Renton, WA
Quoted from branlon8:so are we saying now, that if we don’t have something interesting and insightful to post, we shouldn’t post at all?
Dare to dream..
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from razorsedge:I get the sense that it is all being deliberately downplayed.
My sense is that the CEO is learning some very hard and expensive lessons. This is a classic mistake with people who do well in one arena of their lives and assume their success will simply map over.
Quoted from razorsedge:The development RAZA was claimed to be "90%" of the game.
Precisely. Expect very little to change on RAZA. More sound effects and animations, some rule changes. They might tighten up some shots, or add or remove a toy. That'd be all I would expect.
Quoted from razorsedge:Even if they only come out with "mediocre".... they still may well come out on top.
Er, no. You're assuming that given two mediocre pins, the deeproot would be chosen and they would 'win.' In reality, neither would be chosen, because they're luxury items.
Quoted from razorsedge:The development RAZA was claimed to be "90%" of the game.
Quoted from razorsedge:The key point people are missing is that this early prototype is not something that will be for sale.
Look, it can't be both 90% complete and an early prototype.
Quoted from razorsedge:Why on earth would anyone want to demonstrate/market/promote/release/sell something with obvious flaws?? ... or things not included/missing? ...
I'm a little mystified by this myself. Aren't you supposed to bring a prototype to an arcade to see if people will drop quarters in them (and therefore use that to predict success)? At a convention they're free to play and people will even line up even to play a crap game.
Quoted from razorsedge:Why would anyone want to promote something that is not for sale, and not for marketing? . The less video out there of a game that is not (production) RAZA, the better for deeproot. Makes total sense to promote the PRODUCTION game, later.
I'm guessing you're not in the sales, marketing or PR fields.
Quoted from Brijam:Aren't you supposed to bring a prototype to an arcade to see if people will drop quarters in them (and therefore use that to predict success)? At a convention they're free to play and people will even line up even to play a crap game.
That can be a huge difference.
I've seen it in my arcade. Video games and pinball. What people will actually put money in can be quite a surprise. And what they won't, even bigger.
And with the rising cost of new pins. Many people will play it at a show. Because they know they may not get the chance otherwise. In a collection or on location. So a line of people waiting to play at a show can be deceiving.
LTG : )
That you're mystified says it all 
Totally pointless replying to that lot of misconstrued confusion. lol
Quoted from razorsedge:That you're mystified says it all
Totally pointless replying to that lot of misconstrued confusion. lol
Yeah I know right? Trying to make sense of their business model, or matching deeproot's huge promises to the only product they've shown... I have to admit, I'm totally confused.
Definitely it's easier to hope for the best. That's gone well in the past.
Düsseldorf
Quoted from kermit24:Did that TV show even air in Germany?
Yes. I loved it! 
Sydney
Quoted from Brijam:I should stop being surprised when people who aren't operators throw out opinions as to what an operator would buy, immediately after a very well known operator says the idea is DOA and gives solid reasons why. /facepalm
As an operator myself, an easier way to service pins on location would be great. Just doing basic maintenance on flippers is a pain in the ass.
But... zero interest in swappable playfields. Negative interest in fact. If a pin isn't earning for me, I want to sell it quickly. I don't want to warehouse playfields, cabinet art and translites. That's a cost, not a profit.
I'll add a few other swappable killers to the list:
A swap-friendly cabinet locks you in to the original design. Every game will have to have the same number of flipper buttons as the version 1 cabinet or you lose compatibility.
You don't just have to store the populated playfield, you have to store the cabinet art and translites, too.
You can't just store a populated playfield, cab art and translites on the floor unless you like breaking things. You will need special containers which adds unnecessary $$$. And you will need to store them in a dry, climate controlled location.
Moving a populated playfield is not going to be easy (without specialized equipment). It may be easy to get in and out of the cabinet, but you still have to move it to and from storage (and vehicles).
Reselling just a playfield will be much, much harder because the market will be a tiny fraction of pinball buyers. You have to find someone with the cabinet who doesn't already have your playfield.
Other major problem with swappable playfields is resale value. Unless you have everyone using the same base system, the resale market is significantly reduced.
Maybe someone like Stern could do it because of their market share, but even then you’d be limited to the hardware generation (ie Whitestar/Sam/Spike).
Quoted from razorsedge:No, what they are doing makes sense.
Pinside .... is being pinside lol
Agreed. What they are doing makes perfect sense and is not uncommon with new businesses. They came out of the gate swinging and hyped up their brand by making bold claims, which got a massive reaction out of the pinball community. It put them on the “map” and got people talking about them, a lot...mission achieved. Then they went dark to get some “real” work done with a very impressive group of pinball veterans. The team that deeproot assembled is sometimes overlooked...this is a very talented group. Next, at the Houston show they did some field testing of their new boards that they have developed on an early prototype, which got people talking about them yet again. I’m sure they got some useful data as they were monitoring the games with computers connected and put themselves back in the conversation...mission accomplished. Finally, they will have their official launch next month. They have not asked for $1 from any of us and along the way made good on their offer to Zidware customers, which they did not have to do. Sure they missed some deadlines, most start ups do. But with what I believe they will be showing in 36 days, everything will make sense and the pinball community will understand that they knew what they were doing all along...just my opinion of course.
Quoted from wrb1977:Agreed. What they are doing makes perfect sense and is not uncommon with new businesses
Except missing from your analysis was the whole concept of time... and what that means to a company that isn’t actually generating any revenue.
Lets not forget it will have been 2.5 years to get their first product revealed... all while supporting a staff larger than most other upstarts...
How many games have spooky launched in that time?
How about American pinball?
I love how people call missing your own deadlines by nearly 50% “making perfect sense”...
How many are still on board to receive their paid in full RAZA? Guessing about 50 people, maybe as high as 100? Those folks have a vested interest in seeing Deeproot succeed. Everyone else is in a wait and see mode. Show us something that wows us and we may get excited.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:How many are still on board to receive their paid in full RAZA? Guessing about 50 people, maybe as high as 100?
I'm in... we (my son and I) are going to TPF for the first time. We've never been to that event. We are so excited to see what RAZA has to offer and learn more about what Deeproot's future titles are.
As an added bonus 
DR has offered to fly us, lodge us and extend a weekend pass (subject to getting reimbursement), to those who were loyal and didn't accept the buy-back and took a game instead. We are very grateful for this offer, as like past years; we couldn't have gone to TPF
Quoted from flynnibus:Except missing from your analysis was the whole concept of time... and what that means to a company that isn’t actually generating any revenue.
Lets not forget it will have been 2.5 years to get their first product revealed... all while supporting a staff larger than most other upstarts...
How many games have spooky launched in that time?
How about American pinball?
I love how people call missing your own deadlines by nearly 50% “making perfect sense”...
You have a very good point regarding time, but in this particular case time is not as big of a factor as is with a typical startup. What’s so exciting is I believe they are building everything from the ground up and have the time and financial resources to do it “right” and really change the industry in a positive way. Deeproot pinball is only one future source of revenue for the deeproot family of companies. This group currently consists of four separate companies: deeproot Studios, deeproot Tech, deeproot Capital, and deeproot Funds. Notice the last two. I do not have any first hand information about these companies but am speculating that they are more than profitable enough to support the pinball division for whatever time is needed until they become a profitable entity within the deeproot family.
Quoted from Kerry_Richard:We are very grateful for this offer,
Glad you get to go. Hope you have a great time at TPF and Deep Root !
LTG : )
Quoted from wrb1977:have the time and financial resources to do it “right” and really change the industry in a positive way.
I hope so. It remains to be seen. We'll know more soon.
LTG : )
Quoted from wrb1977:You have a very good point regarding time, but in this particular case time is not as big of a factor as is with a typical startup. What’s so exciting is I believe they are building everything from the ground up and have the time and financial resources to do it “right” and really change the industry in a positive way
Man... you drank the koolaid, bought the T-Shirt AND mug...
The only factor in your point above is having a bigger reserve tank before you run empty. Simply put.. more runway. That doesn't negate that the money is spent. And unlike other industries... there is no Golden Parachute buyout at the end. Deeproot pinball isn't going to get bought up by a bigger fish. So all monies spent need to be recovered from one place... sales. Sure you can have a sugar daddy giving you free money... but the ROI has to come from sales. So the longer you are burning money.. it simply makes the hole deeper.
Quoted from wrb1977:Deeproot pinball is only one future source of revenue for the deeproot family of companies. This group currently consists of four separate companies: deeproot Studios, deeproot Tech, deeproot Capital, and deeproot Funds. Notice the last two. I do not have any first hand information about these companies but am speculating that they are more than profitable enough to support the pinball division for whatever time is needed until they become a profitable entity within the deeproot family.
Again... where do you recover the money spent? The point isn't if someone can afford to keep throwing money away.. the point is it's all a business. They are expecting to make money. The longer you run in the red.. the harder and harder that becomes.
You kind of have it backwards a bit.. Deeproot pinball is a child of the parent legal entities.. they existed prior. And deeproot studios is just a fancy way of trying to market the team he pulled together for other projects. Unless they are making sales... it really doesn't matter in this conversation if it's 1 company, or 6. They are digging a huge hole that eventually needs to be filled back in with margin from sales.
No 'perfect sense' strategy tries to put the company so far in the hole to start. And no, having a sugar daddy asset fund to feed you operating dollars isn't really 'strategy' either. It's simply having a parachute to bail out the capital needs. It's a safety net, not a strategy.
Quoted from flynnibus:Man... you drank the koolaid, bought the T-Shirt AND mug...
So far as I have seen, no one has had to buy anything yet. Not from this side of the fence anyway.
So what do you have to lose? DR is taking the risk.
Quoted from flynnibus:Man... you drank the koolaid, bought the T-Shirt AND mug...
The only factor in your point above is having a bigger reserve tank before you run empty. Simply put.. more runway. That doesn't negate that the money is spent. And unlike other industries... there is no Golden Parachute buyout at the end. Deeproot pinball isn't going to get bought up by a bigger fish. So all monies spent need to be recovered from one place... sales. Sure you can have a sugar daddy giving you free money... but the ROI has to come from sales. So the longer you are burning money.. it simply makes the hole deeper.Again... where do you recover the money spent? The point isn't if someone can afford to keep throwing money away.. the point is it's all a business. They are expecting to make money. The longer you run in the red.. the harder and harder that becomes.
You kind of have it backwards a bit.. Deeproot pinball is a child of the parent legal entities.. they existed prior. And deeproot studios is just a fancy way of trying to market the team he pulled together for other projects. Unless they are making sales... it really doesn't matter in this conversation if it's 1 company, or 6. They are digging a huge hole that eventually needs to be filled back in with margin from sales.
No 'perfect sense' strategy tries to put the company so far in the hole to start. And no, having a sugar daddy asset fund to feed you operating dollars isn't really 'strategy' either. It's simply having a parachute to bail out the capital needs. It's a safety net, not a strategy.
All very valid points...I appreciate your view and your response. No offense taken on your opening comment as I actually did find it funny...I haven’t drank any koolaid (hope to have a t-shirt someday ), but I do have kind of a “blind faith” when it comes to deeproot, maybe it’s just wishful thinking? I’ve had a good “gut feeling” about them from the very beginning. I hope I am right about what they have in store for us, cause if they fail, I see nothing in the pipeline from anyone to change the path we are on of lower quality and higher prices. Companies like Stern, which I do like very much, need challenged and to feel threatened to cause them to change for the better and I feel deeproot is the only shot we have right now for significant positive change in the industry. Otherwise, I just feel it’s going to be more of the same for the foreseeable future.
Steve Bowden seems to be really into Sonic Hedgehog lately. Not a big fan but would kind of be perfect for pinball.
Quoted from wrb1977:Companies like Stern, which I do like very much, need challenged and to feel threatened to cause them to change for the better
Been doing my part with that. I have purchased 1 JJP nib and 2 AP nib since my last Stern purchase. And next purchase will be a Golden Tee.
If Deeproot turns out awesome I am open.
Quoted from wrb1977:All very valid points...I appreciate your view and your response. No offense taken on your opening comment as I actually did find it funny...I haven’t drank any koolaid (hope to have a t-shirt someday ), but I do have kind of a “blind faith” when it comes to deeproot, maybe it’s just wishful thinking? I’ve had a good “gut feeling” about them from the very beginning.
I just look at it from the math point and what their leadership tells us. And i’m not going to fawn over made up terms to make it sound like they’ve created a better mousetrap. If deeproot truly acts as a disruptor and makes it work - fan-fucking-tastic. But I’m a “convince me...” type... and literally nothing the man has said has made me more confident then I was before he opened his mouth. That’s why I feel the way I do about their future. I hope they do come up with some great stuff... I just don’t don’t see how they make it work.
Or maybe he does have some new wild market he plans to attack... with lots of volume and new buyers. But frankly the closer we get to his reveal... the more he goes “traditional market”... not the bold future he promised.
Those that boast about themselves rub me horribly wrong, and that’s all RM would do while pushing impossible statements. Not even bold pushes... just complete horseshit that stunk the moment it left his lips.
I just want to see games worth taking note of next month. Lets see what they put on the floor.
Quoted from Fulltilt:So far as I have seen, no one has had to buy anything yet. Not from this side of the fence anyway.
So what do you have to lose? DR is taking the risk.
Because they inserted themselves into this market — they are part of it. From messing with the talent pool, to trying to be a player in the IP pool, to playing with hobbyists and their past deals with JPOP. They are an entity in the mix.
The whole “they haven’t taken anyone’s money” line is just a tired attempt to quash any critical thought about a company. Right or wrong... they’ve made waves in the pool.
Pretty funny Lol
The only people whom seem to be relentlesly whinging about how DR is conducting its startup, looks like either people with a history of being fu@#€d by preorder companies (which has nothing to do with DR, in fact they helped, so why hate?), or some people whom for whatever reason took it personally when RM called out the value standard from pinball makers as being crap. Which was in fact a perfectly justified and reasonable statement. Stating the obvious, except to those with the blinkers on. For brickheads it's a given I guess 
Just a bunch of the same regulars, grinding their axes and pitchforks. Grumpy people bitching about their random, barely relevant, stuff in the new pinball threads. Pinside... meh.
Luckily I'm usually happy enough to ignore the mindless bs and negativity of "the grumpies". The fantastic elements of Pinside in general is more than fun enough to overpower having to look through their rubbish.
Paris
Quoted from razorsedge:Pretty funny Lol
The only people whom seem to be relentlesly whinging about how DR is conducting its startup, looks like either people with a history of being fu@#€d by preorder companies (which has nothing to do with DR, in fact they helped, so why hate?), or some people whom for whatever reason took it personally when RM called out the value standard from pinball makers as being crap. Which was in fact a perfectly justified and reasonable statement. Stating the obvious, except to those with the blinkers on. For brickheads it's a given I guess
Just a bunch of the same regulars, grinding their axes and pitchforks. Grumpy people bitching about their random, barely relevant, stuff in the new pinball threads. Pinside... meh.
Luckily I'm usually happy enough to ignore the mindless bs and negativity of "the grumpies". The fantastic elements of Pinside in general is more than fun enough to overpower having to look through their rubbish.
+ 1. A lot of self analyse expert who will never buy those pins no matter what.
Really surprises all those new pages with nothing new but the same talk over and over again about the funding. I think we got it.
Quoted from razorsedge:Pretty funny Lol
The only people whom seem to be relentlesly whinging about how DR is conducting its startup, looks like either people with a history of being fu@#€d by preorder companies (which has nothing to do with DR, in fact they helped, so why hate?), or some people whom for whatever reason took it personally when RM called out the value standard from pinball makers as being crap. Which was in fact a perfectly justified and reasonable statement. Stating the obvious, except to those with the blinkers on. For brickheads it's a given I guess
Just a bunch of the same regulars, grinding their axes and pitchforks. Grumpy people bitching about their random, barely relevant, stuff in the new pinball threads. Pinside... meh.
Luckily I'm usually happy enough to ignore the mindless bs and negativity of "the grumpies". The fantastic elements of Pinside in general is more than fun enough to overpower having to look through their rubbish.
I would just like to say that pointing out that the simple economics make no sense is not "bitching, whinging, axe grinding, or hating."
It's saying that something doesn't add up.
There seems to be too much money going in to ever come back out through sales.
Yes, it's not "our" money. But it's someone's. They will want it back. With interest.
Hopefully it's legit somehow, but it doesn't look right.
Quoted from RCA1:I would just like to say that pointing out that the simple economics make no sense is not "bitching, whinging, axe grinding, or hating."
It's saying that something doesn't add up.
There seems to be too much money going in to ever come back out through sales.
Yes, it's not "our" money. But it's someone's. They will want it back. With interest.
Hopefully it's legit somehow, but it doesn't look right.
Simple economics is only a small part of any "equation". Have we ever considered maybe he doesn't really care to get it (the outlay) back? ... although still if successful there would still be *some value in the "successful" company, to sell, to recover. It doesn't matter to him, it seems.
Shouldn't matter so much to us.
There are always more possibilities than one considers.
It is pinball. People do irrational shit.
How else would BBB exist... ?
So be it.
Enjoy playing pinball! 
Quoted from Rondogg:Steve Bowden seems to be really into Sonic Hedgehog lately. Not a big fan but would kind of be perfect for pinball.
Isn't there a sonic movie or something coming out?
Quoted from razorsedge:Luckily I'm usually happy enough to ignore the mindless bs and negativity of "the grumpies".
Are you sure about that? 
Quoted from razorsedge:looks like either people with a history of being fu@#€d by preorder companies (which has nothing to do with DR, in fact they helped, so why hate?)
Because if you think that - you're either naive, or obtuse.
Why is deeproot paying for the lawyers for zidware's bankruptcy? Who do you think is trying to benefit from zidware's bankruptcy?
Quoted from razorsedge:Just a bunch of the same regulars, grinding their axes and pitchforks. Grumpy people bitching about their random, barely relevant, stuff in the new pinball threads. Pinside... meh.
Quoted from flynnibus:Because if you think that - you're either naive, or obtuse.
Why is deeproot paying for the lawyers for zidware's bankruptcy? Who do you think is trying to benefit from zidware's bankruptcy?
Is there a pineapple stuck up your bum or something? Lol 
Cheer up mate! 
Quoted from razorsedge:Is there a pineapple stuck up your bum or something? Lol
Cheer up mate!
I can only assume this is how you go through life...
tenor (6).gif
Instead of addressing the concern, you just ignore it and deflect. No wonder you see no problem anywhere...
Quoted from flynnibus:I can only assume this is how you go through life...
[quoted image]
Instead of addressing the concern, you just ignore it and deflect. No wonder you see no problem anywhere...
Is it in there spikey end first? 
Take two asprin and a laxitive maybe, might feel better in the morning ?
Quoted from razorsedge:Is it in there spikey end first?
Take two asprin and a laxitive maybe, might feel better in the morning ?
You got this...
keep-calm-cause-my-world-is-full-of-rainbows-unicorns-and-glitter (resized).pngQuoted from flynnibus:You got this...[quoted image]
Nahh... I got Rick and Morty! Lol
Sorry, I just can't wipe the smile off my dial! 
It Is perhaps unfair of me to go around suggesting people simply cheer up. 
On RaM and Celts ... DR has a new standard to live up to now, over and above stern.
Particularly Spooky and Haggis playfields are good. Not that either are a volume competitor for DR, but they can still demonstrate a given level of "value" to existing pinball customers.
A "bradbury" may not be so likely... stern falling over might not be a default win. Lol
Haggis Playfields are unproven... yet you've already put them on a pedestal. No wonder it's all rainbows for you..
Haggis is basically taking the hardtop route.. and hasn't excercised any of the realities of the game's real world practicalities.. and they aren't coming from a position of experience either. Let the chaos of the real world (and an actual completed product) vet something before you declare it a winner.
Quoted from flynnibus:Haggis Playfields are unproven... yet you've already put them on a pedestal. No wonder it's all rainbows for you..
Haggis is basically taking the hardtop route.. and hasn't excercised any of the realities of the game's real world practicalities.. and they aren't coming from a position of experience either. Let the chaos of the real world (and an actual completed product) vet something before you declare it a winner.
And the Haggis hardtop is currently bonded to wood with double sided tape.
I'm definitely most intrigued to see if they do go with swappable playfields. Their settlement with zidware people for 2 free games always struck me as super generous... the notion of giving away 7k or 8k games, that's big! I've wondered if they had swappable games in mind here, easier to satisfy that settlement maybe?
Seems like Levi and others make good points about it, it is a proposition with some serious hurdles it would seem
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Noone wants swappable playfields.
That may be true, and I never said they did. What people want and what people get arent always the same thing.
Alls I said was, Deeproot is obligated to give some zidware buyers two games. It might be cheaper to satisfy that obligation with one game and an extra swappable playfield, right?
It probably wouldn't be much cheaper, and a lot of people would be pretty unhappy. I was just wondering outloud if that could possibly help convince them to go with a swappable route, generally. I'm not a fan of the idea, so hope not!
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Noone wants swappable playfields.
If rumors prove true, he will be getting what he wished for.
Quoted from Fulltilt:So far as I have seen, no one has had to buy anything yet. Not from this side of the fence anyway.
So what do you have to lose? DR is taking the risk.
Better to be cautious and wary than stupid and oblivious, ESPECIALLY with the history of small pinball startups. There's a reason the term 'irrational exuberance' exists.
Quoted from flynnibus:Right or wrong... they’ve made waves in the pool.
You got that right! 7500+ posts later and it's still speculation.
Quoted from Frax:Better to be cautious and wary than stupid and oblivious, ESPECIALLY with the history of small pinball startups. There's a reason the term 'irrational exuberance' exists.
Been there done that with Jpop.
Quoted from Frax:Better to be cautious and wary than stupid and oblivious, ESPECIALLY with the history of small pinball startups. There's a reason the term 'irrational exuberance' exists.
What is there to be cautious about right now? ... have you been asked to pay for something??
Lol
Stuck in pre-paid model land I guess.
Quoted from Frax:Better to be cautious and wary than stupid and oblivious, ESPECIALLY with the history of small pinball startups. There's a reason the term 'irrational exuberance' exists.
The history of small pinball startups is irrelevant...this is NOT that.
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