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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#7451 4 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,545

Quoted from flynnibus:

It doesnt work financially...it’s already been spelled out numerous times.
How much cheaper can you really sell the kit... when the kit really represents 99% of the development and 75% of the costs? Why would customers want to buy a kit for say.. 15% less than a full game? You just can’t get the price low enough to make it attractive verse all the tradeoffs you have.
P3 tries to address this by making the kit “smaller” in that its just the upper portion and software... trying to drive their bom per unit down. But it exaggerated the tradeoff... in that games are even more similar.. etc.

Yeah the "swapable playfield" model is one of my favorite things to trash. It's been a while!

Nobody here wants one game and a bunch of playfields. Makes for a pretty shitty game room. People like having a bunch of games lined up next to each other. Kinda the point of a "home gameroom."

"Swapping" playfields - no matter how easy - is always going to be a pain in the ass. Have fun playing drunk dollar games with your bros and swapping playfields every 4 games.

Not even a huge space saver. Playfields are huge. Why....they are almost as long as pinball machines! not like you'd be able to easily store them under your game.

This model has been tried many times before and it's always been a huge failure. Why would it succeed now?

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#7452 4 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yeah the "swapable playfield" model is one of my favorite things to trash. It's been a while!
Nobody here wants one game and a bunch of playfields. Makes for a pretty shitty game room. People like having a bunch of games lined up next to each other. Kinda the point of a "home gameroom."
"Swapping" playfields - no matter how easy - is always going to be a pain in the ass. Have fun playing drunk dollar games with your bros and swapping playfields every 4 games.
Not even a huge space saver. Playfields are huge. Why....they are almost as long as pinball machines! not like you'd be able to easily store them under your game.
This model has been tried many times before and it's always been a huge failure. Why would it succeed now?

Were games in excess of $10,000 when this was a failure? Again not saying its a total solution but with pricing and old chip tech now obsolete (pin2000 changing chips was a joke) its hard to say its Bad because nobody did it right before? Many can't afford to have 40 pinball machines in the house. I could keep a playfield under a game and swap it if it was a plug and play. This argument seems very similar to slot machines. To swap over a slot back in the day was a Crazy pain in the butt from glass to chips to reels. Now, I can swap over my Bally/Williams slots in minutes when we grow tired of the game with a monitor sway and an SD card easy.

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#7453 4 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,234

Quoted from Yelobird:

While I understand your points I don't fully agree on your math? A simple populated playfield would be no where Near half or less the cost of a complete game. Boards, computers, audio systems, packaging, cabinets, factory assets, the list goes on. Agree it would have to be done right but I for one would love to see this attempted correctly. Similar to the 1k Pin2000 playfields even if they were 2500 it would beat the current escalation of 10k new games for me. Would be fun to see. Playfield, translite, and USB stick UPS I'm in.

Everyone has moved to modular boards. Boards are on the PF now... only the CPU is separate.
Really all you are re-using is the cabinet, metal work, LCD, speakers, CPU... and the cabinet is the most expensive piece out of all of that. Even if I left out coindoor, buttons, etc.. you're still in the far far minority of the cost of a game's run. The point isn't what the physical BOM of the PF is alone - but all the money needed to develop the game as well. They can't half that part of their costs simply because they are not shipping physical cabinets, etc. So the net remains the same... reduced costs, but not so much that you can afford to sell games at prices that make the 'cartridge' model work.

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#7454 4 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,545

Quoted from Yelobird:

Were games in excess of $10,000 when this was a failure? Again not saying its a total solution but with pricing and old chip tech now obsolete (pin2000 changing chips was a joke) its hard to say its Bad because nobody did it right before? Many can't afford to have 40 pinball machines in the house. I could keep a playfield under a game and swap it if it was a plug and play. This argument seems very similar to slot machines. To swap over a slot back in the day was a Crazy pain in the butt from glass to chips to reels. Now, I can swap over my Bally/Williams slots in minutes when we grow tired of the game with a monitor sway and an SD card easy.

The swap model goes counter to EVERY SINGLE TREND of pinball home ownership of the past 10 years. Generic cabinet art is NOT what people want now. They want a bank of expensive pinball machines in all of their glory, with each one of these games sporting custom shooter rods, powdercoated "armor", unique toppers, unique artwork, color-coded light up flipper buttons, cup holders that match the game, and any number of other add-on garbage that runs directly counter to the "swap model" concept.

They want an impressive bank of games lined up next to each other for their spouse and friends to humor them with and feign interest, not one generic cabinet and an unwieldy stack of populated playfields.

You bring up "40 games." Who the hell needs 40 games? Anybody who does, well, they'll buy 40 games. They aren't gonna buy 1 game and 39 other playfields they need to store somewhere.

The ONLY market that really exists for this dumb product is operators, and they've already soundly rejected the concept countless times. If Deep Root or any other manufacturer is spending time and resources on this concept, they may as well be burning that cash out in the parking lot.

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#7455 4 years ago
 
LFS

pinballaddicted

Pinside member

9y 123K 4,412 81

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

That‘d be like everyone.
So plz share your own info.

Ask your distro would be a good place to start. I sure they can tell you the ratio of sales pro to prem/LE.

It is not my place to say.

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#7456 4 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The swap model goes counter to EVERY SINGLE TREND of pinball home ownership of the past 10 years. Generic cabinet art is NOT what people want now. They want a bank of expensive pinball machines in all of their glory, with each one of these games sporting custom shooter rods, powdercoated "armor", unique toppers, unique artwork, color-coded light up flipper buttons, cup holders that match the game, and any number of other add-on garbage that runs directly counter to the "swap model" concept.
They want an impressive bank of games lined up next to each other for their spouse and friends to humor them with and feign interest, not one generic cabinet and an unwieldy stack of populated playfields.
You bring up "40 games." Who the hell needs 40 games? Anybody who does, well, they'll buy 40 games. They aren't gonna buy 1 game and 39 other playfields they need to store somewhere.
The ONLY market that really exists for this dumb product is operators, and they've already soundly rejected the concept countless times. If Deep Root or any other manufacturer is spending time and resources on this concept, they may as well be burning that cash out in the parking lot.

Can't argue your position as I understand your view. With that said, with the Home user taking a majority roll in these sales (way more than the past for sure) what they Want (a big line of expensive games) and what they can have/afford may influence the need to revisit this concept in my opinion. As for an operator, I could Totally see them backing this concept as service and keeping the games fresh/new is what generates them revenue. So long as from lessons learned the concept is seamless and simple.

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#7457 4 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,545

Quoted from Yelobird:

Can't argue your position as I understand your view. With that said, with the Home user taking a majority roll in these sales (way more than the past for sure) what the Want (a big line of expensive games) and what they can have/afford may influence the need to revisit this concept in my opinion. As for an operator, I could Totally see them backing this concept as service and keeping the games fresh/new is what generates them revenue. So long as from lessons learned the concept is seamless and simple.

I suppose we'll see!

As an owner or operator the real benefit I'd see from a genuinely simple and breezy swap system would be servicing. Ease of removing a playfield completely, ability to swap a broken one with a good one...some benefits there. But if pinball has taught us anything in the past 40 years, it's that "mo' connectors, mo' problems."

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#7458 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

Ask your distro would be a good place to start. I sure they can tell you the ratio of sales pro to prem/LE.
It is not my place to say.

Your local distro can only tell you about 25% of Sterns market share.

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#7459 4 years ago
 
STK

flynnibus

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 134K 13,234

Quoted from Yelobird:

With that said, with the Home user taking a majority roll in these sales (way more than the past for sure) what they Want (a big line of expensive games) and what they can have/afford may influence the need to revisit this concept in my opinion

Which means you're looking at this purely as a 'way to reduce prices'.. and what it doesn't do is really reduce what it takes to develop a game... only influences the material BOM. That's why it's not going to the move the needle enough to reach that utopia you want.

Customers are going to see '1/3rd the game' and hence want to pay '1/3rd the price' - and you'll never get there.

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#7460 4 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from flynnibus:

Which means you're looking at this purely as a 'way to reduce prices'.. and what it doesn't do is really reduce what it takes to develop a game... only influences the material BOM. That's why it's not going to the move the needle enough to reach that utopia you want.
Customers are going to see '1/3rd the game' and hence want to pay '1/3rd the price' - and you'll never get there.

I was actually referring the now concern for many home collectors of Space. We are not hoarding watches. These are toys the size of refrigerators layer down. Having to sell a game you rather enjoy to fit a newer interesting title can be a pill and definitely a poor resale solution. Yes if the price goes down for a change vs up no matter what percentage it seems like something to consider again. Sorry with premium titles balancing on 10k and going up steady I would bet a Playfield does not ever cost 5k even if it was hand delivered.

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#7461 4 years ago
 
???

squirrlyjr

Pinside member

US Annandale, NJ

9y 24,050 23 2

Quoted from Yelobird:

Were games in excess of $10,000 when this was a failure? Again not saying its a total solution but with pricing and old chip tech now obsolete (pin2000 changing chips was a joke) its hard to say its Bad because nobody did it right before? Many can't afford to have 40 pinball machines in the house. I could keep a playfield under a game and swap it if it was a plug and play. This argument seems very similar to slot machines. To swap over a slot back in the day was a Crazy pain in the butt from glass to chips to reels. Now, I can swap over my Bally/Williams slots in minutes when we grow tired of the game with a monitor sway and an SD card easy.

My use case is slightly different as I wouldn't want modular playfields to have a few different ones stored in the attic, although that makes sense too. I want a convenient way to trade with fellow pinsiders and keep my game fresh every few months. Swapping entire machines is a huge effort for a casual pinball fan like myself, but a playfield swap has the potential to be much more manageable. Sign me up for a bustling playfield swappable marketplace

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#7462 4 years ago
 
BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,629 104

What did Robert say, in the last Kaneda podcast interview, or write in any public announcement, that makes some of you think that deeproot would be going the route of swappable playfields? I just don't see any evidence.

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#7463 4 years ago
 
LFS

pinballaddicted

Pinside member

9y 123K 4,412 81

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Your local distro can only tell you about 25% of Sterns market share.

That is a good start!

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#7464 4 years ago
 
JLG

JodyG

Ramp-O-Matic

6y 143K 4,612 6 21 1

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

What did Robert say, in the last Kaneda podcast interview, or write in any public announcement, that makes some of you think that deeproot would be going the route of swappable playfields? I just don't see any evidence.

They patented a playfield removal mechanism.

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#7465 4 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,797

Been working on these shippable, somewhat stackable storage bins for swappable playfields now that the future is here.

Also been working on state of the art foam so all those mechs and boards on the underside and all those plastics and ramps on the topside will rarely get damaged.
download (resized).jpgdownload (resized).jpg

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#7466 4 years ago
 
BTF

PinballManiac40

Pinside+ Frequent

14y 234K 17,629 104

Quoted from JodyG:

They patented a playfield removal mechanism.

That just looks like something to allow for easy game repair/shop out.

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#7467 4 years ago
 
C F

frolic

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 149K 9,809

Quoted from flynnibus:

Which means you're looking at this purely as a 'way to reduce prices'.. and what it doesn't do is really reduce what it takes to develop a game... only influences the material BOM. That's why it's not going to the move the needle enough to reach that utopia you want.
Customers are going to see '1/3rd the game' and hence want to pay '1/3rd the price' - and you'll never get there.

Also, that $750k a month cash burn has zero to do with BOM. All of that money has to be baked into the price.

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#7468 4 years ago
 
TOM

BigT

Pinside+ Frequent

US Smithville, MO

10y 79,550 706 4

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The swap model goes counter to EVERY SINGLE TREND of pinball home ownership of the past 10 years. Generic cabinet art is NOT what people want now. They want a bank of expensive pinball machines in all of their glory, with each one of these games sporting custom shooter rods, powdercoated "armor", unique toppers, unique artwork, color-coded light up flipper buttons, cup holders that match the game, and any number of other add-on garbage that runs directly counter to the "swap model" concept.
They want an impressive bank of games lined up next to each other for their spouse and friends to humor them with and feign interest, not one generic cabinet and an unwieldy stack of populated playfields.
You bring up "40 games." Who the hell needs 40 games? Anybody who does, well, they'll buy 40 games. They aren't gonna buy 1 game and 39 other playfields they need to store somewhere.
The ONLY market that really exists for this dumb product is operators, and they've already soundly rejected the concept countless times. If Deep Root or any other manufacturer is spending time and resources on this concept, they may as well be burning that cash out in the parking lot.

As a small home collector, I agree with you. I have room for 4-6 pins. When I play I want to turn all of them on and play. When one of them frustrates me I want to hit the start button on the other one. I don’t want to swap play fields. When I go to other collectors home they have all of the games on. The process of swapping play fields is not a desirable feature.

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#7469 4 years ago
 
RAC

Gunnut40

Pinside+ Frequent

US Spottsville, KY

6y 75,800 1,442 8

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

39

Count down to the fyre festival?

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#7470 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

That is a good start!

So then do it.

And then ask the 50% Arcade/ Barcade market and the 25% home owners overseas who pay a couple of thousand bucks more for a game and you'll see you're wrong. :-*

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#7471 4 years ago
 
LFS

pinballaddicted

Pinside member

9y 123K 4,412 81

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So then do it.
And then ask the 50% Arcade/ Barcade market and the 25% home owners overseas who pay a couple of thousand bucks more for a game and you'll see you're wrong. :-*

All good. That is what I love about Pinside, there are plenty of people that know everything about everything so I will admit I am wrong just for you.

However FYI.
I asked Gary Stern his production percentages the last time he was in Australia so I have a pretty good idea what they are. I also asked him what percentages went to each different market. He was happy to give percentages and is not happy to give out numbers. It is not my place to give out the info he gave me. You seem to already have all your own answers so why bother asking anyone else?

This is also a Deep Root thread.

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#7472 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

All good. That is what I love about Pinside, there are plenty of people that know everything about everything so I will admit I am wrong just for you.
However FYI.
I asked Gary Stern his production percentages the last time he was in Australia so I have a pretty good idea what they are. I also asked him what percentages went to each different market. He was happy to give percentages and is not happy to give out numbers. It is not my place to give out the info he gave me. You seem to already have all your own answers so why bother asking anyone else?
This is also a Deep Root thread.

The percentages I just mentioned are what Gary keeps telling everyone.

50% home, 50% location gaming.

50% domestic, 50% overseas.

Of course profits are way higher on Premium/LE but you won‘t find anything else but Pros on location here; markets just too small and prices way higher.

Just wanting to say that nothing of this paints the whole picture.

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#7473 4 years ago
 
WRB

wrb1977

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 70,800 947 10 7

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

What did Robert say, in the last Kaneda podcast interview, or write in any public announcement, that makes some of you think that deeproot would be going the route of swappable playfields? I just don't see any evidence.

Exactly.

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#7474 4 years ago
 
BJ.

Brijam

Inactive member

Unknown

9y 58,300 1,093 26 23

I should stop being surprised when people who aren't operators throw out opinions as to what an operator would buy, immediately after a very well known operator says the idea is DOA and gives solid reasons why. /facepalm

As an operator myself, an easier way to service pins on location would be great. Just doing basic maintenance on flippers is a pain in the ass.

But... zero interest in swappable playfields. Negative interest in fact. If a pin isn't earning for me, I want to sell it quickly. I don't want to warehouse playfields, cabinet art and translites. That's a cost, not a profit.

I'll add a few other swappable killers to the list:

A swap-friendly cabinet locks you in to the original design. Every game will have to have the same number of flipper buttons as the version 1 cabinet or you lose compatibility.

You don't just have to store the populated playfield, you have to store the cabinet art and translites, too.

You can't just store a populated playfield, cab art and translites on the floor unless you like breaking things. You will need special containers which adds unnecessary $$$. And you will need to store them in a dry, climate controlled location.

Moving a populated playfield is not going to be easy (without specialized equipment). It may be easy to get in and out of the cabinet, but you still have to move it to and from storage (and vehicles).

Reselling just a playfield will be much, much harder because the market will be a tiny fraction of pinball buyers. You have to find someone with the cabinet who doesn't already have your playfield.

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#7475 4 years ago
 
WRB

wrb1977

Pinside member

US Pittsburgh, PA

8y 70,800 947 10 7

Quoted from JodyG:

They patented a playfield removal mechanism.

I believe this is just for ease of service. And just because they patented it doesn’t necessarily mean they will use it on the final design.

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#7476 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Quoted from mbeardsley:

OK, so then what was the whole point of their "demonstration", if what they were demonstrating was irrelevant?

They weren't demonstrating anything (nothing that would ever be sold or marketed). They were field testing their new (scratch built) electronics system, you know, that is something a company does in the field... R&D, for untested s#!t.

Not revealing a game to sell...

Why is comprehension so hard... ?

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#7477 4 years ago
 
MAN

Manic

Pinside member

US Alexandria, VA

10y 60,400 2,381 17

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

The percentages I just mentioned are what Gary keeps telling everyone.
50% home, 50% location gaming.
50% domestic, 50% overseas.
Of course profits are way higher on Premium/LE but you won‘t find anything else but Pros on location here; markets just too small and prices way higher.
Just wanting to say that nothing of this paints the whole picture.

He actually said at the BM66 party that home buyer were now 70% of his market. Maybe the increased popularity of the "barcades" since then has cut into that a little bit.

He seemed happy about it. A sale is a sale.

.

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#7478 4 years ago
 
TMB

Roostking

Pinside+ Addict

10y 106K 8,566 2

Quoted from pinballaddicted:

All good. That is what I love about Pinside, there are plenty of people that know everything about everything so I will admit I am wrong just for you.
However FYI.
I asked Gary Stern his production percentages the last time he was in Australia so I have a pretty good idea what they are. I also asked him what percentages went to each different market. He was happy to give percentages and is not happy to give out numbers. It is not my place to give out the info he gave me. You seem to already have all your own answers so why bother asking anyone else?
This is also a Deep Root thread.

What a cop out. Either defend your position with what Gary said, or quit fronting. Every barcade I go to has Pros.

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#7479 4 years ago
 
DAD

Yelobird

The Mod Couple

US Wheaton, IL

20y 160K 10,056 44 37

Quoted from Roostking:

What a cop out. Either defend your position with what Gary said, or quit fronting. Every barcade I go to has Pros.

It's also possible that Gary Stern Too is a sales person and really has no reason or value in sharing his market percentages to the public. In fact if he was talking to an operator he would likely say "you guys are 90% of our business and very important to us" while in turn saying the Exact same thing to a home buyer. lol Everyone wants to feel like they are in charge but in business unless a publicly traded company I wouldn't bet Anything on the numbers these companies throw out which could be why everyone seems to have a different "I heard" story.

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#7480 4 years ago
 
TGH

greenhornet

Pinside member

US Menifee, CA

6y 71,050 1,671

Quoted from razorsedge:

They weren't demonstrating anything.

dem·on·strate

1. give a practical exhibition and explanation of (how a machine, skill, or craft works or is performed). give a demonstration of, show how something works, exhibit, display.

2. clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

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#7481 4 years ago
 
BJ.

Brijam

Inactive member

Unknown

9y 58,300 1,093 26 23

Quoted from razorsedge:

The problem is quite clear to most whom paid attention to all that was actually said.
It wasn't a reveal.
What exactly do you think was revealed?
Nothing was revealed, as people kindly point out.
What was "revealed" was nothing that would be for sale. So not a "reveal" of anything new, there are some people getting confused....

Ok sure they haven't yet done a formal PR-style reveal, we all know that's happening in a month or so.

But it's a little odd to suggest nothing was revealed. RAZA was revealed to the public in a playable and very advanced state of development. Nobody really knew what it was going to look like or play like, and now we have video of gameplay. You're not suggesting that RAZA will be very much different than what we saw, are you?

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#7482 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Quoted from Brijam:

You're not suggesting that RAZA will be very much different than what we saw, are you?

I would certainly suggest that it had better be! Lol

I get the sense that it is all being deliberately downplayed. The development RAZA was claimed to be "90%" of the game. That leaves plenty to the imagination, how long is a piece of string? . 90% of What exactly?; 5-10% of playfield to go is not much stuff, but BOM$ ?? 10% of machine value is alot of stuff/gizmos/toys! > Downplaying??.

If it is true that DR is Playing Down the "amount" it is going to bring to TPF (so as to maximise the "under promise" and "over deliver"), then it would be fair to assume they would want to keep secret as much of RAZA's "Wow" as possible. RM did say a long time ago that their first effort would be a game (not for sale) that would demonstrate (to themselves & others) that they can create something on par with todays basic value offerings (below par for DR). That would be the old RAZA prototype that we saw, fits the description (even right down to the mirco playfield lol).

Under promising I think also covers letting everyone think they might only have RAZA there as a production game. If that is what people are assuming then that aspect is probably going about as planned.

I don't think it is the aim to keep customers guessing, but I would be confident that the non existent PR is intended to keep the Opposition guessing!

Everything the public can know, the opposition can know. Radio silence and holding back details across the board is the only real way that "keeping stern guessing" can be realistically achieved, I would say...

Stern will have no insight as to what will be at TPF, until it is actually underway. Seems all of this has that particular goal in mind. I'd say if that is the goal then they are succeeding.

Also, yes there is amatuer mobile phone video of a game that will never be sold in that form. I would propose that is only amatuer video because it is a game that will never be marketed. If that proto was even close to what will be on offer then I suspect DR would have wanted to ensure good gameplay video was made (available). The fact that it was not only supports the position that the prototype DR platform that was shown was out there more for deeproot to test stuff in the real world, and also show that they have created "something". ... imagine if the RAZA proto was never seen? ... the Zidware folk would be getting even more skeptical than they might be now.

The way things are happening is entirely consistent with the series of RM interviews over the years, albeit behind schedule.

If "behind schedule" is the only real issue (from TPF 2019) , then they have not got too much to worry about. Time will tell.

Even if they only come out with "mediocre".... they still may well come out on top. The way stern is going at the moment Deeproot could "pull a Bradbury" on their sorry arses!

*Pull a Bradbury : Take the win from behind, as the opposition all falls over!

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#7483 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Quoted from greenhornet:

dem·on·strate
1. give a practical exhibition and explanation of (how a machine, skill, or craft works or is performed). give a demonstration of, show how something works, exhibit, display.
2. clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

The key point people are missing is that this early prototype is not something that will be for sale. It is a machine, a test type, intended for testing their "platform" and to "show something" (but not something for sale). Remember, this is a boardset newly developed from the ground up, they had to put something in a box to test the transportability and other factors. The manky RAZA early protos that have probably been getting played at DR for the past year or more, are the obvious candidates to test the platform reliability/operation/performance in alternative conditions (because they reveal nothing much more than the basic Zidware RAZA concepts, keeping all the secrets/surprises from gaz lol).

The RAZA prot. we have seen is surely more than anyone could have ever expected from Zidware, on a good day, I rekon. But, there will be a fair bit more to RAZA production game I think, if not it will basically be a fizzer.

Why would anyone want to promote something that is not for sale, and not for marketing? . The less video out there of a game that is not (production) RAZA, the better for deeproot. Makes total sense to promote the PRODUCTION game, later.

No different to Spooky/AS holding back showing profesional extensive RaM streams for months, until the PRODUCTION game is ready. The less video out there of what you Are Not Selling, unfinished, the better. People get confused too easily ....

I would not call Williams putting proto games on location a "demonstration", either. It is simply what it is; a field test of a flawed prototype. Not of the final product. Why on earth would anyone want to demonstrate/market/promote/release/sell something with obvious flaws?? ... or things not included/missing? ...

...

Hey, Gaz!?!?? ... get over here!

Lol

<mic drop>

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#7484 4 years ago
 
KCI

KerryImming

Pinside member

11y 43,300 245

Quoted from Roostking:

Every barcade I go to has Pros.

Here in Minnesota the barcades have premiums and LEs. Since they cycle through machines, resale value becomes part of the overall profit. I believe they also bring in more players.

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#7485 4 years ago
 
OFF

spoke

Pinside member

US Bridgton, ME

6y 31,400 153 11

If the goal was to test the electronics, why not just bring in some local players, put them on an NDA, take away their phones, tell them that is the goal and get a bunch of plays and feedback. You could easily have gotten the same amount of play as they did at the show and been in a better position to get feedback and to assess it and there would not be shitting cell phone footage of the machines being out there.

If the goal of showing it was to lower expectations and then surpass them with the reveal, then it might have been better to have not been promoting that their games were going to have the greatest innovation since the the flipper.

Roberts bluster and braggadocio has been second to none (well except maybe one guy outside of pinball), hard to see them living up to the hype he has created. So far they have consistently fallen short of the hype, expectations and goals Robert has created, not others. However, I will give him credit for opening his wallet (with someone else's money) to make good to the jpop victims when they did miss their deliverables of 'multiple games' being available last June. Maybe at some point they will deliver on some aspects of the hype, but I have my doubts.

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#7486 4 years ago
 
MAB

mbeardsley

Pinside member

5y 68,800 2,390

Quoted from razorsedge:

I get the sense that it is all being deliberately downplayed.
If it is true that DR is Playing Down the "amount" it is going to bring to TPF (so as to maximise the "under promise" and "over deliver"), then it would be fair to assume they would want to keep secret as much of RAZA's "Wow" as possible.

Sure, except that "over promise and under deliver" is what deeproot has done from day one. Makes it hard to believe that they would (or could) change now.

And your idea that they are doing this to somehow confuse Stern doesn't really work. Firstly, I doubt that Stern even really cares, secondly they have damaged their own reputation with potential customers by showing/demonstrating/revealing/testing (whatever word you want to call it) an obviously non-innovative product.

If the RAZA we saw was 90% complete, what additional 10% could possibly change it from a "meh" game to "oh my god, Stern and JJP are toast now" game?

Even if it WAS an amazing swappable playfield system, that's not going to radically change pinball. The only way RAZA (even with an extra 50%) is going to change anything is if the retail price is $2500 and it is available in the electronics department at Walmart.

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#7487 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

38

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#7488 4 years ago
 
RON

Rondogg

Pinside member

11y 109K 3,341

Quoted from Brijam:

I should stop being surprised when people who aren't operators throw out opinions as to what an operator would buy, immediately after a very well known operator says the idea is DOA and gives solid reasons why. /facepalm
As an operator myself, an easier way to service pins on location would be great. Just doing basic maintenance on flippers is a pain in the ass.
But... zero interest in swappable playfields. Negative interest in fact. If a pin isn't earning for me, I want to sell it quickly. I don't want to warehouse playfields, cabinet art and translites. That's a cost, not a profit.
I'll add a few other swappable killers to the list:
A swap-friendly cabinet locks you in to the original design. Every game will have to have the same number of flipper buttons as the version 1 cabinet or you lose compatibility.
You don't just have to store the populated playfield, you have to store the cabinet art and translites, too.
You can't just store a populated playfield, cab art and translites on the floor unless you like breaking things. You will need special containers which adds unnecessary $$$. And you will need to store them in a dry, climate controlled location.
Moving a populated playfield is not going to be easy (without specialized equipment). It may be easy to get in and out of the cabinet, but you still have to move it to and from storage (and vehicles).
Reselling just a playfield will be much, much harder because the market will be a tiny fraction of pinball buyers. You have to find someone with the cabinet who doesn't already have your playfield.

Add to that, software/boardsets usually change...ALL THE TIME. The days of a board set lasting for years are over. New board, new plugs etc etc.

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#7489 4 years ago
 
???

littlecammi

Pinside member

US Carol Stream, IL

11y 82,650 4,534 19

Quoted from greenhornet:

dem·on·strate

Darn! I thought he meant demon straight.

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#7490 4 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,797

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

38

3p9g6x (resized).jpg3p9g6x (resized).jpg

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#7491 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

Quoted from o-din:

[quoted image]

No, this is deeprootthread pops. :-*

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#7492 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

....aaand Stop .... it's HAMMERTIME!

Sledge Hammer time would be better though!

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#7493 4 years ago
 
MAH

wamonkey

Pinside+ Frequent

US Seattle, WA

8y 73,300 1,272 7 9

OMG - this thread is nothing but speculation after page of speculation. Time will tell....soon enough.

I enjoy the back and forth I guess.

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#7494 4 years ago
 
EWG

kermit24

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 123K 6,540

Quoted from o-din:

[quoted image]

The genius / irony in this image was lost on 90% of pinside. Classic.

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#7495 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

Quoted from kermit24:

The genius / irony in this image was lost on 90% of pinside. Classic.

Nah, it just get‘s old after the 666th time.

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#7496 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,105 2

37

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#7497 4 years ago
 
EWG

kermit24

Pinside+ Frequent

9y 123K 6,540

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Nah, it just get‘s old after the 666th time.

Did that TV show even air in Germany?

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#7498 4 years ago
 
SPB

onemoresean

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 97,050 812

I always think of this movie when 38 comes up.

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#7499 4 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,545

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Nah, it just get‘s old after the 666th time.

Yeah pointless daily Repetitive bits that contribute zero value and aren’t funny or informative can get a little old.

36.

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#7500 4 years ago
 
MAT

branlon8

Pinside member

DE Köln

9y 54,800 954 15

so are we saying now, that if we don’t have something interesting and insightful to post, we shouldn’t post at all?

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