Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020Quoted from javagrind888:JJ was very dismissive when we met him at TPF and we were just praising our new Pirates. It was pointed out that we were dropped real quick because he ran over to couple wearing thousand dollar outfits. Eric was great to talk to though.
Have met Jack (and Gary) many times and I would not call either of them dismissive at all.
Quoted from Thunderbird:Hoping that DP comes out swinging with lower pricing than everyone else. This would impress the market instantly and set a new precedence. People are already talking about JJP pricing going up even more. Don’t know how they will sell many machines at even their current high pricing. The used market factors JJP’s high pricing in and is one of the reasons JJP games resale prices are so poor (POTC is the only exception, because of very limited run. Start making them again and watch how fast used POTC games drop in value). DP’s slogan of a pinball in every home, indicates lower pricing. Whomever can beat the price of a Pro, the pinball kingdom is theirs.
Quoted from pookycade:So unless they are willing to lose money on each sale, or have developed a secret build efficiency process we don’t know about or use cheaper materials then it seems highly unlikely that they will deliver a substantially lower price. Stern can set price due in part to being the market leader but also due to large economies of scale that DR can’t possibly have at this point. It’s why it’s been so hard for these other companies to truly disrupt Stern. Barring some major deep pockets willing to lose money for a while, DR does not have enough revenue to scale up the design and manufacturing process to thereby lower the price below Stern.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:I'd like to think their innovations will cut costs one way or the other in the (hopefully) long run but yes, I don't think - and Robert even backpedalled to this - that they intend to be generally "cheap" (at least from the getgo but intendedly later); just that the value will always be better.
Quoted from Thunderbird:Lol, they have already been very willing to lose big money over the past 5 years and have sold nothing. If the market is to be disrupted, it is always through price point. It always boils down at the end of the day to pricing, no matter the product.
Having been a manufacturer on a global scale of between 400 to 500 products, it always was pricing that made the difference, no matter the quality. If pricing is higher than competitors, your product sits on the shelf and collects dust. Maybe a few dedicated loyalist will buy no matter the price, but that is the rare exception.
Citing the above, I'll put forward my own questionable suspicions or predictions.
-Deeproot has an updated Alien ready to go I rekon, P.Bros layout and basis, I guess 6-7k. It adds up. Here are some reasons why I suspect this.
It is worth remembering, people consitently point out how Millions of dollars is being thrown around .... but with the tacked on assumption that it is all being wasted. My assumption is that on the whole it has not been wasted, but invested in various ways. Of course a proportion goes to waste, but I figure most has been put to smart use that has set them up well. Qualifying that for context.
So, there is RAZA as a given. RM says a "higher end game" (more later), but really DR needs Multiple titles to launch, ideally. I'm going with one more Unlicenced and a Third that wants to be a "sell like HOTcakes" Licenced Theme. Alien fits the bill well, demand if done "well", execution would be critical.
Deeproot has been "burning money" for so long... actually I would more realistically analogise to pouring in money, which is great as long as there aren't any gaping holes in the pool. It's invested then, rather than lost. As much as they are due now to stop pouring in money, I do not think they will be planning to MAKE any money for At Least the first year. That would be a long term plan, consistent with what RM has said. This would suggest they will be happy to sell their games for Cost or even Below Cost to produce. I think this explains some of RMs confusing messages re price point. "We're going to make Feraris for Kia costs! (but only for the first 12 months though)". "RAZA is a High End game" . Hmmmm, I'm saying that as a DR startup "Special", he is going to sell you his High End RAZA at Below cost so that you can buy it for Less than a Stern Pro would cost you. Zidware claimants should still be extremely impressed by this gesture. Profit comes much later. In 2022 you may still be able to buy freshly produced RAZA but it might cost you 12k.
"Why would they do that, that is Stupid?, giving games away at cost?". No it isn't stupid. High value games (JJP, CGC, AP level) costing Less than Stern Pro's would Absolutely Fly off the shelves if they are good games. The Pros of doing this would Far outweigh the cons. Just "paying" to steal some market. They rapidly build a customer base. They get their first releases out on mass to get broad feedback or real world test data. People get Good games at a super discount, startup the love. Plenty of DR games go onsite. People get familiar, instant presence. Money actually comes in the door, significantly reducing funds "burn rate". Do this for a year and the first 5-10 releases, be able to make at least 100 games a week to start, with room to expand to demand within months, you're second bigest manufacturer by end 2021.
Now, DR need a Killer licence. Iconic to remember. Something Everyone knows, well thought out layout and ruleset... with Awesome theme Integration. DR also allowed for and encouraged cooperative/contract/colaborative game production. Hw/PB Alien stands out like a sore thumb. "Oh but the Licencing for this would be "prohibitive"!! ".... of the "wasted" tens of millions, well what if RM placed a huge dump at Disneys doorstep some time back, just to secure at their cost/loss something BIG for a first licenced theme? . But if only they had a tried and tested layout and ruleset to tweak slightly??? .... oh, hang on! 
Now they could potentially also demonstrate straight up their ability to make games for other companies. A decent feather in their cap for more contracts, if they can pull it off. It would explain the Freeplay store bulging with additional spare parts all the time, that would likely never be needed just for a couple of hundred original Alien. Part stocks should be getting thinner on the ground not getting wider and more available (but note only certain Playfield parts, not so much System electronics). I can see fair possibility of basically the same Alien game with some minor playfield tweaks/improvments, but be essentially the same or better to play. Likewise with rules and assets. If there is no display in the playfield it would almost certainly have to be in the apron centre, it gives half the atomosphere to the game. I think they have piles of them Ready To Go for us$6900 a pop, or even cheaper if DR go for the bigger loss. They'd be gone instantly if they looked/played good. There is a second game for Zidware claimants to be extremely impressed with.
For after 12 months of below cost games .... you want your biggest other things kept for full profit, so it makes sense to hold back Alice in Wonderland and Magic Girl until you are ready to charge full tote odds of 13k for them, and have proven some other DR releases already. Confidence .... Christmas 2021. That way you can also include any updates or fixes to your virgin software and hardware systems, so that these High Priced games are worth as much as possible in value and reliability.
Heighway Alien Re-Loaded september 2020 FTW! 
*Not because I want one, I already have one, but because it is an Awesome title .... only pity is there aren't more of them about for everyone to experience what a great game it is, and that it wasn't built on a better thought out platform. The clues point at it being a real possibility, and it would serve their need very well.
Quoted from razorsedge:High value games (JJP, CGC, AP level) costing Less than Stern Pro's would Absolutely Fly off the shelves if they are good games.
This is totally true. However, for it to actually happen each part of it needs to be true. That’s a pretty tall order that would almost be too good to be true... which means it probably isn’t true.
Quoted from DaveH:This is totally true. However, for it to actually happen each part of it needs to be true. That’s a pretty tall order that would almost be too good to be true... which means it probably isn’t true.
At least "probably" is not "definitely" 
It also isn't a tall order to make no profit on games for 12 months, after you've been "throwing away" countless millions per year for half a decade. It is entirely reasonable to assume DR would be happy to make underpriced games for a while to gain some solid market share and get production systems operating. Also makes sense to snatch a significant corner of the market and newer untapped markets... starting off by selling games at a loss, is the subtext. It is a strategy that has been proven to work in markets generally. Sell at a significant loss to establish your Brand, then make good profit once established and reputable. Just saying, it can potentially fit and make sense from what I see.
If they list games at high prices for opening they are doomed IMHO, it would make no sense.
Well worth taking the priciple into consideration, a reasonable long term strategy. The follow through is extremely important, though.
Stranger things have happened! 
Quoted from razorsedge:Citing the above, I'll put forward my own questionable suspicions or predictions.
-Deeproot has an updated Alien ready to go I rekon, P.Bros layout and basis, I guess 6-7k. It adds up. Here are some reasons why I suspect this.
It is worth remembering, people consitently point out how Millions of dollars is being thrown around .... but with the tacked on assumption that it is all being wasted. My assumption is that on the whole it has not been wasted, but invested in various ways. Of course a proportion goes to waste, but I figure most has been put to smart use that has set them up well. Qualifying that for context.
So, there is RAZA as a given. RM says a "higher end game" (more later), but really DR needs Multiple titles to launch, ideally. I'm going with one more Unlicenced and a Third that wants to be a "sell like HOTcakes" Licenced Theme. Alien fits the bill well, demand if done "well", execution would be critical.
Deeproot has been "burning money" for so long... actually I would more realistically analogise to pouring in money, which is great as long as there aren't any gaping holes in the pool. It's invested then, rather than lost. As much as they are due now to stop pouring in money, I do not think they will be planning to MAKE any money for At Least the first year. That would be a long term plan, consistent with what RM has said. This would suggest they will be happy to sell their games for Cost or even Below Cost to produce. I think this explains some of RMs confusing messages re price point. "We're going to make Feraris for Kia costs! (but only for the first 12 months though)". "RAZA is a High End game" . Hmmmm, I'm saying that as a DR startup "Special", he is going to sell you his High End RAZA at Below cost so that you can buy it for Less than a Stern Pro would cost you. Zidware claimants should still be extremely impressed by this gesture. Profit comes much later. In 2022 you may still be able to buy freshly produced RAZA but it might cost you 12k.
"Why would they do that, that is Stupid?, giving games away at cost?". No it isn't stupid. High value games (JJP, CGC, AP level) costing Less than Stern Pro's would Absolutely Fly off the shelves if they are good games. The Pros of doing this would Far outweigh the cons. Just "paying" to steal some market. They rapidly build a customer base. They get their first releases out on mass to get broad feedback or real world test data. People get Good games at a super discount, startup the love. Plenty of DR games go onsite. People get familiar, instant presence. Money actually comes in the door, significantly reducing funds "burn rate". Do this for a year and the first 5-10 releases, be able to make at least 100 games a week to start, with room to expand to demand within months, you're second bigest manufacturer by end 2021.
Now, DR need a Killer licence. Iconic to remember. Something Everyone knows, well thought out layout and ruleset... with Awesome theme Integration. DR also allowed for and encouraged cooperative/contract/colaborative game production. Hw/PB Alien stands out like a sore thumb. "Oh but the Licencing for this would be "prohibitive"!! ".... of the "wasted" tens of millions, well what if RM placed a huge dump at Disneys doorstep some time back, just to secure at their cost/loss something BIG for a first licenced theme? . But if only they had a tried and tested layout and ruleset to tweak slightly??? .... oh, hang on!
Now they could potentially also demonstrate straight up their ability to make games for other companies. A decent feather in their cap for more contracts, if they can pull it off. It would explain the Freeplay store bulging with additional spare parts all the time, that would likely never be needed just for a couple of hundred original Alien. Part stocks should be getting thinner on the ground not getting wider and more available (but note only certain Playfield parts, not so much System electronics). I can see fair possibility of basically the same Alien game with some minor playfield tweaks/improvments, but be essentially the same or better to play. Likewise with rules and assets. If there is no display in the playfield it would almost certainly have to be in the apron centre, it gives half the atomosphere to the game. I think they have piles of them Ready To Go for us$6900 a pop. They'd be gone instantly if they looked/played good.
For after 12 months of below cost games .... you want your biggest other things kept for full profit, so it makes sense to hold back Alice in Wonderland and Magic Girl until you are ready to charge full tote odds of 13k for them and proven some releases already. Confidence .... Christmas 2021. That way you can also include any updates or fixes to your virgin software and hardware systems so that these High Priced games are worth as much as possible in value and reliability.
Heighway Alien Re-Loaded september 2020 FTW!
*Not because I want one, I already have one, but because it is an Awesome title .... only pity is there aren't more of them about for everyone to experience what a great game it is, and that it wasn't built on a better thought out platform. The clues point at it being a real possibility, and it would serve their need very well.
Interesting points, if they were wise enough to employ the technique, all pinball competitors would be shaking in their boots. Win over a customer base at low price point, was exactly what JJP did, when they sold WOZ at $6.5k. Some years later, WOZ banana edition sold with less mechs and features, at almost twice the price. Major disruptor in the market place would be loss leader pricing. This is exactly what Amazon did many years ago and now they are Goliath in the retail world. I remember Jeff being questioned by many and even puzzled that he was not making a profit for years. He always said, I’m not worried about profits right now, but looking to seize market share for the future. That is exactly what happened and now Amazon is the largest retailer in the world, with huge profits pouring into the company coffers.
Quoted from Thunderbird:Interesting points if they were wise enough to employ the technique. Win over a customer base at low price point, was exactly what JJP did, when they sold WOZ at $6.5k. Some years later, WOZ banana edition sold with less mechs and features, at almost twice the price. Major disruptor in the market place would be loss leader pricing. This is exactly what Amazon did many years ago and now they are Goliath in the retail world. I remember Jeff being questioned by many and even puzzled that he was not making a profit for years. He always said, I’m not worried about profits right now, but looking to seize market share for the future. That is exactly what happened and now Amazon is the largest retailer in the world.
Interesting
Perhaps the niche market for DR are just middle of the road new full size games at affordable prices. Why bother shareing the stage with Stern, Spooky, and JJ's bells and whistles? Kind of like the Nintendo Wii/switch never meant to compete with Microsoft and Sony's powerful hardware. Stern is attempting to tackle that price point with their smaller size home pins. RAZA would own the home pin market as customers would get a full size pin that's pretty fun at a similar price.
We don't know what surprises will be revealed but I'm certainly going to be eagerly awaiting. RAZA can't be compared to WOZ so I'm thinking $3500 to steal the show. At least based upon the footage on YouTube.
Quoted from benheck:Maybe they're making a Michael Jackson pinball.
Trudeau is currently busy not picking up soap , so I don't think he will be available to design it .
Quoted from BazilBLast:Trudeau is currently busy not picking up soap , so I don't think he will be available to design it .
The common consensus is that MJ was framed, even the kids (back then) say that (now that they're adults).
At least he's innocent until proven guilty.
Quoted from razorsedge:-Deeproot has an updated Alien ready to go I rekon, P.Bros layout and basis
Quoted from razorsedge:Heighway Alien Re-Loaded september 2020 FTW!
Alien wasn't even on my radar but I like your guess. Some of the pieces to the puzzle you describe do seem to fit that theory. Well done.
If true, we could also speculate that Nordman got to go back in and address some of the issues that caused him to leave Heighway. Maybe even add to the game?
Yikes, I'd be a Deeproot customer on that one.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:The common consensus is that MJ was framed, even the kids (back then) say that (now that they're adults).
At least he's innocent until proven guilty.
I love your enthusiasm on this thread DS .
The worldwide common consensus is , he was a paedophile , only his hardcore fans think he's innocent .
With his victims speaking out and what was found in the secret room in Neverland , it's obvious he was a sick fuck .
Don't you think it's weird he never hanged out with little girls , only little boys .
You can enjoy his music if you want but it doesn't mean he's not guilty of horrible crimes , he paid off people
I hope they have once in a year a non cornerstone game for kia prices (like they announced) something like 3999 so there is also something for the casual home players that don't want to spend 6.5 to 12 K.
that can also intresting for a arcade when covid is over.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:The common consensus is that MJ was framed, even the kids (back then) say that (now that they're adults).
At least he's innocent until proven guilty.
The even better question to ask about alot of these kinds of murky cases is, Why?
Nobody really Wants to open that can of worms, really, as much as it would be responsible and potentially life saving to actually do that.
Quoted from pinballwil:I hope they have once in a year a non cornerstone game for kia prices (like they announced) something like 3999 so there is also something for the casual home players that don't want to spend 6.5 to 12 K.
that can also intresting for a arcade when covid is over.
this!
But given the current market it will probably be 10k limited editions until shareholders have some return on investment. 
Quoted from razorsedge:At least "probably" is not "definitely"
Only to snatch a significant corner of the market... starting off by selling games at a loss, is the subtext. It is a strategy that has been proven to work in markets. Sell at a significant loss to establish, then make good profit once established. Just saying, it can potentially fit and make sence from what I see.
Well worth taking the priciple into consideration, a reasonable long term strategy. The follow through is extremely important, though.
Stranger things have happened!
People sell at a loss to make money elsewhere. (Ink for printers... services.... foothold in distribution.... intro product verse main product...)
Not much of any of that applies to hobbyist playing pinball. Only the idea of seeding demo units to get the brand awareness and access to product. Not selling to the consumer at a loss.
New companies know they will be in the red because of startup and ramp up costs. Game companies know they need reuse of their designs to reduce dev costs. New manufacturers don’t pray for the first title to be the worlds best... they know it will take a few iterations to get nice and healthy
Quoted from iceman44:Send me a PM if after the announcement if DR is not willing to fulfill their obligations under the GOODWILL AGREEMENT on Monday in a timely fashion
Which has already been breached
Someone is practicing law with a license
Quoted from jorro:this!
But given the current market it will probably be 10k limited editions until shareholders have some return on investment.
Going with the "sell at break even or loss" for the first twelve months, perhaps they could do a "home title" at 3.5k, that they sell for 5k in late 2021.
Also, "shareholders" or "investors" is RM, people keep forgetting that
What if the third offering I supposed there was a "home" or "entry" level title? .... he wants games in homes .... ? 
.... Hmmm, maybe the Microsoft pinball layout fits that slot, everyone knows it don't they? ... is that "Space Cadet"?
Who knows, we'll soon find out.
Quoted from Thunderbird:Win over a customer base at low price point, was exactly what JJP did, when they sold WOZ at $6.5k.
No it is not. The woz price point was anything but a low price point. It was a super premium price at the time.., justified by the promise of a cadallic game to justify it.
The price went up not because of some intro offer deal.... but because jack’s finger in the wind price estimate was incredibly off base. He set a price before he even had a design... and they opted to chase the game target rather than respect his early estimate.
You are rewriting history to try to support your beliefs
Quoted from BazilBLast:I love your enthusiasm on this thread DS .
The worldwide common consensus is , he was a paedophile , only his hardcore fans think he's innocent .
With his victims speaking out and what was found in the secret room in Neverland , it's obvious he was a sick fuck .
Don't you think it's weird he never hanged out with little girls , only little boys .
You can enjoy his music if you want but it doesn't mean he's not guilty of horrible crimes , he paid off people
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations
Didn't know of that movie and depending on where you read that stuff up that "undeniable facts" aren't that undeniable.
So I just would take everything with a grain of salt.
But better do a U-turn now and get back to pinball...
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Didn't know of that movie and depending on where you read that stuff up that "undeniable facts" aren't that undeniable.
So I just would take everything with a grain of salt.
But better do a U-turn now and get back to pinball...
If you want to defend someone like that that's up to you .
I don't care how talented he was .
Quoted from BazilBLast:If you want to defend someone like that that's up to you .
I don't care how talented he was .
Back in the 90's, I had two friends from Buffalo who defended OJ's innocence despite the incredible amount of double-think it took. It's hard facing facts that someone you idolize is a sick f'er.
Quoted from BazilBLast:If you want to defend someone like that that's up to you .
I don't care how talented he was .
I didn‘t.
I just say there are way different sources and info, so that I refrain from judgement.
Not long now, even the haters gotta be a tiny tiny bit excited 
I think it will be more then just RAZA...
Quoted from russdx:Not long now, even the haters gotta be a tiny tiny bit excited
I think it will be more then just RAZA...
Oh no. I would need a ton of lube as John already fd me in the tookus. Not excited at all for the attitude or the lack of talent and rip off artist John. Only in pinball can someone do this crap and get a pass!
Quoted from russdx:Not long now, even the haters gotta be a tiny tiny bit excited
I think it will be more then just RAZA...
Goonies!
Quoted from hank527:lack of talent artist John
Lack of talent to build a game and ok that’s more proven. If you mean lack of talent to design a game you sound like a whiney bitch being left alone on the prom. Don’t accuse you of that just read it from some zidware customers (and Levi).
Quoted from hank527:Oh no. I would need a ton of lube as John already fd me in the tookus. Not excited at all for the attitude or the lack of talent and rip off artist John. Only in pinball can someone do this crap and get a pass!
Pinball and politics... although I do think Deep Root has a lot of talent and John does great pinball artwork, even with all his faults.
Quoted from nwpinball:Pinball and politics... although I do think Deep Root has a lot of talent and John does great pinball artwork, even with all his faults.
Excellent talent. Poor management
Quoted from digitaldocc:I'm thinking $3500 to steal the show.
$3500? I’d be all over a RAZA for the price, but I also think it’s totally unrealistic.
Quoted from Krupps4:$3500? I’d be all over a RAZA for the price, but I also think it’s totally unrealistic.
Order it now for $5k delivered would scratch my sweet spot 
Quoted from Krupps4:$3500? I’d be all over a RAZA for the price, but I also think it’s totally unrealistic.
$3500 and gauranteed in stock at a distro, yeah would be unbelievable and would sell lots of units.
Quoted from Extraballz:Are we there yet mom.......
I don’t think DR has really said a thing about what that date means. And Pinside already has games to go.
Quoted from nwpinball:Pinball and politics... although I do think Deep Root has a lot of talent and John does great pinball artwork, even with all his faults.
No, John doesn't do great art...
That was Zombie Yeti and Matt Andrews...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Order it now for $5k delivered would scratch my sweet spot
Zero chance
I’d like to get LeBron James on my team for $100
Quoted from tbutler6:Pardon the ignorance, i didnt see anything in the key posts-are we expecting a stream from them for a reveal? or just info and private tours to their guests and stuff will trickle down from TWIP and distros tomorrow?
Monday the seas will part !
Quoted from DS_Nadine:I didn‘t.
I just say there are way different sources and info, so that I refrain from judgement.
The better question is, Why would anyone want to frame them? .... ask yourself about that posibility, then realise how it could actually be worse, the sicko-ness you are potentially leaving unchecked. Pillowcases and pitchfork mob after the accused doesn't analyse information too well as a cloudy rabble, but runs on emotion instead.
Whistle-blowers Do get Checked, and may be guilty, but also just framed too sometimes. For silence. Discredited. If discrediting or framing is too hard or won't work sometimes whistleblowers also just mysteriously die. Various reasons, many areas and kinds of corruption, and no shortage of whistles to be blown (and silenced), no doubt.
You can not call unsubstantiated or circumstantial "evidence" as fact.
I personally would Never defend an Actual ped. They should be locked up for good. Trouble is, too many Inocents (of many broader crimes as well) do get locked up.... while truckloads of guilty parties walk around free to continue what they do. If people really cared about stopping sick fuks they wouldn't turn a blind eye to (a very few) alternative possibilities that also might make just as much "sense". People are happy to be oblivious. Love their celebs to the very end. 
It is actually easy to discredit someone "credible", depending whom you are. False credibility, also easy, for some. Of course neither are legal, nor do they sit well with a common reasonable person, but these things will go unchecked when not discovered or "reported". Obviously.
In the words of Eminem, "Snap back to reality" ... or Skyhooks, "Horror Movie". .... and thousands of others, "obscure", silent, or no longer with us. 
Michael Jackson would have been a great theme, if the brand was not tarnished.
Quoted from razorsedge:I personally would Never defend an Actual ped.
An " Actual ped "
You make me laugh .
Blinded by celebrity .
Go deeproot .
Quoted from BazilBLast:Blinded by celebrity .
Well it is no laughing matter, and I for one am not treating it like a joke.
Deserves it's own thread. Maybe some other forum.
Yeah back to DR
Go Deeproot!
Quoted from razorsedge: Yeah back to DR
Hopefully dr will talk more about how you can customise your machine .
Quoted from BazilBLast:Hopefully dr will talk more about how you can customise your machine .
That's it, we have yet to hear much about that for RAZA... interested to see if it's going to be like Pro/Premium/LE or more like Spooky with "ADD-ONS"tm ? ... two levels? ...
Six levels? 
Lol
Quoted from razorsedge:That's it, we have yet to hear much about that for RAZA... interested to see if it's going to be like Pro/Premium/LE or more like Spooky with "ADD-ONS"tm ? ... two levels? ...
Six levels? Lol
Hopefully they have a list of options and colours and you go through and pick what you want .
My guess is they have a dollar bill slot that will MAKE IT RAIN when hitting super jackpots. Mini wizard modes will pass a low electrical current through the flipper buttons to your finger tips, making it harder to cradle up. High scores will get an 3D laser scan, full body, animated avatar, instead of entering initials. All of this can be yours for less than an Arcade 1-up...
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