on a pinball machine, I can't think of it.
Quoted from Cheeks:If there has been a weirder "upgrade" option on a pinball machine, I can't think of it.
This should have been the point JPOP was taken to the looney bin. I mean seriously WTF
Quoted from davjoszie:This should have been the point JPOP was taken to the looney bin. I mean seriously WTF
I love Ben's version of the story of hearing that for the first time.
There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.
I got a much better impression from the videos than the stills. I'm more interested in cool playfield mechs and great playing games than the cabinet tech.
I'll admit, some of the ideas are very cool. It's unfortunate that they don't seem to be anywhere close to manufacturing anything. I was definitely expecting them to be much further along in the process after all this time. They didn't even figure out the playfield clear-coating yet. I dunno - I'm actually less confident now than I was a couple of days ago that they can pull this off and be successful.
Coming up with ideas is the free part...
Roadmaps without a clear story of how you will execute on them are simply vaporware
Actually get a product to market (not just promoting it) is what separates the men from the boys.
Let's be real... Dutch Pinball showed a more complete product at it's expo party... and still took years after that to redesign it for real manufacturing and attempting to get it to market.
Deeproot laid out their vision... but after so many years people only care about 'do I want to play this and buy it'.
Quoted from Sinistarrett:I am going to try my best to never look at this thread again.
11 hours later...
Quoted from Sinistarrett:Yeah its definitely exiting time.
That was an epic fail of Deeproot proportions.
Lots of speculation as usual here but does anybody know for a fact that they have nothing for mfg lined up?
I really find that hard to believe, there is a difference between no physical assembly lines and not having something ready to hit the line. I think the later is the case here but wtf do I know.
Quoted from frolic:I love Ben's version of the story of hearing that for the first time.
I remember reading it but if anyone has a link please post it. It was shockingly stupid.
Quoted from Psw757:Lots of speculation as usual here but does anybody know for a fact that they have nothing for mfg lined up?
I really find that hard to believe, there is a difference between no physical assembly lines and not having something ready to hit the line. I think the later is the case here but wtf do I know.
7 months after intended launch... they still don't have final hardware. What does that tell you about their readiness to build?
Maybe they've got a new plan that they have yet to reveal... but clearly games are not ready to be built if you don't have all your parts.
Quoted from dr_nybble:There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.
I got a much better impression from the videos than the stills. I'm more interested in cool playfield mechs and great playing games than the cabinet tech.
Hey i just wanted to chime in and give an update on my conversation with Bob's lawyer.
I had asked him what about the Goodwill Agreement in an email and he took that as "me escalating this to a legal matter, call my lawyer", and basically don't ever call me again.
Well as you might imagine that didn't sit very well with me. . As such, i was able out all my issues and am content at this point.
Bottom line, they are working on the Goodwill Agreement terms without over promising anything this time so they want to try and get it right. So there you go for those that are interested and i happen to agree with that sentiment!
I relayed to his attorney that they need to stop with the defensive, snarky, litigious attitude.
And focus on getting a game out versus who leaked what under some NDA. It's irrelevant to the task at hand!!!
In the spirit of focusing on getting a game out, I'm hoping they de escalate the legal nonsense that will go nowhere from here on out.
People are gonna make positive comments and negative ones, don't take it personal! Despite being under extreme pressure.
The guy above said what i told the lawyer, "the only worse thing about being talked about in a negative way is NOT being talked about at all". That is when we as a community don't give a shit anymore about you.
At the end of the day, pinball people are "fickle" as hell. Put out a great game and they will line up to buy it no matter what happened before. Especially if you handle things the right way.
Hopefully it's onward and upward and the merits of what gets released speaks for itself. As i've said before, we should all be rooting for success as jobs and livelihoods are stake.
But just like Stern or any other manufacturer, let em have both the good and the bad! 
PinBar is stupid. It's ugly, uncomfortable and shows a very Boomer-esque misunderstanding of why Millenials and zoomers enjoy location pins in the first place - BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL AND RETRO.
In fact i'd argue pins would become more popular on location the FURTHER from a cell phone they get, not CLOSER.
I've only been in the industry a few years, but one thing I have learned is there is a lot of great ideas, that at the end of the day don't make it into a machine because the value is just not there. Do you want to spend $30 of your BOM to put a color diagram on the underside of the playfield? So, we then have a choice, we can have a drop down target mech or we can swap it out for a stand-up target so we can have a color diagram on the underside of the playfield. Assuming we do a good job building the game, few owners would have any need for that diagram on the underside -- so, I'll take the drop-down mech (preferably with a trip coil). There are dozens of lively (e.g. heated, loud, passionate) discussions and tough decisions on every machine about what to include and where to spend the BOM, and I'm sure that has been the case for pretty much the entire existence of pinball.
Now if BOM and sales price point don't matter, then a lot of this stuff is great. There is a not a design team in pinball who would not kill to have an unlimited BOM. In addition, a lot of what is here has either been done in the past or talked about in the past, but for the reasons already stated was removed or never added.
I think the touch pad display has a lot of potential, whether around game set up, high score entry, or in game selections, as sometimes two or three buttons is not enough. I would still want a physical button for things like magnet activation. As a programmer, having a 'keyboard' built it could certainly have value at times. However, there is nothing more important on a game than the lockdown bar and the flipper buttons. Those are your physical connection to the machine, if you mess with those, you sure has heck better get it right. We saw a game come out with a plastic lockdown bar and 'different' flipper buttons, and we know what players thought of that after playing it. Obviously none of us have touched this, but it certainly does not look comfortable or suitable for serious active game play. But until I touch it, hard to really know.
While The DMD was a great innovation for pinball, as it allowed for more complex rules as you could now communicate to the player more effectively (which we first saw with alphanumeric and that is why we got games like Diner and Taxi, as rules could now be more complex (also thanks to bigger processors/memory for voice calls, etc.). At the same time, and I know I am in the minority on this, I am not a big fan of the LCD in pinball. While it was natural evolution and they look great for spectators, and you can communicate a bit better to the player, and it adds a lot of eye candy, it also adds a HUGE expense to the development of a game, resulting in higher prices and not sure the value add is worth the higher cost. And you have to wonder what is being taken out of games to cover the cost of the display development. But the market place now expects it and that is one reason why games have less and/or prices have gone up. Now this Touch Bar adds another display that needs content. Obviously not as much as the main display (more like the secondary displays used on some games), but no matter what, that does not come for free.
As I said above, if BOM and sales price point don't matter . . .
Quoted from benheck:PinBar is stupid. It's ugly, uncomfortable and shows a very Boomer-esque misunderstanding of why Millenials and zoomers enjoy location pins in the first place - BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL AND RETRO.
In fact i'd argue pins would become more popular on location the FURTHER from a cell phone they get, not CLOSER.
Based on that logic, someone should make a new EM game with scoring reels and bells to attract the millennial/hipster crowd.
Quoted from Napoleon:Based on that logic, someone should make a new EM game with scoring reels and bells to attract the millennial/hipster crowd.
That's a bit far in the other direction. All that matters is what's under the glass, not outside it.
Quoted from rosh:I've only been in the industry a few years, but one thing I have learned is there is a lot of great ideas, that at the end of the day don't make it into a machine because the value is just not there. Do you want to spend $30 of your BOM to put a color diagram on the underside of the playfield? So, we then have a choice, we can have a drop down target mech or we can swap it out for a stand-up target so we can have a color diagram on the underside of the playfield. Assuming we do a good job building the game, few owners would have any need for that diagram on the underside -- so, I'll take the drop-down mech (preferably with a trip coil). There are dozens of lively (e.g. heated, loud, passionate) discussions and tough decisions on every machine about what to include and where to spend the BOM, and I'm sure that has been the case for pretty much the entire existence of pinball.
Now if BOM and sales price point don't matter, then a lot of this stuff is great. There is a not a design team in pinball who would not kill to have an unlimited BOM. In addition, a lot of what is here has either been done in the past or talked about in the past, but for the reasons already stated was removed or never added.
I think the touch pad display has a lot of potential, whether around game set up, high score entry, or in game selections, as sometimes two or three buttons is not enough. I would still want a physical button for things like magnet activation. As a programmer, having a 'keyboard' built it could certainly have value at times. However, there is nothing more important on a game than the lockdown bar and the flipper buttons. Those are your physical connection to the machine, if you mess with those, you sure has heck better get it right. We saw a game come out with a plastic lockdown bar and 'different' flipper buttons, and we know what players thought of that after playing it. Obviously none of us have touched this, but it certainly does not look comfortable or suitable for serious active game play. But until I touch it, hard to really know.
While The DMD was a great innovation for pinball, as it allowed for more complex rules as you could now communicate to the player more effectively (which we first saw with alphanumeric and that is why we got games like Diner and Taxi, as rules could now be more complex (also thanks to bigger processors/memory for voice calls, etc.). At the same time, and I know I am in the minority on this, I am not a big fan of the LCD in pinball. While it was natural evolution and they look great for spectators, and you can communicate a bit better to the player, and it adds a lot of eye candy, it also adds a HUGE expense to the development of a game, resulting in higher prices and not sure the value add is worth the higher cost. And you have to wonder what is being taken out of games to cover the cost of the display development. But the market place now expects it and that is one reason why games have less and/or prices have gone up. Now this Touch Bar adds another display that needs content. Obviously not as much as the main display (more like the secondary displays used on some games), but no matter what, that does not come for free.
As I said above, if BOM and sales price point don't matter . . .
I, for one, appreciate insider insight like yours. And I think we can now responsibly speculate that the next AP game will have an alpha-numeric display and plastic lockdown bar? 
Quoted from Napoleon:Based on that logic, someone should make a new EM game with scoring reels and bells to attract the millennial/hipster crowd.
You mean like Whoa Nellie/PBR/Primus?
Quoted from Napoleon:Based on that logic, someone should make a new EM game with scoring reels and bells to attract the millennial/hipster crowd.
You mean Pabst Blue Ribbon? Primus?
Look where you find those games on location... Exactly that demo.
Ben's point holds true though... Pinball is different, and stayed separate from Video games because of this physical, tactile medium. Loose that.. and it won't be long before someone is building 180deg dome simulators or wall sized monitors to try to 'innovate' for the game.
Quoted from benheck:PinBar is stupid. It's ugly, uncomfortable and shows a very Boomer-esque misunderstanding of why Millenials and zoomers enjoy location pins in the first place - BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL AND RETRO.
In fact i'd argue pins would become more popular on location the FURTHER from a cell phone they get, not CLOSER.
It really is dumb. The whole thing looks like a virtual pinball cab. The touchscreen looks slapped on with wide metal framing. I like the idea of having some sort of modern interface connected to a game but make it an app that can be used on a phone or a tablet. I don't want to tap on a touchscreen to activate a magna save or interact during a mode where a simple push button would do. Touchscreens are everywhere in our world. No one was clamoring for a touchscreen.
4g0d0z (resized).jpg
Quoted from okgrak:Does that size display exist? There is no way deeproot is doing this in enough volume to have custom sized panels created just for them.
They probably aren't. You would be amazed on how many weird sized displays you can find on aliexpress fairly cheaply because some other company has invested money into creating it on their needs. The slot machine industry has a lot of goofy display sizes. However, most of those displays aren't touchscreen so they may have had to tool up a custom touchscreen pad overlay.
I do like the lock bar display very much, but as we knew now, this piece (99,9% made in China or Taiwan) is the most important part in their machines.
If it fails, you cant do anything. Not even starting a game.
And all of us knew, how "reliable" touch screen displays are.
And this special formatted will be very hard to find.
Quoted from bigehrl:alpha-numeric display
TNA, a huge hit, fun shooting game, good price point, the primary scoring is on numeric displays, the display itself does very little, and no one cares or talks about it.
I agree with Ben, it is the physical nature of Pinball that makes it different and interesting and why it has survived even as the world becomes more virtual.
Interacting with the silver ball, that is what pinball is about.
Quoted from flynnibus:7 months after intended launch... they still don't have final hardware. What does that tell you about their readiness to build?
Maybe they've got a new plan that they have yet to reveal... but clearly games are not ready to be built if you don't have all your parts.
If it’s strictly a parts issue that is somewhat minor, many parts shortages currently across many industries due to supply chain disruption.
If everything is ready to go minus the parts then I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
Really no way to know for certain but I do like what they are trying to due in general and wish them success. Couple of these titles have my interest.
Quoted from Napoleon:Based on that logic, someone should make a new EM game with scoring reels and bells to attract the millennial/hipster crowd.
You'd be surprised how many novice players avoid the newer games at my house and stick to the EMs. The complexity of newer games seems to overwhelm non pinheads.
Is anything really needed in a pinball machine besides a wood plank, mono speaker, flippers, and some mechs? Point is that the added features of a nice display, glossy hand drawn art, hidef sound, painted trim, rgb lighting, cool toys, etc. all add to the experience of playing and ownership. JJP is celebrated for having these features and Stern criticized for having less. Pins are designed for entertainment after all and not utility like some toaster. I think DR is on the right path having unique features and new things to talk about.
Quoted from benheck:PinBar is stupid. It's ugly, uncomfortable and shows a very Boomer-esque misunderstanding of why Millenials and zoomers enjoy location pins in the first place - BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL AND RETRO.
In fact i'd argue pins would become more popular on location the FURTHER from a cell phone they get, not CLOSER.
This is also why I wondered about your preaching that pinball should be more like a video game during AC development. I basically had the same response to that. Do you still feel that way? Seems a bit contradictory.
Quoted from Palmer:Yo dawg, I heard you like innovation, so we put a touchscreen in your pinball machine!
LOL... yeah, didn't we go through this all already, when Jack (edit, or maybe it was more Pat) put a smartphone into pinball?
Reminds me whenever I play a DI owner's game. "Can't you control this with your smart phone too?" Usually get one of two responses, "you can?", or "Oh yeah, I forgot about that."
Was that both birthed and passed away with DI? I honestly don't know if it's gone or a forgotten part of the standard platform.
Quoted from benheck:PinBar is stupid. It's ugly, uncomfortable and shows a very Boomer-esque misunderstanding of why Millenials and zoomers enjoy location pins in the first place - BECAUSE THEY'RE MECHANICAL AND RETRO.
In fact i'd argue pins would become more popular on location the FURTHER from a cell phone they get, not CLOSER.
12 upvotes from me if I could. 1 upvote is not enough.
Also props to Rosh and his comments. ( by the way AP will continue to get more buys from me in the future )
september 2020 goes down in history as the month of failures for both videogames and pinball?
- sony ps5 launch is an utter mess
- jjp reveal is nothing more than a smoke and mirrors tease for another date
- deeproot unveiling doesn't
- microsoft xbox series s/x launch proves that even a planned launch can be as much of a mess an an unplanned one (see ps5 above)
Quoted from Psw757:If it’s strictly a parts issue that is somewhat minor, many parts shortages currently across many industries due to supply chain disruption.
If everything is ready to go minus the parts then I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
Remember when Stern was going to run MMR? And how long 'minor' parts issues held up production there? And that's with an existing factory and ready.
The Covid excuse is worn out. They were supposed to be SHIPPING games back in March (not just starting the idea of how to make them).. and have had plenty of time to fill in any 'gaps' since then. Yet, they don't even have a SAMPLE game built with the right pieces all this time later. That's not supply chain - that is simply 'It wasn't done'.
Every egotist before couldn't help themselves from showing off huge stock piles of parts to "prove" they were right on the cusp or ready... MrBally,HomePin,Andrew, etc.. I doubt Bob could hold himself back if he had the same opportunity.
He's been coy on the whole manufacturing portion all along... I can't help but think he's trying to be unconventional there too.. and I don't mean his stupid quad manufacturing non-sense.
Quoted from LoveNeverDiesGuy:Do you know how many times I've seen noobs hit the lockdown bar when a ball drains?
My drunk friends will not appreciate you calling them noobs.
Quoted from HighVoltage:This is also why I wondered about your preaching that pinball should be more like a video game during AC development. I basically had the same response to that. Do you still feel that way? Seems a bit contradictory.
Video gamey as far as game rules. You go through the mansion and can collect items that act as modifiers for the boss battle. You can never collect every item per boss run so the modifier stack is always different.
I mean, I think Rampage would make a great pin. Just whack the ball around and buildings fall over. You don't need to explain anything. It's why Jerry's best game by a country mile is Cannon Lagoon - balls sink ships boom done!
Quoted from TreyBo69:You mean like Whoa Nellie/PBR/Primus?
Quoted from flynnibus:You mean Pabst Blue Ribbon? Primus?
Look where you find those games on location... Exactly that demo.
Ben's point holds true though... Pinball is different, and stayed separate from Video games because of this physical, tactile medium. Loose that.. and it won't be long before someone is building 180deg dome simulators or wall sized monitors to try to 'innovate' for the game.
Those aren't EMs.
Quoted from JustEverett:You'd be surprised how many novice players avoid the newer games at my house and stick to the EMs. The complexity of newer games seems to overwhelm non pinheads.
I wasn't knocking EMs with that comment. I quite enjoy them.
Quoted from HighVoltage:LOL... yeah, didn't we go through this all already, when Jack (edit, or maybe it was more Pat) put a smartphone into pinball?
Reminds me whenever I play a DI owner's game. "Can't you control this with your smart phone too?" Usually get one of two responses, "you can?", or "Oh yeah, I forgot about that."
Was that both birthed and passed away with DI? I honestly don't know if it's gone or a forgotten part of the standard platform.
I think it’s a great idea to implement connectivity of a cell phone with a pinball if implemented correctly. Why not use tech that can connect with zero hardware costs to a game. I feel DI integration was poor as to what it allowed you to do...nobody wants to flip flippers using the phone.
The possibilities of connecting your phone as a extra display is pretty cool idea IMO. I could see a Rudy type video character taunting you as you played displayed on your phone near your flippers or wherever else you set your phone. A countdown timer could be integrated in intense situations. A display near the flippers or off the back box that can be used to convey info to the player, not so much to the spectators. I have lots of other interactive ideas you could do with it but I feel the extra display abilities would be it’s best feature.
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