(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

3 years ago



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#951 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

The unfortunate thing is, we know the road from showing a demo game at a pinball show to delivering games to customers is even longer than the road was getting that game to the show in the first place.
So nothing means anything until customers have games. The countdown to TPF means nothing to me, because manufacturing is the challenge, not creating the pinball.

Well, he says he want's to show them only when they're ready for delivering.
That's the REAL challenge and I'm looking forward what comes out of this.

18
#952 2 years ago

Reading this thread; deeproot / Robert sounds very much like the bluster coming out of Elon Musk and his “boring company”. We’re going to revolutionize tunneling / pinball! How? Innovation! The system! Trust me! I know more about it than companies who have been in the industry 40 years! The laws don’t apply to us because we’re innovating. Quad something!

Honestly the braggadocio is mostly to con investors, which he’ll need. I don’t doubt pinball will come out of this approach but I do doubt this will be a profitable enterprise long term.

I much prefer to humble bootstrapped approach Charlie Emerie took with Spooky. Most successful companies don’t take huge sums of investor money and become an overnight success. Most new companies stay small and lean so they can iterate quickly and recover from smaller failures. That way you are not learning huge expensive lessons with borrowed money.

#953 2 years ago

Hold up there. Elon Musk is positioned to be the savior of humanity if his plans come to fruition.

There is a stark difference between him and your run of the mill, egotistical, mid size CEO.

#954 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Well, he says he want's to show them only when they're ready for delivering.
That's the REAL challenge and I'm looking forward what comes out of this.

We'll reconvene here in a year and see how we're doing.

#955 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Hold up there. Elon Musk is positioned to be the savior of humanity if his plans come to fruition.
There is a stark difference between him and your run of the mill, egotistical, mid size CEO.

Savior of humanity? LOL. Guy’s a fraud, who got really lucky early in his career. Remember the “solar roof”? At the announcement, the demo panels weren’t working solar tiles. Elon could crush at boutique pinball because he already knows how to show up with just a box of lights

#956 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Hold up there. Elon Musk is positioned to be the savior of humanity if his plans come to fruition.
There is a stark difference between him and your run of the mill, egotistical, mid size CEO.

Um, how?

Their electric cars? The CO2 footprint of the average Tesla is so high (due to the large capacity Lithium-Ion batteries) that you have to do huge mileages for years to emit less CO2 overall than an average family car over the same period.

For the average owner, it's multiples worse. As of now, pure ICEs, mild hybrids, or small city-type electric cars are vastly 'greener' and more sustainable. In terms of environmental impact and resources expended, Teslas are the most burdensome cars on the planet.

Or you mean building the same 70 year old rocket designs but slightly re-useable?

#957 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

We'll reconvene here in a year and see how we're doing.

We'll be doing fine I hope. Let's see how they do.

#958 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Remember the “solar roof”? At the announcement, the demo panels weren’t working solar tiles

Do you realize how many demos don't work because of aggressive timelines? You should read up how apple faked their first iphone presentation until the engineers could finish eliminating bugs before they started shipping.
How often does someone start up a brand new car company and last more than a year? Or a rocket company that successfully launches a rocket and sends satellites into space?

The Tesla roadster started shipping in 2008, that's 10 years. In another 3 years it'll surpass Scion, a brand created by Toyota that failed to create a market.

#959 2 years ago
Quoted from daudioguy:

panzerfreak - I will only address the audio work: DR is 'paying the cost to be the boss' in this regard. It is my intention for DR machines to have my best work and they have already hired another full-time audio guy. Let's see....how many other pinball companies have one full-time audio guy? That would be none. So DR is addressing what it takes to have a great audio package associated with each DR title. There are also other exciting audio related developments that NDA and digression prevent me from revealing. Let's just say that they are very cool.
The time between now and March will be hard for all of us. For DR it will be hard work to get to the reveal with Robert's vision intact and for the community it will be hard to wait.
I couldn't do anything without a substantial amount of optimism and I have high hopes for DR.
ddt

That's great to hear David. I really enjoy the audio work you have done on your games, especially the JJP titles. Looking forward to seeing what Deeproot reveals.

#960 2 years ago

Deep Root obviously has a goal in mind! They are spending a great deal of money and acquiring very talented, respected and resourceful people. Is JPOP a nail in the tire? Yes of course he is, but at this point the more the company grows the less of a factor he becomes. Eventually a bad tire is replaced. I don't think the team they are acquiring would come together on a weak foundation and the vision is obviously not marred by one tainted soul. I hope DR develops some very revolutionary products as suggested by other pinsiders such as hybrid playfields and cabinets. It's way past time for advanced material progression in these pinball areas. This can surely result in decreased cost and improved or equal quality production. The problem I see often in this hobby is unwarranted criticism and reluctance to accept or endorse change. Stern would have continued building "Hyundai's" until JJP came along and produced a Benz. Now I know everyone is not in the Benz cost market but years later Hyundai now makes very feature rich and performance competitive vehicles at a significantly lower cost than Mercedes, BMW, etc. I'm not saying Stern increased their quality at the rate Hyundai did nor do they have the motivation as an established long term entity. However, I don't see why a new company like DR with determination cant do the same thing based on forward thinking and a vision. The capitalistic operation model is often implemented but not mandatory. Good luck Deeproot I'm pulling for your success 110%!!!!

#961 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

There is a stark difference between him and your run of the mill, egotistical, mid size CEO.

Remember.. this guy isn't just a business owner... he is first a sales man trying to get people to buy into his funds/ideas. He comes from the insurance world.. and manipulating for gain. This isn't "our company is the best!" swagger... this is "you don't want to miss out on this amazing opportunity..." projection.

15
#962 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Remember.. this guy isn't just a business owner... he is first a sales man trying to get people to buy into his funds/ideas. He comes from the insurance world.. and manipulating for gain. This isn't "our company is the best!" swagger... this is "you don't want to miss out on this amazing opportunity..." projection.

I got nothing more to loose... my money was already squandered by Jpop. I've been asked for nothing more.
Please tell me why I shouldn't "root for Deeproot" to succeed? (feel free to use that if you like) (:

I got NOTHING but a t-shirt from Jpop. He stopped responding to me a long while back. Robert has reached out to me both by email and telephone. Answered any question I had and offered me "something" in the way of compensation for Jpop's failure.

I'm good waiting till TPF '19 and see what develops.

#963 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I got nothing more to loose... my money was already squandered by Jpop. I've been asked for nothing more.
Please tell me why I shouldn't "root for Deeproot" to succeed? (feel free to use that if you like) (:

For those that are lined up for getting a 'game' from them... sure nothing to lose but more crushed feelings. So sure, you want the best possible outcome.

I'm just putting the bravado in perspective... It's more in character with his skillset... than it is his passion.

Being in sales, you can separate passion for success, from passion for the end-game of the customer. They don't have to be exclusive... but don't confuse one for the other

#964 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

For those that are lined up for getting a 'game' from them... sure nothing to lose but more crushed feelings. So sure, you want the best possible outcome.

Did I miss the Deeproot sign up or deposit list? I don't see any "crushed feelings" possible if their product is produced and available for purchase at the buyers discretion without deposit.

#965 2 years ago

The more people crap on Deeproot, the more endeared I am to them (like Lebron James). I was turned off by Robert Mueller's arrogant comments, but those have really scaled back.

The only facts here is that there is a new pinball company with a slew of qualified people working together to bring several new games to market at the time they announce them and they aren't asking anything from anyone while they do it.

Also, DR never said they'd have a $50k game. You can expect these to be in the $3,500-$10,000 range.

Barry Oursler has been around our local pinball hangout here in San Antonio and he's excited about what they are working on. It's actual pinball (not pin2000). I think the innovation is the ability to tweak rulesets more (among other things) and possibly a resin playfield (he said you could hit it with a sledgehammer). Let's see what happens though.

#966 2 years ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

DR never said they'd have a $50k game.

Didn't they mention Alice In Wonderland and at least one model for $50K ?

LTG : )

#968 2 years ago

It's not. Kaneda mentioned a $50k game and Rovert was asked in a previous interview from twip (I believe). I'm going from memory, dont care enough to research it. I remember it being along the lines of, what about a $50k game? And the answer being, "sure, why not?" None of it from DR in regards to top end, only bottom.

#969 2 years ago

When you are spending other people's money, and a whole lot of it, it's all in, balls to the wall.....no choice

You have to create the possibility of success for the investors that dropped in the coin.

Will this pinball venture work out? Who knows, but the only people that have their ass on the line are Robert and crew that took OPM.

As far as I'm concerned, i love competition and i hope DR can make it work with the talent assembled.

Whatever it is, let's hope its NOT the JJP model. Great pins but $10k per isn't going to cut it long term.

#970 2 years ago
Quoted from rgb635:

Did I miss the Deeproot sign up or deposit list? I don't see any "crushed feelings" possible if their product is produced and available for purchase at the buyers discretion without deposit.

If you expect a Ferrari and get delivered a yugo.... the fact you got a yugo won’t change your disappointment. Just getting something... can still result in a lot of upset people. They need to get something they think is worth their money... else there will still be bad blood. That’s just reality.

#971 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If you expect a Ferrari and get delivered a yugo.... the fact you got a yugo won’t change your disappointment.

Yes, but what if you expected nothing and someone gave you a Yugo?

#972 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes, but what if you expected nothing and someone gave you a Yugo?

Huh?

#973 2 years ago
yugo.gif
#974 2 years ago

A resin playfield is a big innovation as it won't dimple and it lends itself to multiple surface types. They don't need to worry about whether 8 ply or 12 ply walnut is good enough and whether their source for blanks is consistent. A flat playfield could include an area with raised mounds and craters like the moon's surface.

Other possible design elements - use air to move the ball via suctioning instead of a vertical mounted magnet. I'd like to see magnets deployed in place of all coils, vuks, flippers and slingshots. Doing that and swapping arm and rollover switches with optos would kill their need for the common playfield parts used today. Ok maybe keep the flippers,but everything else has got to go. Poured material is probably easier to embed and attach wire forms and ramps to also. I hope they add a loop ramp and corkscrew ramp to their standard repertoire and that they raise playfield glass height to allow balls to be launched from end of pf to the other. Could we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches? I'm serious, can we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches and a magnet grab it, please?

All of these would combine to simplify DR's manufacturing process and Operators would see lower operating cost, minimum maintenance and games that work. But innovation costs more money than the traditional way to do things until you implement in volume. For that reason DR won't be producing many $3.5k games. But if their pins are fun and worth the cost, they can meet their objectives and maybe they will succeed. What other innovations could DR's pinball future hold?

#975 2 years ago

Some people are stupid

IMG_0390.GIF

or just poor dumb bastards.
IMG_0392.GIF

There's a few winners

IMG_0391.GIF

and dreamers.

IMG_0393.GIF

But some guys are nuts!

#976 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes, but what if you expected nothing and someone gave you a Yugo?

Exactly. And all of these "what ifs" remind me of "if pigs had wings they could fly".

We had ZERO, now maybe we at least have a Yugo

#977 2 years ago

My dad drove a Yugo and it was awesome.

#978 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

A resin playfield is a big innovation as it won't dimple and it lends itself to multiple surface types. They don't need to worry about whether 8 ply or 12 ply walnut is good enough and whether their source for blanks is consistent. A flat playfield could include an area with raised mounds and craters like the moon's surface.
Other possible design elements - use air to move the ball via suctioning instead of a vertical mounted magnet. I'd like to see magnets deployed in place of all coils, vuks, flippers and slingshots. Doing that and swapping arm and rollover switches with optos would kill their need for the common playfield parts used today. Ok maybe keep the flippers,but everything else has got to go. Poured material is probably easier to embed and attach wire forms and ramps to also. I hope they add a loop ramp and corkscrew ramp to their standard repertoire and that they raise playfield glass height to allow balls to be launched from end of pf to the other. Could we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches? I'm serious, can we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches and a magnet grab it, please?
All of these would combine to simplify DR's manufacturing process and Operators would see lower operating cost, minimum maintenance and games that work. But innovation costs more money than the traditional way to do things until you implement in volume. For that reason DR won't be producing many $3.5k games. But if their pins are fun and worth the cost, they can meet their objectives and maybe they will succeed. What other innovations could DR's pinball future hold?

I’m curious about the weight factor when using resin or an epoxy composite - I have some guitars made from a similar substance and they are HEEEEEAVY!! when we have 350 pound games coming and going from JJP, an additional heavy play field is a bit of a concern. One thing though, it definitely will never dimple or crack from play.

#979 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Yes, but what if you expected nothing and someone gave you a Yugo?

Do you really think all the JPOP people are going to be happy regardless of what they get?

Like I said... getting something isn't the same thing as being happy or satisfied. Plenty of people are going to have expectations of X.. and get Y... and be upset. The only way you avoid this is if the deeproot games somehow blow everyone away and is beyond any expectations.

#980 2 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

I’m curious about the weight factor when using resin or an epoxy composite - I have some guitars made from a similar substance and they are HEEEEEAVY!! when we have 350 pound games coming and going from JJP, an additional heavy play field is a bit of a concern. One thing though, it definitely will never dimple or crack from play.

I think the bigger problem is that a durable, stable, non-toxic resin is likely to be pretty damned expensive if you want to guarantee it'll still be in good shape semi-indefinitely.

If they're doing resin pfs *much* cheaper than any of the industry incumbents are doing with wood, then you can very likely expect them to come with major drawbacks.

#981 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

then you can very likely expect them to come with major drawbacks.

Like not hold screws and posts good like on the Bally plastic playfields ?

LTG : )

#982 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Like not hold screws and posts good like on the Bally plastic playfields ?
LTG : )

That, warping, expansion, contraction, brittleness, printed layers delaminating, discolouration that could effect the printed layers, way it ages effecting the adhesive used to bind inserts' bonding etc etc. Though I suppose it would theoretically be possible to use a clear resin and dispense with inserts.

#983 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If you expect a Ferrari and get delivered a yugo.... the fact you got a yugo won’t change your disappointment. Just getting something... can still result in a lot of upset people. They need to get something they think is worth their money... else there will still be bad blood. That’s just reality.

As with any item available for sale, you have the option to buy it or not depending on whatever criteria you feel is acceptable for you. If there is no money required before the purchase the risk is minimal for a warranted item and intelligent consumer. Research before you buy. If it is a new item/company and you don't feel comfortable purchasing new then wait for them to prove there reliability. The major point here is DR seems to be on task for providing a "choice" in the hobby that we can all participate in freely! I bought a new BMW recently because I wanted one but I also have an 20 year old Suzuki SUV that I never expected to last this long. I chose not to trade in my Suzuki because it has proven itself reliable but the Suzuki automobile company is basically defunct in the USA now! Others will say BMWs are junk... I had a choice and made it based on research and availability but at least I had a choice.

#984 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Do you really think all the JPOP people are going to be happy regardless of what they get?

Let's say happier if they get anything out of this.

Honestly, I'm still not expecting anything.

I came to terms with the loss long ago. I wouldn't have pursued a law suit anyway so I have nothing more to lose.

Speaking for myself, I will consider anything I get from DR a pleasant surprise, as they weren't responsible for my loss.

#985 2 years ago
Quoted from rgb635:

or sale, you have the option to buy it or not depending on whatever criteria you feel is acceptable for you.

The conversation was about the JPOP exchange deal... your lost money towards a DR game(s)

#986 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Exactly. And all of these "what ifs" remind me of "if pigs had wings they could fly".

Sorta' like Korn's apology to Gene for completing Big Bang Bar... "When Pigs Fly?"

#987 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I aint seen nothing yet.
All I see is talk about Ferraris at Yugo prices, and a mention of a $50,000 game that I would never want in the first place.

I would want it, if I couple afford a $50,000 pin means I'm rich AF!

#989 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Savior of humanity? LOL. Guy’s a fraud, who got really lucky early in his career. Remember the “solar roof”? At the announcement, the demo panels weren’t working solar tiles. Elon could crush at boutique pinball because he already knows how to show up with just a box of lights

I thought he was being sarcastic. Please wolfmarsh please tell me you were being sarcastic!

#991 2 years ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

My dad drove a Yugo and it was awesome.

Compared to a 1954 VW Beetle

#992 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Like not hold screws and posts good like on the Bally plastic playfields ?
LTG : )

That was a very long time ago. I believe that materials have progressed. And we have a wider selection.

#993 2 years ago

I want a steak for dinner, but can only afford a Big Mac. I wish the local steakhouse knew deeproot's business secrets.

#994 2 years ago
Quoted from jfre81:

I want a steak for dinner, but can only afford a Big Mac. I wish the local steakhouse knew deeproot's business secrets.

You're in better shape then me. I can only afford a Happy meal!

#995 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

You're in better shape then me. I can only afford a Happy meal!

But you're getting fries, a drink and a toy. I can only afford the burger.

#996 2 years ago

I'm curious how many pinballs they "need" to sell to justify the cash that is being blown.

Remember when Andrew Heighway was talking about 400 machines a month (back in the early days), and everyone responded with "who are you going to sell those to?"

Somewhere there is a plan, with their "quad assembly" and the numbers they'll be producing.

But so far all we have seen is them promoting to the usual "Pinball Show Crowd", which really only works if you are a Spooky.

#997 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

But so far all we have seen is them promoting to the usual "Pinball Show Crowd", which really only works if you are a Spooky.

I dont know that they've really marketed much at all, to this point. The banners at TPF were just for them to have a presence at the local show (that they sponsored). I wouldn't equate that to the beginning and end of Deeproot's marketing strategy.

I also wouldn't compare anyone else to Andrew Heighway.

Let's save the, "I told you so's" for when failure happens or promises are broken. I wouldn't share my business plans with the peanut gallery either.

#998 2 years ago

Coming in here very late to this thread but it is very interesting. There are a good number of industry folk who appear to be involved. That certainly has me intrigued.

Let's assume that they do come out strong and are a serious contender. They will either join the movement of selling expensive pins or they will come in with a more aggressively price pin(s). If they do that and have great product then this could bring Stern back in line and could pose a problem for JJP.

Not sure where this will go but Christmas 2018 may be the perfect time to start selling off older titles that are still inflated at the moment... Not sure what this would do to the price point and value of my JJPOTCLE.

#999 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I got NOTHING but a t-shirt from Jpop.

Wait!, what? You got shirt? Some kind of favoritism going on here, I didn’t even get a shirt from JPOP.. you are one of the lucky ones

#1000 2 years ago

Check out TWIP Podcast Episode 3 to hear Steve Bowden discuss his new job as Deeproot Code/Ruleset Designer and what new he plans to bring to pinball.

https://www.facebook.com/1978540499041059/posts/2195208860707554/

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