(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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#7401 5 days ago

I expect they will show only a version of RAZA only slightly modified from what we've already seen.
If they reveal pricing it will be more than a Stern Pro, but slightly less that a Stern Premium.
That way then can claim they are providing a "Premium" machine for less than Stern.
They will also talk about "lots of other machines" being ready "soon", but no details on any of them.

#7402 5 days ago
Quoted from DanDanDAN:

the top price point is, give or take a few dollars is $3K.

"The Pin version 1" I believe came out at $2999, and even that was too high for this market. I remember Gary at CES that year giving interviews and would take people's breath away (not in a good way) when giving the price, in light of the fact that they are at CES and surrounded by much cheaper entertainment.

I'm not even sure how well a pinball priced at fuseball table prices ($999) would sell. It would sell "some", but still not a mass market thing. And as you pointed out, most of us here wouldn't consider that a real pinball.

#7403 5 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

I'm not even sure how well a pinball priced at fuseball table prices ($999) would sell. It would sell "some", but still not a mass market thing. And as you pointed out, most of us here wouldn't consider that a real pinball.

Exactly, which is why I pointed out there would have to be a HUGE marketing campaign to make pinball a desired luxury entertainment item with a mass appeal. Most average consumers have no desire for a 1-3K single use entertainment device.

Back in the 80's home pool tables were the rage for the middle/upper middle class, because to a certain degree it was a status symbol, you had "arrived" if you had one in your basement and your neighbor didn't and that drove sales. Something would have to change in the perception of pinball to the mass market to drive sales.

#7404 5 days ago
Quoted from DanDanDAN:

Something would have to change in the perception of pinball to the mass market to drive sales.

Exactly.

Competing at the mass market level with $299 video game consoles that already plug into your $$$$ home theater system, and/or high end gaming PCs with a one trick pony like a pinball machine is not a thing I would want to try and do.

It's great to have ambition, but one has to be realistic as to the total addressable market in pinball.

#7405 5 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I expect they will show only a version of RAZA only slightly modified from what we've already seen.
If they reveal pricing it will be more than a Stern Pro, but slightly less that a Stern Premium.
That way then can claim they are providing a "Premium" machine for less than Stern.
They will also talk about "lots of other machines" being ready "soon", but no details on any of them.

I've been the source of a lot of negativity in this thread, but I think your outlook is more realistic. Remember, Robert Mueller originally claimed that both Magic Girl and RAZA would be part of the initial launch, that games would be built and ready to ship before the launch, and that games would ship within two weeks of sale. It will be interesting, at minimum, to see if they'll manage to pull any of that off.

Remember, preorders for RAZA (back when Ben Heck's name was still in the title) were supposed to open in January of 2012.

#7406 5 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I expect they will show only a version of RAZA only slightly modified from what we've already seen.
.

I might be reading too much into their posted agenda, but they do list "Play games" (as in plural) a couple of times. That might be multiple of the same game or multiple different games. We'll have to see

#7407 5 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

I might be reading too much into their posted agenda, but they do list "Play games" (as in plural) a couple of times. That might be multiple of the same game or multiple different games. We'll have to see

Might just be a few monopoly boards lying around

#7408 5 days ago

I think if they were going to be showing any other titles, then those titles would have their own item on the agenda.
I think "playing games" means hitting the start button multiple times on a RAZA prototype.

I suspect the best we can hope for is a "ready for production" version of RAZA, along with pricing and pre-orders.

#7409 4 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

I think if they were going to be showing any other titles, then those titles would have their own item on the agenda.
I think "playing games" means hitting the start button multiple times on a RAZA prototype.
I suspect the best we can hope for is a "ready for production" version of RAZA, along with pricing and pre-orders.

So your saying..
I think
I think
I suspect
I expect

So basically you have no idea correct? lol While not the best laid out marketing plan from what we Know, we will all find out in March. lol

#7410 4 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

So basically you have no idea correct?

Why didn't you write that under the 7407 other postings?

#7411 4 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

So your saying..
I think
I think
I suspect
I expect
So basically you have no idea correct? lol While not the best laid out marketing plan from what we Know, we will all find out in March. lol

You are correct...I have no personal inside knowledge of their production and marketing plans.
But neither do the previous posters who claim that they expect a bunch of innovative finished titles rivaling the complexity of JJP machines available for purchase/shipping for the cost below that of a Stern Pro.

I would love for this to be true, I would also love to win the lottery...both are about equally likely.

#7412 4 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

You are correct...I have no personal inside knowledge of their production and marketing plans.
But neither do the previous posters who claim that they expect a bunch of innovative finished titles rivaling the complexity of JJP machines available for purchase/shipping for the cost below that of a Stern Pro.
I would love for this to be true, I would also love to win the lottery...both are about equally likely.

I seriously doubt that! Pmsl

#7413 4 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Do you, thedarkknight77, think the launch will happen in 42 days as scheduled?

Oh, they will launch on time with a bunch of games that are 30% done. Their launch will be followed by Seven day’s of Kaneda podcasts bashing them. We already know that their big innovation is a cabinet system with lighting, that allows for swappable playfields. What good is that concept if no one wants their titles.

#7414 4 days ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You are in the dark, knight..

We will see, but I doubt it. Deeproot = Heighway pinball 2.0

#7415 4 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Oh, they will launch on time with a bunch of games that are 30% done.

We'll see.

Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Their launch will be followed by Seven day’s of Kaneda podcasts bashing them.

At least!

Quoted from thedarkknight77:

We already know that their big innovation is a cabinet system with lighting, that allows for swappable playfields.

Yeah... that was Heighway.

#7416 4 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

These are very successfull I‘ve heard.

Ha! After I reread my post I laughed my a$$ off.

#7417 4 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Ha! After I reread my post I laughed my a$$ off.

Laughter of despair.

#7419 4 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

What good is that concept if no one wants their titles.

I do. So maybe not no one.

#7420 4 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I do. So maybe not no one.

Somebody will be into it, but Robert has been talking a big game about taking over the industry. That's the disconnect.

#7421 4 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Oh, they will launch on time with a bunch of games that are 30% done. Their launch will be followed by Seven day’s of Kaneda podcasts bashing them. We already know that their big innovation is a cabinet system with lighting, that allows for swappable playfields. What good is that concept if no one wants their titles.

thedarkknight77...we already know that their big innovation is a cabinet with interchangeable playfields? We do???

#7422 4 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

So your saying..
I think
I think
I suspect
I expect
So basically you have no idea correct? lol While not the best laid out marketing plan from what we Know, we will all find out in March. lol

Or TTSE NI, for short.

#7423 4 days ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

We already know that their big innovation is a cabinet system with lighting, that allows for swappable playfields. What good is that concept if no one wants their titles.

Not many if any really want swappable playfields either. Just one more thing for the less than capable person to screw up or break in the process.

But, the advantage being, if one playfield sucks, you can keep dropping in new ones with the hope that eventually one won't.

#7424 4 days ago

Just hoping for full featured quality games here...........

#7425 4 days ago
Quoted from frolic:

Somebody will be into it, but Robert has been talking a big game about taking over the industry. That's the disconnect.

Understood yet he nor his marketing are what’s for sale? I personally don’t care if he comes out in a clown suit as long as the team he amassed builds some great games. Ron Popeil he is not no question but I have rarely bought a product solely out of admiration for an owner or a marketing add. I simply want a pinball machine don’t really see why anything someone hypes would make a difference. Elon Musk has to be one of the Worst promoters out there but his products are amazing.

#7426 4 days ago

There are so many "experts" in the field of starting pinball companies in here... I'm shocked there are not a Plethora of new different pinball companies starting up right now?

Reality? ... posters simply full of vastly more hot air and lack of comprehension than RM himself.

It's kinda entertaining really.

There are certainly some slow posters in this thread...

#7427 3 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

There are so many "experts" in the field of starting pinball companies in here...

Here, me!

My advise: Just don't!

#7428 3 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

In Roberts last interview, he definitely walked back his earlier boasts about pricing and pivoted to "best value for the money", which tells me these games are going to be expensive. He is also banking on outselling Stern in every way. Can the market really absorb a large quantity of titles at a high price point? I don't think this is possible. $8k, $9k and up is going to price Deeproot out of a big chunk of the market. I think if you want to inflict pain to your competitors, you need to have some games priced below Stern Pro pricing with better features. Selling all of your games at or above Stern Premium pricing just makes you another boutique manufacturer.

Yeah, that's the thing. If someone wants an expensive, limited-quantity pinball machine, then they've all ready got lots of options from Spooky, JJP, Stern (with LEs), CGC, American, and possibly even still Dutch. Not to mention High-End Restorers that sell pristine collectors-quality 2nd-hand pins. What we don't have is someone manufacturing quality lower-priced machines.

What's the most popular model from Stern? The Pro, by a lot. There's a reason for that. The Price. Imagine if Deeproot could offer Premium-level pins at Pro-level prices. They'd make a killing in sales. Now imagine if they could manufacture an entry-level pin for $5000, but with the features and quality (such as it is) of a Stern Pro. They'd make even more of a killing. While a more-packed Premium is a good thing, it's not going to change the market. A better low-priced option would change the market in a lot of ways. Imagine getting a quality NIB pin for cheaper than a used Stern. The ripple effect would bring prices down on all pins on the secondary market.

Assuming that DR can produce in the necessary quantities, in a reasonable time-frame.

#7429 3 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

What's the most popular model from Stern? The Pro, by a lot.

You need to ask the person who told you that where they got their info from, it is not true.

I think DR have missed the boat. Some of the comments earlier in this thread make me wonder how many people are willing to buy their games if they ever do come out.

Hopefully they produce some games for people to play at TPF.

#7430 3 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Imagine if Deeproot could offer Premium-level pins at Pro-level prices. They'd make a killing in sales. Now imagine if they could manufacture an entry-level pin for $5000, but with the features and quality (such as it is) of a Stern Pro.

Yeah, but unfortunately it takes more than imagination.

Consider also that Stern's pricing might not be the only reason they sell more than other pinball manufacturers. Well established sales/marketing/distribution, accumulated knowledge, perceived stability, good (or conservative) design, top quality licenses, momentum... these all play a part.

I look forward to seeing the hundreds of innovations that have been touted by deeproot. Perhaps they will succeed where so many others have failed.

#7431 3 days ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

thedarkknight77...we already know that their big innovation is a cabinet with interchangeable playfields? We do???

Well, from my understanding they will offer both versions. Those who don’t like the concept won’t have to buy into it.

#7432 3 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

You need to ask the person who told you that where they got their info from, it is not true.

That‘d be like everyone.

So plz share your own info.

#7433 3 days ago

Don't forget, not only are they showing games, but they've said they have revolutionary manufacturing techniques........

Wasn't it "quad assembly" or something? Also playfield you can hit with a sledgehammer.

#7434 3 days ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Don't forget, not only are they showing games, but they've said they have revolutionary manufacturing techniques........
Wasn't it "quad assembly" or something? Also playfield you can hit with a sledgehammer.

Just kidding.

Your pal,

Robert

#7435 3 days ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Don't forget, not only are they showing games, but they've said they have revolutionary manufacturing techniques........
Wasn't it "quad assembly" or something? Also playfield you can hit with a sledgehammer.

I believe it was bumped from quad to octo.

#7436 3 days ago

The thing that bothered me the the most about the RAZA reveal was (despite the previous claims of hundreds of new pinball innovations) that there was literally nothing new or innovative about that machine.

A standard playfield in a standard cabinet using standard mechs. I didn't see anything that wasn't already being done by virtually every other manufacturer.

Yes, they claimed the "innovations" were not being shown yet, but they can't be all that revolutionary if they can build a "non-innovative" version of a machine as well as an "innovative" version.

I was expecting something like a "hardtop" playfield, and/or a hard plastic cabinet or something that would make manufacturing a pinball machine faster/cheaper than the competition. Nothing in RAZA seems easier to build than any other machine on the market.

And because of this, I don't see how deeproot expects to revolutionize the pinball landscape.

#7438 3 days ago
Quoted from brucipher:

I believe it was bumped from quad to octo.

The workforce has been waiting years for this.

octomom (resized).jpg
#7439 3 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

The thing that bothered me the the most about the RAZA reveal was (despite the previous claims of hundreds of new pinball innovations) that there was literally nothing new or innovative about that machine.
A standard playfield in a standard cabinet using standard mechs. I didn't see anything that wasn't already being done by virtually every other manufacturer.
Yes, they claimed the "innovations" were not being shown yet, but they can't be all that revolutionary if they can build a "non-innovative" version of a machine as well as an "innovative" version.
I was expecting something like a "hardtop" playfield, and/or a hard plastic cabinet or something that would make manufacturing a pinball machine faster/cheaper than the competition. Nothing in RAZA seems easier to build than any other machine on the market.
And because of this, I don't see how deeproot expects to revolutionize the pinball landscape.

The problem is quite clear to most whom paid attention to all that was actually said.

It wasn't a reveal.

What exactly do you think was revealed?

Nothing was revealed, as people kindly point out.

What was "revealed" was nothing that would be for sale. So not a "reveal" of anything new, there are some people getting confused....

#7440 3 days ago

I just want to know if Ben Heck is still practicing law without a license?

#7441 3 days ago

Octo is where they have 8 old ladies all installing parts on the same pf all at the same time!

#7442 3 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

The problem is quite clear to most whom paid attention to all that was actually said.
It wasn't a reveal.
What exactly do you think was revealed?
Nothing was revealed, as people kindly point out.
What was "revealed" was nothing that would be for sale. So not a "reveal" of anything new, there are some people getting confused....

OK, so then what was the whole point of their "demonstration", if what they were demonstrating was irrelevant?

#7443 3 days ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

OK, so then what was the whole point of their "demonstration", if what they were demonstrating was irrelevant?

My take: They weren't demonstrating anything. It was location testing. They had software devs with laptops connected to the pins and were keen to solicit feedback from those who played the games.

#7444 3 days ago

Let's see think DeepRoot has an advantage of having Texas location. Lower Taxes and lower cost.

Swap-able playfields - would be totally rad. That would make production cost less and shipping savings. Especially if
the had the cabinet design to end all cabinets. Sturdy but lite and a very easy playfield swap
that someone could do on location with a thumb drive / sd card or wifi for code.

I would love to see a company push the playfield envelope a bit more.

Give users a chance to home grow more elaborate toys with a SDK kit.

#7445 3 days ago
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

Let's see think DeepRoot has an advantage of having Texas location. Lower Taxes and lower cost.
Swap-able playfields - would be totally rad. That would make production cost less and shipping savings. Especially if
the had the cabinet design to end all cabinets. Sturdy but lite and a very easy playfield swap
that someone could do on location with a thumb drive / sd card or wifi for code.
I would love to see a company push the playfield envelope a bit more.
Give users a chance to home grow more elaborate toys with a SDK kit.

Heighway already tried this, and it went over with a resounding "thud". p3 Multimorphic isn't exactly setting the world on fire their swappable playfields either.

#7446 3 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Heighway already tried this, and it went over with a resounding "thud". p3 Multimorphic isn't exactly setting the world on fire their swappable playfields either.

It seems as though most won't give it a chance without having a theme to dumb themselves down and play a boring game.

#7447 3 days ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Heighway already tried this, and it went over with a resounding "thud". p3 Multimorphic isn't exactly setting the world on fire their swappable playfields either.

Heighway sadly was just a poorly run company. As for P3 thats a complete left field Almost pinball concept to most. More like a 1/4 pinball game which makes no sense to me. In a different time with todays PC tech I think a Pinball2000 concept would actually do well if properly implemented with Several easy to swap game titles. This hobby for many boils down to real-estate and cost to refresh your collection. A happy medium option could actually work these days.

-1
#7448 3 days ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Heighway sadly was just a poorly run company. As for P3 thats a complete left field Almost pinball concept to most. More like a 1/4 pinball game which makes no sense to me. In a different time with todays PC tech I think a Pinball2000 concept would actually do well if properly implemented with Several easy to swap game titles. This hobby for many boils down to real-estate and cost to refresh your collection. A happy medium option could actually work these days.

It doesnt work financially...it’s already been spelled out numerous times.

How much cheaper can you really sell the kit... when the kit really represents 99% of the development and 75% of the costs? Why would customers want to buy a kit for say.. 15% less than a full game? You just can’t get the price low enough to make it attractive verse all the tradeoffs you have.

P3 tries to address this by making the kit “smaller” in that its just the upper portion and software... trying to drive their bom per unit down. But it exaggerated the tradeoff... in that games are even more similar.. etc.

#7449 2 days ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

You need to ask the person who told you that where they got their info from, it is not true.
I think DR have missed the boat. Some of the comments earlier in this thread make me wonder how many people are willing to buy their games if they ever do come out.
Hopefully they produce some games for people to play at TPF.

Literally every person I've ever heard in the hobby and industry that's talked about the trim-level breakdown, has said that the Pros are the most popular Stern model. There are of course regional exceptions. In places like Australia, where they have increased costs due to importation expenses, the Premiums and LEs tend to be more favored than in the US.

Quoted from cjchand:

My take: They weren't demonstrating anything. It was location testing. They had software devs with laptops connected to the pins and were keen to solicit feedback from those who played the games.

Then they shouldn't have let people film the game. Letting people film, but not having a proper camera-setup, was literally the worst of both worlds. It was neither a professional reveal or first look, nor was it a for-the-company-only quality control / stress test.

Quoted from Brijam:

Yeah, but unfortunately it takes more than imagination.
Consider also that Stern's pricing might not be the only reason they sell more than other pinball manufacturers. Well established sales/marketing/distribution, accumulated knowledge, perceived stability, good (or conservative) design, top quality licenses, momentum... these all play a part.
I look forward to seeing the hundreds of innovations that have been touted by deeproot. Perhaps they will succeed where so many others have failed.

Oh for sure, Stern's long-established business relationships and strong distribution network is a big part of why they sell in the volumes that they do, but it doesn't explain why the Pro is more popular model. Only cost explains that. Be it initial cost or long-term cost of ownership.

#7450 2 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It doesnt work financially...it’s already been spelled out numerous times.
How much cheaper can you really sell the kit... when the kit really represents 99% of the development and 75% of the costs? Why would customers want to buy a kit for say.. 15% less than a full game? You just can’t get the price low enough to make it attractive verse all the tradeoffs you have.
P3 tries to address this by making the kit “smaller” in that its just the upper portion and software... trying to drive their bom per unit down. But it exaggerated the tradeoff... in that games are even more similar.. etc.

While I understand your points I don't fully agree on your math? A simple populated playfield would be no where Near half or less the cost of a complete game. Boards, computers, audio systems, packaging, cabinets, factory assets, the list goes on. Agree it would have to be done right but I for one would love to see this attempted correctly. Similar to the 1k Pin2000 playfields even if they were 2500 it would beat the current escalation of 10k new games for me. Would be fun to see. Playfield, translite, and USB stick UPS I'm in.

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