(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Quoted from Extraballz:Most of the owners are rich A holes.
Most of the players are rich A holes too.
Düsseldorf
Quoted from John_I:Most of the players are rich A holes too.
Sadly I'm only the latter. 
Boulder, CO
Kaneda asked, "How are the investors feeling right now? Are they on board for the long run?"
RM replied: "There are no investors in pinball. It's company money, it's my money.
There's additional verbiage in that one minute segment by each, but that's the meat of it. Personally, I found it ambiguous and now understand the confusion.
Go to the 53 minute mark and listen for yourself.
Whatever is going on, this deeproot investment has to pay off for its investors. That only happens with revenue, and lots of it.
Quoted from Mr68:Kaneda asked, "How are the investors feeling right now? Are they on board for the long run?"
RM replied: "There are no investors in pinball. It's company money, it's my money.
There's additional verbiage in that one minute segment by each, but that's the meat of it. Personally, I found it ambiguous and now understand the confusion.
Go to the 53 minute mark and listen for yourself.
https://soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/re-airing-deeproots-robert-mueller?fbclid=IwAR3S3mY-2CkEmnJJhf7_KMMymNyxMnX8I276-FZcGcScWWEHWJipI-tHmw4
I wonder if this means that RM paid for JPOP’s bankruptcy out of his own pocket? 
Quoted from frolic:Whatever is going on, this deeproot investment has to pay off for its investors. That only happens with revenue, and lots of it.
Not all investments pay off, so no it really does not have to pay off at all. It may well cost some investors their wager. Where the investment comes from doesn't matter to any of us really at all, unless any of us are rich A hole investors?
I mean, Who Cares if the detached "investors" lose or profit, really. They know they are in a risk/investment game.
I certainly don't care where Roberts money is coming from, don't know why any other pinhead should care either. If DR make some good games so be it, Bonus!. If the investors lose a pile of coin... well s#it happens!. I don't care one bit about that.
Is anyone paying deposits? ... no? .... well if they were then maybe where the money is coming from would be somehow relevant to be raising every 5 minutes in this pinside topic. Give the investment speculation rubbish a rest how about... 
Quoted from razorsedge:Is anyone paying deposits? ... no? .... well if they were then maybe where the money is coming from would be somehow relevant to be raising every 5 minutes in this pinside topic. Give the investment speculation rubbish a rest how about...
If you don't understand a business' function, motivation, or constraints... you are bound to be surprised by their actions.
Pinside loves to act like total whores that don't care about anything as long as they get their toy/mod/whatever... and ironically go ape when things go off the rails and not how they think it should have been. What an interesting reality some people chose to live in...
Quoted from razorsedge:Not all investments pay off, so no it really does not have to pay off at all. It may well cost some investors their wager. Where the investment comes from doesn't matter to any of us really at all, unless any of us are rich A hole investors?
I mean, Who Cares if the detached "investors" lose or profit, really. They know they are in a risk/investment game.
I certainly don't care where Roberts money is coming from, don't know why any other pinhead should care either. If DR make some good games so be it, Bonus!. If the investors lose a pile of coin... well s#it happens!. I don't care one bit about that.
Is anyone paying deposits? ... no? .... well if they were then maybe where the money is coming from would be somehow relevant to be raising every 5 minutes in this pinside topic. Give the investment speculation rubbish a rest how about...
Let's say they announce/show a game you really want, Golden Girls. It's everything you dreamed of. You buy it and put it in your basement. Two weeks later the light board under Blanche flakes out. You contact deep root but they won't answer the phone. Turns out they are running a skeleton crew because the investors have triggered immediate payments and deep root doesn't have funding to continue operating. They then spend the next 12 months looking for new investors while beginning bankruptcy proceedings. Wouldn't it be nice to have had more information before you made the purchase in the first place?
Quoted from flynnibus:If you don't understand a business' function, motivation, or constraints... you are bound to be surprised by their actions.
Pinside loves to act like total whores that don't care about anything as long as they get their toy/mod/whatever... and ironically go ape when things go off the rails and not how they think it should have been. What an interesting reality some people chose to live in...
Amen
These same people whine and bitch every time prices are raised a nickel without a clue as to why or a thought about the business aspects
The non stop 24/7 rage against Stern yet still they have grown 20% each of the last two yrs
Robert made it very clear, “value” to DR does not mean undercutting Stern pro pricing yet most people expect that
He said they want to give us more value for the $9k we are spending
Raza thus far? I don’t see it. Maybe it’s coming on other titles
To his credit, DR attempted to make us Jpop people whole. Why, he believes in Jpop long term, or did.
Not that it matters to me but do you seriously believe that money came out of his pocket? 
Or the huge monthly cash burn?
Ask my friend Bill Brandes how fast you cut the cord with your own $$$ when it goes against you
Quoted from Rondogg:Let's say they announce/show a game you really want, Golden Girls. It's everything you dreamed of. You buy it and put it in your basement. Two weeks later the light board under Blanche flakes out. You contact deep root but they won't answer the phone. Turns out they are running a skeleton crew because the investors have triggered immediate payments and deep root doesn't have funding to continue operating. They then spend the next 12 months looking for new investors while beginning bankruptcy proceedings. Wouldn't it be nice to have had more information before you made the purchase in the first place?
Wich company sells you stuff accompanied with a financial report?
Quoted from razorsedge:I mean, Who Cares if the detached "investors" lose or profit, really. They know they are in a risk/investment game.
I certainly don't care where Roberts money is coming from, don't know why any other pinhead should care either. If DR make some good games so be it, Bonus!. If the investors lose a pile of coin... well s#it happens!. I don't care one bit about that.
Is anyone paying deposits? ... no? .... well if they were then maybe where the money is coming from would be somehow relevant to be raising every 5 minutes in this pinside topic. Give the investment speculation rubbish a rest how about...
It's a great pity the conversation isn't going along as you would like. But this is what Pinside does and there are many other people here besides you. Most people understand this and they politely move along to other comments or threads.
Quoted from iceman44:Raza thus far? I don’t see it.
It‘s hard to get the overview compared to Stern over those totally mech & molded toy packed playfields of Stranger Things or Star Wars Pro. 
Deadpool Wiggle toy, I poop my pants in delight. 
Raza isn‘t the „Wow“ machine we hoped for, but it‘s full of little mechs. Each one would make a Stern Pro.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:It‘s hard to get the overview compared to Stern over those totally mech & molded toy packed playfields of Stranger Things or Star Wars Pro.
Deadpool Wiggle toy, I poop my pants in delight.
Raza isn‘t the „Wow“ machine we hoped for, but it‘s full of little mechs. Each one would make a Stern Pro.
And yet no one is likely gonna buy it? 300-500 is my guess, if that.
I'm not into a ramp shot that is designed to be made half the time, if that. Come on.
The Raza and MG allure went away long ago. They were "limited" in theory and non-existent in reality. A mass produced game of those titles? I don't think so.
As a business person I'm interested in the business of pinball, all the facets of it. Some people don't give a shit, until we have something else to talk about around TPF time its better than playing tiddly winks.
Quoted from iceman44:And yet no one is likely gonna buy it? 300-500 is my guess, if that.
That has nothing to do with your statement I refer to.
You‘re mental leaping all over the place.
Value is allready there. Not the giant mech we assumed, but a whole lot of small stuff all over the place. If you can‘t see that, you‘re blind.
Will it sell?
Well, that‘s a totally different story.
Stranger Things looks... bare.
But it is no doubt fun to shoot.
Raza has to keep up in that regard from what we‘ve seen, no doubt.
Another possibility is that you could own 100% of a company, acquire some assets like Jpop IP, or what you thought was an asset at the time, talent etc. and then issue a bunch of junk bond convertible debt, paying a huge interest rate on that debt.
You own 100% of something that is leveraged to the hilt, with no personal liability, and a company with a valuation of what?
Quoted from DS_Nadine:That has nothing to do with your statement I refer to.
You‘re mental leaping all over the place.
Value is allready there. Not the giant mech we assumed, but a whole lot of small stuff all over the place. If you can‘t see that, you‘re blind.
Will it sell?
Well, that‘s a totally different story.
Stranger Things looks... bare.
But it is no doubt fun to shoot.
Raza has to keep up in that regard from what we‘ve seen, no doubt.
Will it sell is ALL THAT MATTERS! What i see is a cobbled together mess of small stuff all over the place. If they think otherwise they are lying to themselves. Maybe a whole lot changes before TPF.
"Fun to shoot", its not a no doubt for me. Ramp shot blows.
Quoted from iceman44:Will it sell is ALL THAT MATTERS!
Then why do you bother us with business analytics, fonds, shareholders and investor theories?
Just shut up (no offense), get drunk or play pinball and we wait and see what happens in march.
Or do a podcast. „The pinball investors“, sponsored by the tinfoil hat company and the pinball bros.
Sorry man. XD
So, I summarize the whole Thread evolvement in three short sentences for you.
We‘re old.
We know what we have in Stern.
We‘re automatically afraid or at least out of our comfort zone with anything new, therefore very suspicious.
Still just alot of people talking about completely irrelivant speculative nonsense which really seems to only interest them. Why not start a shares/investment/stockbroking thread??. Seriously!
Some seem to misunderstand that I care either way..... I'm just tired of reading irrelivant "investor" bull crap on here, and particularly when none of these "ex-sperts" are RM. Making the theories flying around simply that, irrelevant. Non pinball related hypothetical "theories".
Bad sketchy Deeproot!! They Must be swindling Somebody because they're new in pinball!! .... Why? ... Oh just cos that's what pinball has delivered in recent years!!
Some people will always just be negatively focused, I guess. Trolling, talking rubbish just for tge fun of it.
Who Cares where RM's company funds come from!? ... Really. Nobody, except about maybe 5 broken record posters in here care. Lol
It's none of your business, unless you're an investor?? ... if you have invested in DRP? , please, Post!
Pins in March, for anyone whom has been living under a rock. Unless they fail. Then no pins?
Quoted from zr11990:All this time and all this talk I have yet to see a pic of a pin. When and what are thes people supposed to be producing
deeproot_Pinball_Raza_Full_PF_11.2019 (resized).pngQuoted from DS_Nadine:That has nothing to do with your statement I refer to.
You‘re mental leaping all over the place.
Value is allready there. Not the giant mech we assumed, but a whole lot of small stuff all over the place. If you can‘t see that, you‘re blind.
Will it sell?
Well, that‘s a totally different story.
Stranger Things looks... bare.
But it is no doubt fun to shoot.
Raza has to keep up in that regard from what we‘ve seen, no doubt.
STgs looks like being a flop now anyway... any serious potential for hype the game might have had was sucked straight out of it when Spookys RaM popped up by surprise. Haven't heard too many around with nice things to say about it....
Added over 4 years ago:**Haven't heard too many around with ONLY nice things to say about it....
I got dyslexic. Nice things have been said, to be fair, but not only nice things.
Quoted from razorsedge:STgs looks like being a flop now anyway... any serious potential for life the game might have had was sucked straight out of it when RM popped up by surprise. Haven't heard too many around with nice things to say about it....
RM? Robert Müller Popped up in Stranger Things?!? (Srsly, I don‘t get it.)
Stranger Thinks looks fun to shoot, but it (at least the Pro, the others have my benefit of the doubt) lacks a whole lot. I don‘t have to name it the thread is exploding of it.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:RM? Robert Müller Popped up in Stranger Things?!? (Srsly, I don‘t get it.)
Stranger Thinks looks fun to shoot, but it (at least the Pro, the others have my benefit of the doubt) lacks a whole lot. I don‘t have to name it the thread is exploding of it.
Pmsl... RM abbreviation Confusion!! 
I'll fix it!
Quoted from wrb1977:Nice to see this thread hopefully get back on track...the pics of RAZA reminded me of why I’m following this thread in the first place. Looks amazing and I am eagerly awaiting deeproot’s launch in 78 days!!!
Agreed. Don’t give a yank about their financial position but I Am going to be a buyer of that game. Finally something a bit different and a little throw back to fun times. Like what I see.
It's certainly interesting.
With RAZA, for me at least, alot hinges on what the other 10% turns out to be... but it is the potential for any other titles that is even more interesting. 
Everybody has different priorities/prerequisites when evaluating, selecting and buying a pin. Some people think the cabinet art is super important, others place high value on ease of repair, others still will insist on buying from a company which is financially sound and will be around in 5-10 years time. All are valid.
Curious if DR has started to build out any of their manufacturing space yet? They currently have a job posted for an Engineering Project Manager.
Quoted from zr11990:All this time and all this talk I have yet to see a pic of a pin. When and what are thes people supposed to be producing
Two examples were at the Houston show last November for people to play.
Quoted from jawjaw:Two examples were at the Houston show last November for people to play.
Prototypes.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:RM? Robert Müller Popped up in Stranger Things?!? (Srsly, I don‘t get it.)
Stranger Thinks looks fun to shoot, but it (at least the Pro, the others have my benefit of the doubt) lacks a whole lot. I don‘t have to name it the thread is exploding of it.
This isn’t the STH thread. So shut up
Quoted from iceman44:This isn’t the STH thread. So shut up
How‘s Alien coming along?
Quoted from Yelobird:Agreed. Don’t give a yank about their financial position but I Am going to be a buyer of that game. Finally something a bit different and a little throw back to fun times. Like what I see.
You don’t give a yank as you have said 10 times. I do. And that’s what we got to talk about now.
And I’m not gonna be a buyer of that game based on what I see.
See how that works?
Quoted from DS_Nadine:How‘s Alien coming along?
Not the a Alien thread either. Just fine
Drive over and see for yourself
Btw, this thread is a Deeproot pinball thread. Not just Raza
Quoted from iceman44:Not the a Alien thread either. Just fine
Not the financial speculation thread as well good sir. 
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Not the financial speculation thread as well good sir.
It’s a “Deeproot pinball thread” sir 
Quoted from iceman44:See the address? That’s where pinball headquarters and manufacturing are
The prospectus? What else do you think these people are throwing money at?
It would make sense if there was more. I’m thinking the Utah group has something to do with both pinball and non pinball
Sure, the address matches the address on their website for their other funds. And the article from biz journal in 2016 on the last page I quoted stated they were out of San Antonio and so far had not attracted any investors for their pinball funds or any others except a new insurance based fund.
Click on contact and there is no mention of Utah.
Quoted from o-din:Sure, the address matches the address on their website for their other funds. And the article from biz journal in 2016 on the last page I quoted stated they were out of San Antonio and so far had not attracted any investors for their pinball funds or any others except a new insurance based fund.
Click on contact and there is no mention of Utah.
https://www.deeprootfunds.com
Utah is where the digital art group is. You'll probably have to dig through another half dozen corporate entities if you want to find their setup 
Quoted from iceman44:It’s a “Deeproot pinball thread” sir
It’s technically a “DeepPoop Thread”
Quoted from razorsedge:Still just alot of people talking about completely irrelivant speculative nonsense which really seems to only interest them. Why not start a shares/investment/stockbroking thread??. Seriously!
Some seem to misunderstand that I care either way..... I'm just tired of reading irrelivant "investor" bull crap on here, and particularly when none of these "ex-sperts" are RM. Making the theories flying around simply that, irrelevant. Non pinball related hypothetical "theories".
Bad sketchy Deeproot!! They Must be swindling Somebody because they're new in pinball!! .... Why? ... Oh just cos that's what pinball has delivered in recent years!!
Some people will always just be negatively focused, I guess. Trolling, talking rubbish just for tge fun of it.
Who Cares where RM's company funds come from!? ... Really. Nobody, except about maybe 5 broken record posters in here care. Lol
It's none of your business, unless you're an investor?? ... if you have invested in DRP? , please, Post!
Pins in March, for anyone whom has been living under a rock. Unless they fail. Then no pins?
No offense, but you are completely missing the point of why a lot of us are interested in Deep Root's finances. A lot of us care about their financial situation because we want to know that we'll be able to acquire replacement parts, and continue to receive support, from the manufacturer after the purchase of an expensive machine. As we all know, pinball machines contain components that wear out or break, and need to be replaced. Owners won't be able to get those replacement parts if the company that made them is out of business. Its a simple concept. A lack of replacement parts is why some people are scared to own TBL or Alien machines.
And we've seen A LOT of start-up pinball companies go under, so DR going out of business is a valid concern. The fact that DR will supposedly be using a lot of unique, exclusive components makes the concern even more valid.
Quoted from DakotaMike:And we've seen A LOT of start-up pinball companies go under,
This is it for me. We've seen this movie before too many times to pretend it can't happen again. A lot of us (myself included - I'm in the bankruptcy list of victims) deluded ourselves that real-world business didn't apply to pinball.
How quickly everyone forgets about the grand promises and hyperbole made by Heighway Pinball. I don't blame anyone for being skeptical of a company that has really shown very little so far after years of work.
Quoted from JodyG:How quickly everyone forgets about the grand promises and hyperbole made by Heighway Pinball.
And his Pinside stooges.
Quoted from razorsedge:I certainly don't care where Roberts money is coming from, don't know why any other pinhead should care either.
It matters if you're thinking about buying and maintaining their games. The stability of their funding plan will likely have an impact on whether or not you can still buy parts in three years.
Quoted from flynnibus:Utah is where the digital art group is. You'll probably have to dig through another half dozen corporate entities if you want to find their setup
Based on their website, doubt that is where they are selling their insurance based funds out of.
And of the original offering of $6 million equity at $25,000 a pop into their pinball funds also doubtful IMO that has now reached $30 million. More likely at least most of that $30 million is in their insurance based funds.
3lct7g (resized).jpgQuoted from o-din:Based on their website, doubt that is where they are selling their insurance based funds out of.
And of the original offering of $6 million equity at $25,000 a pop into their pinball funds also doubtful IMO that has now reached $30 million. More likely at least most of that $30 million is in their insurance based funds.[quoted image]
Lol
Nope
That’s history, the insurance fund, long ago
I like the intellectual curiosity though Odiner
He said at one point the cash burn was $750k a month on “pinball”. Now I doubt that, but do the math
It’s at least $250k I would guess. The pinball facility itself rent has gotta be 75-100k per month ish?
Like I said, this is most likely a debt offering under Reg D to fund operations
Edit: #9 on sec doc. It an “equity” offering.
Well, if it is as he supposedly said that it is his own money, then that makes him the eccentric millionaire or billionaire with a super expensive hobby, the likes of which pinside perhaps has not seen before. I do still seriously doubt many if any invested in the pinball division.
But throw in "it's company money", then that could mean quite a few things.
I don't really care because it is not my money, but am interested to see how this all plays out once the dust settles.
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