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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#901 5 years ago
 
GIC

goingincirclez

GIC Pinball

9y 116K 2,835 27

I was not affected by any of the pre-order implosions and in all likelihood I still am unlikely to afford a NIB game, so my interest is on the periphery... but good gad zeus is this ever fascinating to watch develop.

From the mysterious unveiling of the Deeproot name to the arrogant followup braggadocio... the messy play to get tied up with ZW fallout and the ongoing claims / promises therein... the seemingly more calculated efforts behind the scenes to follow through... and the wholesale assimilation of some very respected big-time talent from both legacy and up-and-coming pools... it's astounding! The talent pool especially. Some members of the team might have been desperate, sure... but others had a lot more to put on the line.

They can't all be fools (can they?) so we're witnessing the birth of something truly impressive, or a wholesale con like never before been seen in any industry. And given the seemingly impossible "from scratch" timeline, it's almost impossible to predict the outcome: maybe DR will completely succeed and shock, or maybe they will implode on Day 6.

My cynical "adbusters" side says this is the marketing line to keep us all interested until then. Well played.

Of course any "success" might only be technical... maybe the planned revolution will be another Pin2000... again, the risk is such that who can predict for certain? When's the last time pinball took that kind of risk? Since then the changes have all been evolutionary, not revolutionary. (Would any "revolution" be too much to still be "pinball"? Remember, flippers were revolutionary in their day).

I find Mr. Mueller's public posts amusing, as they reflect the sociopathic tendencies of most industrial figureheads. Ford, Edison, Sloan, Musk, et al... even directors like Kubrick and Cameron... were/are brash, arrogant, and seemingly blind to the impossibilities ahead of them while conveniently ignorant of their own stumbles. Elon Musk is probably the nearest and most current analogy: love or hate the guy and his actions, whether Tesla ultimately succeeds or fails, you have to respect what he's managed to accomplished through completely unorthodox behavior and in spite of his own provocative quotes. And by this analogy I'm not granting undue credit, but just pointing out there IS a pattern with visionaries. So with no requirement to pay in from my own end, I cut the guy some slack. He's obviously accountable to other money including his own, and quite a few livelihoods on the line...

Really exciting to watch this play out. Whatever happens, good or bad, should be an interesting touchstone for pinball history.

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#902 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

I'm very hopefull that all will be great (we have nothing to loose anyway) but you should hire a PR Person that kinda, uh... smoothens the Statements a little.

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#903 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from bobukcat:

The more talented and experienced people they hire the more I keep thinking there must really be something to this guy's "vision" for pinball. JPOP doesn't count because his situation was such that any offer he'd almost HAVE to accept, but all these other guys were not in the same situation, though I guess you could say Nordman fell for Heighways' BS. Time will tell.

Barry Oursler, too.

But at least they're not taking anyone's money, and there are yet to be any rumours of either absent or poor pay of staff or creditors. So one could look at that as a mark of distinction.

There still seems to be fud, hyperbole and misleading stuff, though.

"In fact, we have received or are ordering all machinery needed to create nearly every component of a pinball machine in house."

Seems both improbable & hyperbolic, and likely to cause serious issues. How many startups in any sector choose to manufacture a disparate set of components made from totally different materials, using different machinery and techniques, in a complex assembled product using hundreds if not several thousands of components? The answer is that they don't. Because it's less efficient, more costly, and particularly in a startup scenario likely to lead to serious quality problems.

He also appears to be trying to say that DP / Pinball Brothers will profit or are profiting from the situation they (mis)managed, or took on in the case of the latter. Unless one counts their salaries, I doubt DP have or will ever (at this juncture) profit from TBL. Pinball Brothers profit? They've likely lost several million, up until now, and the chances of a dramatic turnaround if they choose to continue under a new structure seems extremely unlikely to yield any significant profit.

"For example, we assessed that the Hobbit COGS which we estimate to be around $6,750.00 would have cost us less than half of that for a similar build using our standard but with JJP’s specs. Even cheaper if we built it from scratch using our standard alone. It’s been a great teaching tool."

Building it to their spec at less than half the cost? There's no such thing as a free lunch, so that would likely have to involve MUCH cheaper materials. Perhaps they've managed to find alternatives which match the quality for much less money, but it seems doubtful. Two most expensive parts of JJP machines are the (high quality) cabinets and playfields. They're not going to do those at a fraction of the cost whilst maintaining 'spec' in wood. That's impossible. Makes me think they may intend to do metal cabs and resin pfs, or something along those lines. They could certainly use much cheaper LCD, a Pi / Arduino / etc like computer instead of a far more expensive PC, and much cheaper boardsets .. but again that wouln't really be to spec. I also wonder if they have some kind of plan to dispense with coils.

Assuming the intent and ambition are legit, the most ridiculous thing is launching with 3 machines. There absolutely will be serious issues they have to resolve with their first wave of product, however good they are, and having to try and deal with potentially 3 or more products from the offset will make that far more difficult to manage.

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#904 5 years ago
 
DAV

InfiniteLives

Pinside member

10y 125K 4,555 283

so they are just getting a building ready and are waiting on machines to produce parts and build the games yet they still are on track to have at least 3 finished games by March of 2019 or maybe sooner?

That would be amazing, I wait here with bated breath

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#905 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from rubberducks:

I also wonder if they have some kind of plan to dispense with coils.

I have an 80s child pinball machine where 2 slings and 3 Pops are all powered by one motor trough a clever mechanism. They all work individually.

The Pops in a Zizzle machine all hang on the same coil as well I think (and all 3 are fired up if the coil powers up).

99% of the time that's totally sufficient.

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#906 5 years ago
 
WOZ

PanzerFreak

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 123K 12,934 19

There's no way DR is going to make a JJP game for half the cost unless a lot of cuts in materials, quality and software development are made. DR likely isn't factoring in the cost of JJP's software, animation and audio work which are leading the industry in terms of quality and depth.

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#907 5 years ago
 
DW

Fintan_Stack

Inactive member

GB Uk

12y 48,800 96 1 9

A lot of you guys are way too harsh on Deeproot. Yes, everybody hates JPOP. But at least with DR taking him on there is some chance of getting something for your long-gone money. And now they are saying they'll help out victims of Dutch and Heighway. Cut them some slack and see what happens.

There is clearly a lot going on with these guys. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with. It's new pinball from a company that has their own money and just about every available well known designer onboard. Oh, and they are not asking anybody for any money! That's a refreshing change.

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#908 5 years ago
 
GIC

goingincirclez

GIC Pinball

9y 116K 2,835 27

Quoted from rubberducks:

Building it to their spec at less than half the cost? There's no such thing as a free lunch, so that would likely have to involve MUCH cheaper materials. Perhaps they've managed to find alternatives which match the quality for much less money, but it seems doubtful. Two most expensive parts of JJP machines are the (high quality) cabinets and playfields. They're not going to do those at a fraction of the cost whilst maintaining 'spec' in wood. That's impossible. Makes me think they may intend to do metal cabs and resin pfs, or something along those lines. They could certainly use much cheaper LCD, a Pi / Arduino / etc like computer instead of a far more expensive PC, and much cheaper boardsets .. but again that wouln't really be to spec.

You hit on the biggest thing I took from that interview: "The Spec". Just what is this spec? As you point out the existing specs will be tough to match for any profitable fraction of the cost. Nevermind the startup costs of building a whole new production line from scratch. Does a new-install production line just turn-and-churn-key from day one? And there's less than a year to get 3 machines revealed? Not gonna happen...

...if one assumes "The Spec" to match is one of the existing four cited: WMS, Stern, JJP, Spooky. Clearly DR is planning on doing things VASTLY different. The "DR Spec" is, at this point, arbitrary. They have the luxury of defining what it is. The onus upon them is to revolutionize this spec to make it easy and affordable, while convincing the public that it's "pinball" in the familiar sense.

Their price range may hold clues: I bet there is some kind of hybridized vitrual/video pinball component at the low end... with the traditional/physical games occupying the price space we are accustomed to. Maybe a "virtual pin" can yet be enhanced in ways we've not seen, and be cheaper to build en masse at scale. OTOH there's no way someone is going to plunk down 50K on a premium Alice in Wonderland if it trades the mechanisms and engineering expected of a "pinball" for some cheaper, lesser "equivalency".

Post last edited 5 years ago: “Me is teh typo king”

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#910 5 years ago
 
CBM

spfxted

Pinside member

US Saddle River, NJ

12y 147K 24,657 4 9

Quoted from Fintan_Stack:

A lot of you guys are way too harsh on Deeproot. Yes, everybody hates JPOP. But at least with DR taking him on there is some chance of getting something for your long-gone money. And now they are saying they'll help out victims of Dutch and Heighway. Cut them some slack and see what happens.

There is clearly a lot going on with these guys. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with. It's new pinball from a company that has their own money and just about every available well known designer onboard. Oh, and they are not asking anybody for any money! That's a refreshing change.

True, but you just have to question what they do when they hire someone that has fucked over plenty of people and the pinball community. They either don't give a shit....OR, they are really trying to make things right. Only time will tell....

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#911 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from spfxted:

True, but you just have to question what they do when they hire someone that has fucked over plenty of people and the pinball community. They either don't give a shit....OR, they are really trying to make things right. Only time will tell....

Maybe it's just the most obvious thing: JPop made such great games that people were willingly blowing money up his poopyhole and tha fact that he did mess up doesn't change any of that. There are still a lot of guys around that would buy a modern TotAN or ToM like game if it's reasonably priced.

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#912 5 years ago
 
ABB

Aurich

Mods and Opinions

US Torrance, CA

11y 144K 23,395 3

Quoted from goingincirclez:

They can't all be fools (can they?) so we're witnessing the birth of something truly impressive, or a wholesale con like never before been seen in any industry

His checks clear. I wouldn’t read more into it than that. Predicting much else seems pointless.

The only thing that’s for certain is pinball is always harder than people think.

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#913 5 years ago
 
AXE

YeOldPinPlayer

Inactive member

Unknown

8y 111K 6,454 4 12

Quoted from goingincirclez:

... we're witnessing the birth of something truly impressive, or a wholesale con like never before been seen in any industry.

Many cons have been larger, longer, and more influential than Deeproot, whatever their eventual accomplishments. Dutch tulips, Enron, Madoff, many multi-level marketing operations, Milkan/junk bonds, sub-prime mortgages.

Look at other Deeproot offerings when evaluating them. Maybe they'll prove their claims in the end. At this point it seems unlikely.

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#914 5 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,062 556

"For example, we assessed that the Hobbit COGS which we estimate to be around $6,750.00 would have cost us less than half of that for a similar build using our standard but with JJP’s specs. Even cheaper if we built it from scratch using our standard alone. It’s been a great teaching tool."

Not possible, Deeproot is not capturing all cost types. Owning and maintaining major equipment adds millions. Their concept requires a large inventory of parts and subassemblies, which requires millions. Labor also includes indirect labor, general overhead and taxes on direct labor, company taxes and insurance need to be addressed. Sales, warranty support, training, waste and breakage and downtime have to be added too. Once all are summed, there is no chance these amount to half of industry's cost to make.

The fixed costs should be spread over a short five year period, any longer and you are being too optimistic. Next 9 months is spent designing, setting up manufacturing, parts tooling. Assume DR sells 3K games a year for 4 years. Take all costs for five years and divide into 12k games. I am going to ballpark their need for funds at $24M and spread over 12k games is $2k of each machine. Add direct cost to manufacture each per game which is likely to approach $3k at least, and we are realistically looking at a total cost per game of $5k.

Add in the fact DR is bringing together new processes, new materials and new manufacturing while still designing 5+ new pins and hoping to complete everything together by 9 months and this causes inefficiencies, mistakes and expediting costs on everything. I'll add a conservative 25 % to cover that and my back of envelope estimate is these games will cost DR $6.25k. DP estimates their cost at half of JJP's $6.735k, when theirs is probably the same. My math may be squirrelly but no way no how can DR build a pinball machine for $3.25k. Unless it was VR like and therefore having little direct costs. One thing is certain ... Deeproot has deep pockets. ... that and they can spin a good yarn.

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#915 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,757

" All my ex's live in Texas"

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#916 5 years ago
 
HEY

indypinhead

Pinside member

12y 119K 6,376

Has it been asked/answered as to whether DR will be able to use Williams/Bally and/or Stern components in their machines. Does DR have to design/manufacture their own hardware?

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#917 5 years ago
 
DDT

daudioguy

Pinside member

US Redmond, WA

16y 65,300 189 1

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

DR likely isn't factoring in the cost of JJP's software, animation and audio work

PanzerFreak - I will only address the audio work: DR is 'paying the cost to be the boss' in this regard. It is my intention for DR machines to have my best work and they have already hired another full-time audio guy. Let's see....how many other pinball companies have one full-time audio guy? That would be none. So DR is addressing what it takes to have a great audio package associated with each DR title. There are also other exciting audio related developments that NDA and digression prevent me from revealing. Let's just say that they are very cool.

The time between now and March will be hard for all of us. For DR it will be hard work to get to the reveal with Robert's vision intact and for the community it will be hard to wait.

I couldn't do anything without a substantial amount of optimism and I have high hopes for DR.

ddt

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#918 5 years ago
 
LTG

LTG

Pinside member

US Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,910 24 7

Quoted from daudioguy:

I have high hopes for DR.

I have high hopes for you David ! I hope this all works out for you.

LTG : )

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#919 5 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,125 14 6 1

Quoted from daudioguy:

panzerfreak - I will only address the audio work: DR is 'paying the cost to be the boss' in this regard. It is my intention for DR machines to have my best work and they have already hired another full-time audio guy. Let's see....how many other pinball companies have one full-time audio guy? That would be none. So DR is addressing what it takes to have a great audio package associated with each DR title. There are also other exciting audio related developments that NDA and digression prevent me from revealing. Let's just say that they are very cool.
The time between now and March will be hard for all of us. For DR it will be hard work to get to the reveal with Robert's vision intact and for the community it will be hard to wait.
I couldn't do anything without a substantial amount of optimism and I have high hopes for DR.
ddt

This is really great to hear - audio is SIGNIFICANTLY deficient in all machines; we really have to go above and beyond to improve on things that are really basic at this point. AP's Houdini has a next-step-up audio component, with a dedicated serious amp, and the 6-speaker array, but the sound package is themed as to sound "old-timey" and doesn't show off the bombastics the sound system is able to produce. Also, no woofer. Stern's Iron Maiden should have an extreme, amazing aound system (I think the LE has something nicer than the Premiums) but the sound on that game is actually pretty poor, considering. This is definitely a positive development.

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#920 5 years ago
 
DAV

InfiniteLives

Pinside member

10y 125K 4,555 283

Can Robert do another good will for the community and buy the imamaculate baywatch and bring it to TPF each year for us pinheads to pay homage to and add up the play count past 600 in 12 years?

maybe flight out wantdataeast for a meet and greet slash dirt sale and a seminar on how to sell stuff

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#921 5 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,928 3 14

Quoted from rubberducks:

"In fact, we have received or are ordering all machinery needed to create nearly every component of a pinball machine in house."

Seems both improbable & hyperbolic, and likely to cause serious issues. How many startups in any sector choose to manufacture a disparate set of components made from totally different materials, using different machinery and techniques, in a complex assembled product using hundreds if not several thousands of components? The answer is that they don't. Because it's less efficient, more costly, and particularly in a startup scenario likely to lead to serious quality problems.

I think it's too vague to make the assumption that "nearly every component" means they are going to reverse engineer every single mechanism (ball through, pop bumpers, plunger, flipper assemblies, sling assemblies). Perhaps they mean that nearly every "unique component to each table design" is going to be made in-house (laser cutter for plastics, CNC and printer for playfields, etc).

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#922 5 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,609 6 21 1

There is no way they are going to fit the equipment, people and manufacturing capability to build nearly every part of a pinball machine as well as the machine itself in that building. You are going to need engineers, machinists, tool and die makers, electricians, woodworkers, assemblers etc. There is a reason most companies outsource the parts in their machines. It makes no sense whatsoever to invest in an injection molder to make only flipper bats and posts. Metalworking equipment to make pop bumper parts and ramps. Electronic equipment to make the boards, switches and sensors, etc. Now bring all of these skilled tradespeople and machinery together under one roof in a matter of less than a year, AND produce 3 functional, debugged machines ready to ship for for launch day? This sounds ridiculously optimistic. But, so long as he isn't taking peoples money up front and employees are paid... Giddyup!

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#923 5 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,609 6 21 1

And I left out factoring in building the tooling to make the parts as well. Building tooling (like injection molds) in house could be a quarter million-plus dollar investment in machine shop equipment alone. Having tooling like molds made outside could have 10 to 20 week lead times easily in this economy... I deal with it every day.

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#924 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from toyotaboy:

I think it's too vague to make the assumption that "nearly every component" means they are going to reverse engineer every single mechanism (ball through, pop bumpers, plunger, flipper assemblies, sling assemblies). Perhaps they mean that nearly every "unique component to each table design" is going to be made in-house (laser cutter for plastics, CNC and printer for playfields, etc).

I think he's perfectly cognisant of the language he's using, so my point is that it's likely to be either major exaggeration or that it will prove ruinous. It's simply not possible to make everything yourself without incurring unneeded cost and problems. Especially in the kind of lean, low cost operation and product he's promising. Maybe in 10-15 years with huge advancements and lowering in cost of 3D printing. But not now.

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#925 5 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,609 6 21 1

Quoted from rubberducks:

I think he's perfectly cognisant of the language he's using, so my point is that it's likely to be either major exaggeration or that it will prove ruinous. It's simply not possible to make everything yourself without incurring unneeded cost and problems. Especially in the kind of lean, low cost operation and product he's promising. Maybe in 10-15 years with huge advancements and lowering in cost of 3D printing. But not now.

Anyone who actually works with 3d printing on a commercial level knows full well that it still has major limitations on many levels when it comes to using it to manufacture an end product. I surely hope that isn't what DR is banking on.

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#926 5 years ago
 
???

rubberducks

Inactive member

8y 76,150 3,031 1

Quoted from JodyG:

Anyone who actually works with 3d printing on a commercial level knows full well that it still has major limitations on many levels when it comes to using it to manufacture an end product. I surely hope that isn't what DR is banking on.

It would be the only way to avoid gigantic sunk costs for specialist equipment and training, and then not having most of that equipment and indeed some of the staff lie idle for much of the day. But like you say, not really possible as of now. 10-15 years IMO.

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#927 5 years ago
 
GIC

goingincirclez

GIC Pinball

9y 116K 2,835 27

Quoted from toyotaboy:

I think it's too vague to make the assumption that "nearly every component" means they are going to reverse engineer every single mechanism (ball through, pop bumpers, plunger, flipper assemblies, sling assemblies).

Actually, I think it's very clear. His exact quote was "nearly every component of *a pinball machine*"... NOT "our pinball machine", or "the unique components of our machine". Unless that was deliberate hyperbole - and I concede it very well could be - at face value I take that to mean that every single thing in the cabinet (or what DR will pass for one) is going to be made by DR. In less than a year.

And at face value, held against the typical pinball machine, that's an entirely ludicrous boast!

Only thing I can figure is it goes back to the mysterious "DR Spec" - whatever that is - accounting for some kind of radical sea change that materially alters the BOM in ways we can only speculate.

I almost wonder if the cabinets will be resin and the playfields made of a "hardtop" over MDF or something. Maybe the playfield sandwiches a wide thin screen for artwork and inserts and simulated mechs, but adds some sort of magnetic inductive mechs beneath to interact with a physical ball. Don't forget Mueller's strong allusions to the "video" aspect of these games. I mean, everything ludicrous is on the table if you want to speculate, which is all we can do, in good fun. Anything, however improbable, is still possible if they throw enough money at it... it will be interesting to see regardless.

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#928 5 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,155 16

Quoted from deeproot:

Tis true... At what point should we start panicking?
-- Robert dT

American Pinball did a working game to show from scratch in about 4 months, so you have plenty of time if you have their skills and ambition.

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#929 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from PinMonk:

American Pinball did a working game to show from scratch in about 4 months, so you have plenty of time if you have their skills and ambition.

With the addition that American Pinball took another 9 months till shipping games wich DeepRoot want's to do immediately.

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#930 5 years ago
 
VIC

PinMonk

Pin Monk

9y 183K 30,155 16

Quoted from bobukcat:

The more talented and experienced people they hire the more I keep thinking there must really be something to this guy's "vision" for pinball. JPOP doesn't count because his situation was such that any offer he'd almost HAVE to accept, but all these other guys were not in the same situation, though I guess you could say Nordman fell for Heighways' BS. Time will tell.

But their timing is exquisite. At this pace they should have their first title out about the time the next cyclical crash comes.

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#931 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,757

I aint seen nothing yet.

All I see is talk about Ferraris at Yugo prices, and a mention of a $50,000 game that I would never want in the first place.

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#932 5 years ago
 
RON

Rondogg

Pinside member

11y 109K 3,341

He's using a lot of hyperbole about revolutionizing pinball and totally separating himself from what traditional manufacturers do. They also have a lot of game designers, sound designers and a full digital team in Utah but no real discussion about hardcore manufacturing details.

I sincerely hope that this isn't some kind of VR pinball revolution. The technology may be ready for that but I'm not.

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#933 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,208

Quoted from toyotaboy:

I think it's too vague to make the assumption that "nearly every component" means they are going to reverse engineer every single mechanism (ball through, pop bumpers, plunger, flipper assemblies, sling assemblies). Perhaps they mean that nearly every "unique component to each table design" is going to be made in-house (laser cutter for plastics, CNC and printer for playfields, etc).

We know some gear in Wales that might be up for sale... from the last guy who thought that was the way to go too...

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#934 5 years ago
 
AST

Astropin

Pinside+ Member

11y 125K 8,896

What sucks is one bad apple might destroy the whole thing. Looks like there are some good people involved (hired) with deeproot. It's unfortunate that many (including myself) will not buy anything from them as long as JPOP is on the payroll. (period). But that's up to them...they have a choice.

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#935 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Astropin:

What sucks is one bad apple might destroy the whole thing. Looks like there are some good people involved (hired) with deeproot. It's unfortunate that many (including myself) will not buy anything from them as long as JPOP is on the payroll. (period). But that's up to them...they have a choice.

Jpop is not XXXXX.

Post last edited 5 years ago: “Deleted because pinside moderation tem dowsn't share my taste of humor. ;)”

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#936 5 years ago
 
JIM

Jvspin

Pinside+ Addict

US Redwood City, CA

11y 95,050 3,368 15

Quoted from Astropin:

What sucks is one bad apple might destroy the whole thing. Looks like there are some good people involved (hired) with deeproot. It's unfortunate that many (including myself) will not buy anything from them as long as JPOP is on the payroll. (period). But that's up to them...they have a choice.

Consider that if they're on the up-and-up and are successful, they're offering some form of restitution to all the buyers who had money deposited with JPOP and aren't part of the lawsuit.

Maybe Jpop's involved because they wanted his IP and patents for their machines, can't think of any other reason.

I'm hoping they succeed for the sake of myself and all the others who were and are presently involved.

As someone else mentioned, as long as they're paying their employees and not asking for money, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and get past JPOP's involvement.

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#937 5 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,422 248

Quoted from spfxted:

VERY interesting read! So, Pinball Scummers would not even give up Alien if Deeproot would make them. Sheesh!

I will never support anything related to Heighway or Pinball Brothers. I cannot support Jpop, but could support Deeproot if he departed them.

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#938 5 years ago
 
DRM

iceman44

Pinside+ Pro!

US Boerne, TX

13y 162K 26,867 28 49

Quoted from Jvspin:

Consider that if they're on the up-and-up and are successful, they're offering some form of restitution to all the buyers who had money deposited with JPOP and aren't part of the lawsuit.
Maybe Jpop's involved because they wanted his IP and patents for their machines, can't think of any other reason.
I'm hoping they succeed for the sake of myself and all the others who were and are presently involved.
As someone else mentioned, as long as they're paying their employees and not asking for money, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and get past JPOP's involvement.

Hard to believe the patents are worth anything

Maybe new stuff they are trying to integrate into pinball

I’m not sure how the slot machine technology works on displaying content on the glass but that would be really cool

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#939 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,757

Quoted from iceman44:

Hard to believe the patents are worth anything

download (3) (resized).jpgdownload (3) (resized).jpg
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#940 5 years ago
 
JCS

jeffspinballpalace

JeffSPinballPalace

20y 242K 19,062 556

Pinball manufacturers better not plan on selling more than 1k to 2k machines of any given title in this market. By March 2019 at TPF, there may be up to 5 titles available from DR. Stern will offer 3 - Maiden, a new title and with one more announced. AP will have 2 with Houdini and a second release. Spooky will have 2 with TNA and ACNC. JJP have 1 with POTC. Finally CC will have 2 - AFMr and MBr. 15 new in box games vying for buyers. What if every one of them is off the charts perfect? I have room for maybe 1 more pin, but with buyers having lots of choices, manufacturers are still splitting one small pie of customers buying one or more titles. Sure the market of buyers is growing, but not at a pace to sell 5k units of each new pin to. For that reason, most manufactures will be selling an average of 1k machines per release and up to 2k pins if title is really good. Stern will still be big dog with higher sales than ever, but its market share will drop from 90 to 75%.

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#941 5 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,757

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Pinball manufacturers better not plan on selling more than 1k to 2k machines of any given game in this market. By March 2019 at TPF, there may be up to 5 titles available from DR. Stern will offer 3 - Maiden, a new title and with one more announced. AP will have 1 with their second release. Spooky will have 1 with ACNC. JJP have 1 with POTC. Finally CC will have 2 - AFMr and MBr. 13 new games vying for buyers. What if every one of them is off the charts perfect?

Or what if the stock market and economy tanks and we go into another deep recession?

This whole dream is living on borrowed time IMO.

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#942 5 years ago
 
AST

Astropin

Pinside+ Member

11y 125K 8,896

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Jpop is not Hitler.

wtf?

Quoted from Jvspin:

Consider that if they're on the up-and-up and are successful, they're offering some form of restitution to all the buyers who had money deposited with JPOP and aren't part of the lawsuit.
Maybe Jpop's involved because they wanted his IP and patents for their machines, can't think of any other reason.
I'm hoping they succeed for the sake of myself and all the others who were and are presently involved.
As someone else mentioned, as long as they're paying their employees and not asking for money, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and get past JPOP's involvement.

ehhh...they don't need JPOP or his "IP's".

Like I said...they have a choice...and I have a choice. JPOP on payroll = no sale. Everyone else can do whatever they want.

BTW...I lost zero $ to JPOP. Just a concerned hobbyist with certain standards.

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#943 5 years ago
 
MGH

Pinballpal

Pinside+ Frequent

US Altoona, PA

12y 77,800 1,029 10

Watch it be a form of virtual pinball. You make all of those parts in house and release five games at once.

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#944 5 years ago
 
DMB

PismoArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US St. George, UT

12y 143K 4,100 3 134

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but does anyone else think that Deeproot will sell their new pin at cost to people who got screwed by JPOP?

The customer can then, of course, resell it for a tidy profit that won't totally make them whole, but would probably net them a few thousand bucks.

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#945 5 years ago
 
HAZ

hank527

Pinside+ Addict

13y 128K 5,422 248

Quoted from o-din:

Or what if the stock market and economy tanks and we go into another deep recession?
This whole dream is living on borrowed time IMO.

Oh I think this is coming as a trade war will certainly cause a recession.

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#946 5 years ago
 
CBM

spfxted

Pinside member

US Saddle River, NJ

12y 147K 24,657 4 9

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Jpop is not Hitler.

Stop insulting Hitler!

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#947 5 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,208

Quoted from PismoArcade:

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but does anyone else think that Deeproot will sell their new pin at cost to people who got screwed by JPOP?

They have already outlined what they are offering people who put money into jpop.... basically credit towards dp games... depending on how much you were in

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#948 5 years ago
 
RYE

Pimp77

Pinside member

20y 92,650 6,275 78

.

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#949 5 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,104 2

Quoted from Pimp77:

.

Well said!

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#950 5 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

The unfortunate thing is, we know the road from showing a demo game at a pinball show to delivering games to customers is even longer than the road was getting that game to the show in the first place.

So nothing means anything until customers have games. The countdown to TPF means nothing to me, because manufacturing is the challenge, not creating the pinball.

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