Quoted from RCA1:So this is an announcement of an announcement coming in three months.
Maybe coming in three months. Plenty of other good choices around. That is my opinion.
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013-
Celts
Haggis, 2021
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Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Pittsburgh, PA
Quoted from hank527:How can they release RAZA when they do not own the IP?
Hmm...what???
Quoted from hank527:How can they release RAZA when they do not own the IP?
Very interesting question/observation!
Quoted from hank527:How can they release RAZA when they do not own the IP?
Who owns it? There certainly could be a licensing deal that would cover it. Game mechs would presumably be redesigned, lest they run afoul of patents (assuming said patents were even applied for)
Quoted from Concretehardt:Very interesting question/observation!
Yes, from my understanding the creditors of Zidware own it. Maybe Cointaker has the largest share. I do not know. Though I do not think Deeproot owns the IP. I do not see how they can own it.
Düsseldorf
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Christmas!
What a great unlicensed theme!
Quoted from Fulltilt:What a great unlicensed theme!
If a game called "Christmas" is ever released my prediction is that it will be released by American Pinball on December 26, any year.
Quoted from hank527:Yes, from my understanding the creditors of Zidware own it. Maybe Cointaker has the largest share. I do not know. Though I do not think Deeproot owns the IP. I do not see how they can own it.
They have the rights to use it based on the deal zidware made with deeproot ages ago.
Zidware only just recently filed for chapter 7 (nov 21)... it would be a tall order for them to go all the way back to the deeproot deal and unravel it.
Cointaker is not the largest debior according to the chapter7 filing... it's American Pinball. Their filing lists IP assets, but the first and only secured debtor is... wait for it... Deeproot.
Zidware will liquidate... and deeproot will collect their IP pieces while everyone else fights for the scraps left as they sell off JPOP's garage contents.
Look at the filing and see who is paying for Zidware's chapter 7... wait for it... it's deeproot (paying the attorney).
Full chapter 7 filing
zidware chp7.pdf
Eta: accidentally swapped debtor and creditor in this post.
The list of creditors is sobering.
And interesting that the effort to save magic girl (i guess) with will brandes is listed as “unknown” amount
Quoted from flynnibus:They have the rights to use it based on the deal zidware made with deeproot ages ago.
Zidware only just recently filed for chapter 7 (nov 21)... it would be a tall order for them to go all the way back to the deeproot deal and unravel it.
Cointaker is not the largest debior according to the chapter7 filing... it's American Pinball. Their filing lists IP assets, but the first and only secured debtor is... wait for it... Deeproot.
Zidware will liquidate... and deeproot will collect their IP pieces while everyone else fights for the scraps left as they sell off JPOP's garage contents.
Look at the filing and see who is paying for Zidware's chapter 7... wait for it... it's deeproot (paying the attorney).
Full chapter 7 filing
[quoted image]
We shall see 
I don’t care if DR is likable
I don’t care if DR bragged
I don’t care that DR is behind where they thought they would be
I only care that there is a new pin company that could possibly make quality machines with features and mechs like the 90s B/W. I am still excited with what DR could possibly do. I mean do we ever think a company like Stern is going to make machines like the 90s B/W? Maybe companies like Spooky or CGC will keep making better and better quality pins. Imagine a pin company starts making pins and people start comparing these new games with the greats of old. That company would just take off in the pin world. The appetite is certainly there for pins with the 90s features and quality. Question is will any company figure this out and actually pull it off. I for one hope so..........good luck Deeproot!
Stern would certainly have to be more uncomfortable than they have been in more than a decade, at this point. They've become used to the "known", with little competition to drive Value.
Now 2020 has a massive potential for the Unknown... from multiple directions. It all adds up, lots of good boutique companies, combined with growing larger manufacturers. Along with this, unveiling the unknowns of Deeproot.
Stern will be forced to review the way they operate, if sales volumes are impacted at a noticable level. Quality seems to be their main issue. Especially if the alternatives (DR included) demonstrate the vastly superior standard for quality.
I'm rooting for DR. Boutique scene has some stuff and things I'm excited for too! . 2020 is shaping up to be a pearler for pinball!
Quoted from Extraballz:I don’t care if DR is likable
I don’t care if DR bragged
I don’t care that DR is behind where they thought they would be
I only care that there is a new pin company that could possibly make quality machines with features and mechs like the 90s B/W. I am still excited with what DR could possibly do. I mean do we ever think a company like Stern is going to make machines like the 90s B/W? Maybe companies like Spooky or CGC will keep making better and better quality pins. Imagine a pin company starts making pins and people start comparing these new games with the greats of old. That company would just take off in the pin world. The appetite is certainly there for pins with the 90s features and quality. Question is will any company figure this out and actually pull it off. I for one hope so..........good luck Deeproot!
We all want to see prices come down and better quality for those very high prices, but come on, 90s B/W quality is a huge fallacy and not really true. I was just speaking with a guy that has been an operator for over 45 years in the pinball business. He refurbs pinball machines as well.
He states that there never was any high quality coming from 90s B/W and those machines broke down all the time. Had so many issues, but because there wasn’t any internet or home owners, just locations running them, issues were fixed on location without any fanfare, unlike today.
He pointed to his locations huge selection of 90s B/W machines and told me of all the many issues each one had (I was intrigued, because of always hearing what quality came from 90s B/W). (Cover your eyes Stern haters, cause your not going to like what he said next). He said pointing to all his Stern machines, they just work and he hardly has to touch them, other than routine maintenance, that every pinball machine needs from time to time.
That said, Stern needs to continue to be vigilant on better Playfield quality and bring prices down. Sad day: Stern releases Stranger Things and ups prices again. When Stern are you going to stop this price raising madness? Hopefully DR can give some kind of competition with lower pricing and even higher quality. Just wonder if DR will eventually file for chapter 7 as well? The way they are spending money, with no real product ever being sold and delivered. Kind of sounds like Zidware 2.0, doesn’t it???
Quoted from flynnibus:Look at the filing and see who is paying for Zidware's chapter 7... wait for it... it's deeproot (paying the attorney).
Nice analysis. Answers some questions.
A scroll through the list of creditors (dozens and dozens of them) really paints a picture of the harm jpop delivered to the pinball community.
Quoted from flynnibus:Look at the filing and see who is paying for Zidware's chapter 7... wait for it... it's deeproot (paying the attorney).
Also note that it looks like at least one law firm didn't get paid for previous work.
Venis and Copp, LLP shows up as a creditor for $6,500.00.
Sad to see lots of good folks on that list.
Quoted from razorsedge:Stern would certainly have to be more uncomfortable than they have been in more than a decade,
I doubt it.
Stern will keep doing what Stern does. Building pinball machines.
LTG : )
Quoted from LTG:Stern will keep doing what Stern does. Building pinball machines.
LTG : )
I do not disagree. I just meant, it seems like the pressure is greater than it has been in a long time. Some things are changing and evolving. Change often drives other changes, it will be interesting to see how things pan out (what actually does change) over the next couple of years. In pinball generally.
I'm kind of scratching my head over this "release party". I thought there was supposed to be a 3 or 5 machine reveal upon the go live date? Now all there is .... is RAZA? I sincerely hope Jpop has been demoted/redirected to do artwork only. All of his "glory days" games included annoying shooter lanes and a toy that annoys me because it interrupted flow in a way that makes me feel like why even add it in the first place?!
WCS is probably the least annoying toy wise, still has a stupid shooter lane.
Quoted from CLEllison:I'm kind of scratching my head over this "release party". I thought there was supposed to be a 3 or 5 machine reveal upon the go live date? Now all there is .... is RAZA? I sincerely hope Jpop has been demoted/redirected to do artwork only. All of his "glory days" games included annoying shooter lanes and a toy that annoys me because it interrupted flow in a way that makes me feel like why even add it in the first place?!
WCS is probably the least annoying toy wise, still has a stupid shooter lane.
I think it is mainly that the only Confirmed game is RAZA. After the last TPF let down it seems DR is keeping their "promises" to a minimum, at least wanting to "under promise and over deliver" ? . Going by past statements and plans they seem to intend on having 3-5 games to release, but may well want to keep as much as possible held back right now for a maximum "wow surprise" at TPF. If they only have RAZA to flog at TPF I would have to class that as a fail. One would like to assume there will be at least 2 production titles there ready to sell, for it all to possibly be a success (over deliver), and that the second title would have a popular license, at least.
I'd guess 3 titles. RAZA, Popular licence, One of Dennis' games.
Two more at least by end of 2020, Magic Girl and Alice in Wonderland.
I think that is the minimum that should be expected given the hype and loose lips from RM. He rekoned alot more than that (like double) in in one year at some stages, so 5 in 2020 still falls way short... but if they get that many out and they are all "good", I will be impressed.
I still rekon RM has been in secret talks with PB, and DR are lined up to drop "Pinball Brothers Alien" at TPF as well. 
Quoted from frolic:Nice analysis. Answers some questions.
A scroll through the list of creditors (dozens and dozens of them) really paints a picture of the harm jpop delivered to the pinball community.
I do not think it sums up correctly. Deeproot was late to the game. Other creditors were owed money way before Deeproot. I really di not believe Deeproot owns the rights to those games. We all have agreements signed by Jpoop before deeproot came into being.
Quoted from razorsedge:I do not disagree. I just meant, it seems like the pressure is greater than it has been in a long time. Some things are changing and evolving. Change often drives other changes, it will be interesting to see how things pan out (what actually does change) over the next couple of years. In pinball generally.
I’m really not sure what lesson you desperately want to think Stern is going to learn by watching deep root.
They already figured out that hiring Jpop to run your design department is a bad idea. What other lessons are there to be learned?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I’m really not sure what lesson you desperately want to think Stern is going to learn by watching deep root.
They already figured out that hiring Jpop to run your design department is a bad idea. What other lessons are there to be learned?
Don’t take on huge amounts of debt from a company whose ideas can’t be delivered upon?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I’m really not sure what lesson you desperately want to think Stern is going to learn by watching deep root.
They already figured out that hiring Jpop to run your design department is a bad idea. What other lessons are there to be learned?
To start caring about quality, as in materials. Steel and wood... right now they have a pile of excuses. 
Of course for that to happen DR needs to do better than their quality level. Using quality material is not hard. Well, the wood is, hard(er) lol.
Quoted from CLEllison:I'm kind of scratching my head over this "release party".
It looks to be a release party for the Deeproot platform, not their pins. If you look at the agenda, it’s all about engineering and design (with a sprinkle of sales and distribution for good measure). Guessing that’s why it’s a press/distro/vendor centric event.
TPF will be the big splash, release-wise, and will be consumer focused - or at least that’s my take.
Quoted from cjchand:It looks to be a release party for the Deeproot platform, not their pins. If you look at the agenda, it’s all about engineering and design (with a sprinkle of sales and distribution for good measure). Guessing that’s why it’s a press/distro/vendor centric event.
TPF will be the big splash, release-wise, and will be consumer focused - or at least that’s my take.
The Deeproot platform.... is "their pins". Lol
I thought the DR release, or "5 days of Deeproot", was lined up with the TPF.... ??
Either way the 5 days of Deeproot is the unveiling of Deeproot Pinball, which is .... pinball games?. Lol
Every 5 minutes on the itinerary they appear to be "playing games"... I sure hope they mean pinball games... I guess they could be going to play pickup sticks??
Quoted from hank527:I do not think it sums up correctly. Deeproot was late to the game. Other creditors were owed money way before Deeproot. I really di not believe Deeproot owns the rights to those games. We all have agreements signed by Jpoop before deeproot came into being.
Being first has nothing to do with it. Do some reading on secured vs non-secured. Not everyone is equal in claims against a company. You are passing judgment without even understanding anything about the subject.... just trying to rule with a customer's view
Quoted from flynnibus:You are passing judgment without even understanding anything about the subject....
As are you, there is more to this story that will eventually come out and that is all I can say at this time.
Quoted from Concretehardt:As are you, there is more to this story that will eventually come out and that is all I can say at this time.
There is a difference between not having all the info... and just flat out wrong.
I guess you are referring to the parties and lawsuits against zidware and those people or those owed challenging the statements of assets and liabilities? Either way... it doesnt work by simply “who was in line first” as was claimed by the other poster. Deeproot setup their licensing arrangement knowing they were working with what would be a dead company so its pretty lopsided. I would assume the challenges would be that the company was already insolvent and work to unwind the deal... or that it was some fraudulent transfer.
If people want to fight it... i’ll be happy to follow along and hopefully derail this whole jpop redemption mission by deeproot.
I guess the people who didnt take deeproot’s settlement are still hungry...
When I look at the RAZA playfield , compared to a bare looking Strager Things (Pro), that is exactly why I'm hopefull for another competitor being around. Especially if they'll actually manage to be competitive pricewise.
When Stern had that Fighter Jet decoration made out of flat plastics in "24" people said they're done for... now they don't even have those.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:When I look at the RAZA playfield , compared to a bare looking Strager Things (Pro), that is exactly why I'm hopefull for another competitor being around. Especially if they'll actually manage to be competitive pricewise.
When Stern had that Fighter Jet decoration made out of flat plastics in "24" people said they're done for... now they don't even have those.
Stranger Things will blow RAZA away .
Quoted from DS_Nadine:When I look at the RAZA playfield , compared to a bare looking Strager Things (Pro), that is exactly why I'm hopefull for another competitor being around. Especially if they'll actually manage to be competitive pricewise.
I thought the idea of Deeproot selling for Pro prices (or below) has been pretty clearly put to rest by Robert. No point comparing Stern Pros to non-existent models.
I am curious where they end up.
RAZA is not really for me, but I have high hopes for an Alice in Wonderland pin. A WoZ on steroids would make it a top 10 pin.
Quoted from Patrunkenphat7:A WoZ on steroids would make it a top 10 pin.
So WOZ...one of the most overstuffed pins in the history of pinball machines...isn't "roided out" enough for you?
This is why Deep Root has painted themselves into a corner. The people most excited, and who fell the hardest for their 3 years of nonstop "we'll blow your mind!!!!" sales pitch; these folks can never be satisfied.
I personally would be frightened of what a "WOZ on steroids" would be. Four upper playfields? 6 flippers? 5 magnets? Three 27 inch monitors and an 8 speaker surround system?
The electric bill alone would be enough to put many of us on to government assistance.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:So WOZ...one of the most overstuffed pins in the history of pinball machines...isn't "roided out" enough for you?
This is why Deep Root has painted themselves into a corner. The people most excited, and who fell the hardest for their 3 years of nonstop "we'll blow your mind!!!!" sales pitch; these folks can never be satisfied.
I personally would be frightened of what a "WOZ on steroids" would be. Four upper playfields? 6 flippers? 5 magnets?
The electric bill alone would be enough to put many of us on to government assistance.
An electric bill that puts us on government assistance is a pinball success in my book! 
Quoted from CrazyLevi:So WOZ...one of the most overstuffed pins in the history of pinball machines...isn't "roided out" enough for you?
This is why Deep Root has painted themselves into a corner. The people most excited, and who fell the hardest for their 3 years of nonstop "we'll blow your mind!!!!" sales pitch; these folks can never be satisfied.
I personally would be frightened of what a "WOZ on steroids" would be. Four upper playfields? 6 flippers? 5 magnets? Three 27 inch monitors and an 8 speaker surround system?
The electric bill alone would be enough to put many of us on to government assistance.
Your comment assumes the company is intending to actually make pinball machines or money in the first place.
Quoted from frankmac:Stranger Things will blow RAZA away .
Maybe you’re right and Stern blows.
Doesn‘t have anything to do with what I wrote tough.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Your comment assumes the company is intending to actually make pinball machines or money in the first place.
One has to wonder. Doesn't seem like they could turn a profit for many years the way they are running now.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:One has to wonder. Doesn't seem like they could turn a profit for many years the way they are running now.
Octo-accounting will save it
I wonder what the response would have been had deeproot revealed a "mixed reality" system like the Stranger Things projector.
Quoted from frolic:I wonder what the response would have been had deeproot revealed a "mixed reality" system like the Stranger Things projector.
Mixed.
LTG : )
Quoted from Zablon:Amazon still doesn't make a profit...so...I mean...
You might want to check your math. Amazon had its first profitable quarter in 2001.
Gross profit in Q3 2019 was $28.679B
Quoted from bwill:You might want to check your math. Amazon had its first profitable quarter in 2001.
Gross profit in Q3 2019 was $28.679B
You are correct, I was being tongue in cheek regarding how much they pay in taxes and fancy accounting that goes along with it.
Quoted from Zablon:Amazon still doesn't make a profit...so...I mean...
OOOOH yes they do
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