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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 hours ago by sgtski1978
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#6801 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Quoted from CLEllison:

For those that actually played the pin, why not "tactfully" tell the attendants the flippers felt under powered and ask if they would turn the juice up a tad?
Why did no one "tactfully" ask to see the under the playfield and inside the back box?
Why did no one "tactfully" ask to see the "new tech" that RM has been boasting about?
I'm a firm believer you can talk about anything. It's all about the approach.
I've watched some of the videos and the attendants didn't "feel" like pinheads. They felt more like temp workers asked to baby sit a machine? They would've been prime candidates to catfish info from. Hell, even prototype cars at a car show will allow a look under the hood right? Worst case scenario you wouldve been told no. RM seems like a very proud man, I suspect he will go out of his way on the final product to give pinside the middle finger. "Let those who doubted us rule this day" ~Thorin Oakenshield

Some posts here from people whom took this kind of approach, fishing for info... it seemed in some cases the DR guys may have revealed more than they were supposed to...

Most innovations or tech not present (or visible) in the prototypes, anyway. So they said?

Some posts about discussions with the "babysitters" suggest perhaps a degree of non-disclosure agreement?

I agree, I think he just wants to do it. What he said. Period.

If he succeeds, even a bit... well ...

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#6802 4 years ago
 
JJZ

toyotaboy

RandOM Pinball

US Allyn, WA

12y 184K 11,937 3 14

Quoted from screaminr:

Robert clearly said the Flipper power wasn't turn down . Having an opinion is one thing but stating that opinion as FACT is another

Even if it wasn't purposely turned down, typically at shows the AC power is weaker because there are SO many machines plugged into a hotel that isn't prepared for it.. so if the AC is low, the DC that gets inverted is also low.

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#6803 4 years ago
 
MBW

mbwalker

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 135K 5,325 9

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Even if it wasn't purposely turned down, typically at shows the AC power is weaker because there are SO many machines plugged into a hotel that isn't prepared for it.. so if the AC is low, the DC that gets inverted is also low.

That depends on what's powering the flippers. If it's from a switching supply, it could have very well still been in the proper input range to produce the proper DC output. Just grabbing the data sheet for my Meanwell 48V, 750W switcher - it will regulate down to 90V (albeit another graph shows power is down 10% at 90V).

But if it's running off a non-regulated supply, yes - it will follow the AC as you mentioned.

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#6804 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,106 2

Quoted from razorsedge:

But I swear I rembember Steve Bowden saying different?
Maybe they're both wrong and they were just unmaintained.... gummy and sluggish... Lol

According to the interviews the machines were both "set up" differently, so the ramp shot in one game less obtainable is by test/ design not due to weak flippers. If I remember correctly Robert even said that the flipper power was at max but not too sure about that.

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#6805 4 years ago
 
LEV

CrazyLevi

Crazy Levi's Pinball

US New York, NY

10y 148K 33,559

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Deeproot will prevail

You seem pretty easily impressed by mouthy rich people who make empty promises.

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#6806 4 years ago
 
KIM

Mr68

Pinside+ Frequent

US Boulder, CO

12y 150K 8,647

Several years ago, a rookie manufacturing company called Jersey Jack came out with their first prototype, a machine called Wizard of Oz.
Pinside went hysterical about weak flippers and it was the end of the world.
.
Déjà fucking vu

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#6807 4 years ago
 
LTG

LTG

Pinside member

US Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,991 24 7

Quoted from Mr68:

Several years ago, a rookie manufacturing company called Jersey Jack came out with their first prototype, a machine called Wizard of Oz.
Pinside went hysterical about weak flippers and it was the end of the world.
.
.
Déjà fucking vu

I believe this phenomena started with WOZ. First prototypes at a show. You could only play two balls a game. Flippers were weak. People were told this. They would be adjustable. JJP just wanted to show what they were working on.

This set in motion every F'ing new game unveiled at any show. People feel obligated to say something. You ask them, "How did you like it?". Canned response is always "The flippers seemed weak". Whether they are or not.

LTG : )

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#6808 4 years ago
 
RUS

Russell

Pinside member

US Colorado Springs, CO

10y 111K 1,475 58

Maybe some people just like their flippers weak. To each his own?

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#6809 4 years ago
 
WLF

wlf_

Inactive member

US Chicago, IL

5y 36,800 290 2

Quoted from Russell:

Maybe some people just like their flippers weak. To each his own?

It is more nuanced than that, though.

Playing a game where the flippers have weakened too much below the level the playfield was designed for, and a game becomes unplayable, or shots unhittable, and that ain't fun.

That's different from say, a Pat Lawlor game, where he explicitly designs to make some shots harder by having "weaker" flippers. I'd actually prefer games be difficult with tight shots rather than designed so ramps are hard with factory flipper strength, but I at least understand this.

I can see people liking the latter, I suppose, but the former? Do you like playing say a MM where soggy flippers can't make ramps? That's weird if so

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#6810 4 years ago
 
NTR

TheFamilyArcade

Pinside+ Frequent

US New City, NY

11y 104K 9,961 5 37

Flippers are often weak at shows. Sometimes by design I’ve heard. But if so, why? Because jacked up flippers might break some plastics? Jesus, if anyone can afford to break a few plastics it’s the manufacturer of the fucking game.

Alice Coopers flippers were so weak at Allentown the first time I played the game that it was impossible to make one important shot in the entire game. It was boring as fuck and left me with no fun experience to remember. Why a manufacturer would purposely leave their prospective buyers with this experience is mind boggling.

Of course I’ve since played ACNC at a great location that keeps its games tuned up, and it plays great. I love the game. But for two years I had nothing positive to say about it because my first experience was so needlessly disappointing.

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#6811 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Seems plenty of pinsiders don't see the forrest, the trees are in the way... errrr, flippers are in the way ...

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#6812 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from razorsedge:

Seems plenty of pinsiders don't see the forrest, the trees are in the way... errrr, flippers are in the way ...

I just bought new coils from Terry at PBL for the weak ones on LOTR and was done with it. No more weak flippers.

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#6813 4 years ago
 
WGH

Patrunkenphat7

Pinside member

US Greenville, SC

5y 39,050 107 17

Have you all heard the recent interview where Deeproot dude says that there were NO flipper power issues at the reveal? That should end the discussion. He also said that they are still pondering on which ramp to go with but that in general they want it to be difficult to make it up the ramp.

The ramp is simply freaking hard to make on the prototype, and it has nothing to do with flipper strength.

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#6814 4 years ago
 
DJS

zaphX

Pinside+ Frequent

US Frisco, TX

6y 108K 6,270 3 13 2

Quoted from screaminr:

Robert clearly said the Flipper power wasn't turn down . Having an opinion is one thing but stating that opinion as FACT is another .

Yeah I really don't get that. The ramp was easily makeable though not every time, which was intentional. Flippers felt good.

Source: was there, actually played it for a few hours

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#6815 4 years ago
 
GHW

DerGoetz

Pinside member

US Chapel Hill, NC

8y 85,800 1,017 15

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You seem pretty easily impressed by mouthy rich people who make empty promises.

So, I rather listen to mouthy poor people?

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#6816 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from Mr68:

Several years ago, a rookie manufacturing company called Jersey Jack came out with their first prototype, a machine called Wizard of Oz.

I bought a first run and it played pretty damn well, as long as I could keep the lights on. (:

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#6817 4 years ago
 
MJB

wamoc

Pinside member

5y 34,400 115

Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Flippers are often weak at shows. Sometimes by design I’ve heard. But if so, why?

I think it is likely that it is because at the show the games will get a ton of use (more so than most on location games), which means they will heat up, and the flipper solenoids don't work as well when hot. Turning down the power to them means that the solenoids wont heat up as fast, so less likely to have downtime/problems from them overheating.

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#6818 4 years ago
 
RPA

RA77

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 105K 2,307 13

Yeah, I heard they were max Power.

Those Flipper Coils may NEED some Regulators !

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#6819 4 years ago
 
VIC

vicjw66

Pinside member

US San Pedro/port Of Los Angeles, CA

12y 92,550 5,257 4 6

Quoted from Fulltilt:

I bought a first run and it played pretty damn well, as long as I could keep the lights on. (:

I bought a first run and it sucked. And I couldn’t keep the lights on either. But most important was that JJP still hasn’t figured out how to make snappy flippers. And until they figure out how to make stern like snappy flippers, they will never compete with Stern.

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#6820 4 years ago
 
RJW

screaminr

In Memoriam

7y 116K 6,151

Quoted from vicjw66:

JJP still hasn’t figured out how to make snappy flippers. And until they figure out how to make stern like snappy flippers, they will never compete with Stern.

I don't have a problem with either . JJP's feel more solid but I put that down to the weight of the machine .

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#6821 4 years ago
 
JAM

Wolfmarsh

Pinside member

12y 134K 10,956

Quoted from Mr68:

Several years ago, a rookie manufacturing company called Jersey Jack came out with their first prototype, a machine called Wizard of Oz.
Pinside went hysterical about weak flippers and it was the end of the world.
.
Déjà fucking vu

I hope it's not complete deja vu , because JJPs weak flippers were probably just the herald for some major engineering blunders under the hood there in the beginning. Remember when their first engineer botched the design of their light system?

Quoted from vicjw66:

But most important was that JJP still hasn’t figured out how to make snappy flippers.

Also this. I don't know what it is about JJP flippers but they feel "off".

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#6822 4 years ago
 
JAW

jawjaw

Pinside member

US Humble, TX

9y 85,550 5,535 5

Quoted from vicjw66:

I bought a first run and it sucked. And I couldn’t keep the lights on either. But most important was that JJP still hasn’t figured out how to make snappy flippers. And until they figure out how to make stern like snappy flippers, they will never compete with Stern.

JJP games always felt a bit soft and floaty to me. They play fine but prefer the way Stern games play for sure. I only played RAZA a handful of times but fair to say they flip similar to JJP. One game definitely had a weak flipper when I played it but otherwise they just didn't feel strong. You could still shoot things in the game except for that one ramp. It doesn't really matter, though. The production game could be vastly different with different flippers.

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#6823 4 years ago
 
VIC

vicjw66

Pinside member

US San Pedro/port Of Los Angeles, CA

12y 92,550 5,257 4 6

Well Deeproot better figure out how to make strong snappy flippers because that ramp is going to demand them to be.

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#6824 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Not a fan of sterns modern flippers. They leave Alot to be desired, from my perspective.

I certainly hope DR flippers are built tough, rather than lightweight (snappy), and please don't follow sterns trend of Cheap materials!

"Snappy" is not always Powerful.

Slower flipper is Not always weaker.

Lighter is less durable. Inferior materials are weaker.

Give me strong, well crafted, reliable flipper mechs over the sub-par offered by stern, any day.

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#6825 4 years ago
 
VIC

vicjw66

Pinside member

US San Pedro/port Of Los Angeles, CA

12y 92,550 5,257 4 6

Stern flippers are plenty powerful when working right. There’s nothing better than the flippers on a brand new Stern. But cheap parts do cause them to break down fairly quickly. Slow solid flippers are no fun. And when JJP flippers break down they are especially bad. I think all the best players with top notch flipper skills prefer Stern.

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#6826 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Quoted from vicjw66:

Stern flippers are plenty powerful when working right. There’s nothing better than the flippers on a brand new Stern. But cheap parts do cause them to break down fairly quickly. Slow solid flippers are no fun. And when JJP flippers break down they are especially bad. I think all the best players with top notch flipper skills prefer Stern.

When working right is the key sentence there.

I mean weak as in construction, not about "power" levels. Stern flippers are undeniably inferior/cheaper than some other manufacturers.

Heavy flipper mechs, that actuate slower because of that, can certainly still be fast and powerful. Just better materials, engineering, more reliable.

I don't like the light snappy stern flippers at all really. I prefer Strong Solid flippers, which can still provide just as much velocity, except reliably. Yep.

Sometimes some people just might not clean as often as would be needed. I'd rather strip and clean, than replace a bunch of proken metal parts, made of shit metal that can not resist fatigue cracking. "Throw away" model is a problem going forward as well, anyway.

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#6827 4 years ago
 
DMM

DS_Nadine

Pinside member

DE Düsseldorf

8y 72,800 4,106 2

Screenshot_2019-12-02 Was I a good section (resized).pngScreenshot_2019-12-02 Was I a good section (resized).png
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#6828 4 years ago
 
TCB

Multiballmaniac1

Pinside member

6y 97,800 3,389 2 15

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You seem pretty easily impressed by mouthy rich people who make empty promises.

Michael Bloomberg?

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#6829 4 years ago
 
DHF

fosaisu

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 142K 10,355

Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Michael Bloomberg?

What about him? He jumping into the pin business too? At least we know he’s got the cash for it.

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#6830 4 years ago
 
CJM

cjmjmm2006

Starport

10y 107K 2,185 143

Stern flippers certainly feel different than the 90's games but we never hear customers complain about the flippers when they are playing with new or proper coil stops. This is really the only issue, other than that Stern games flip incredibly accurate and have a great feel. You can criticize the materials and I'm happy to hear your opinion however the feel and response to the flipping of a modern Stern is excellent. It's not better or worse than a Williams/Bally game it's just a different feel.

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#6831 4 years ago
 
BEN

noitbe1

Pinside member

FR Paris

11y 111K 1,937 4 11

this is the intent: (Steve Bowden inteview on TWIB)

"If you make the ramp powerfully, it will go past the diversion point and go down the left. If you make it “normally”, it will come down the right. If you don’t make it and you make it past the one way gate, it will bounce back off the one way gate and back into play. People started to learn this and they started to use the one way gate to get the ball into the snack shop targets which you can’t hit directly."

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#6832 4 years ago
 
???

fanuminski

Pinside member

US Circle Pines, MN

11y 63,050 434 9

Quoted from Russell:

Maybe some people just like their flippers weak. To each his own?

hmm... flipper doesn't seem weak to me

MindlessForthrightIchthyosaurs-small.gifMindlessForthrightIchthyosaurs-small.gif
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#6833 4 years ago
 
IGY

Lamprey

Pinside member

US Renton, WA

8y 40,300 871 5

Quoted from Fulltilt:

I just bought new coils from Terry at PBL for the weak ones on LOTR and was done with it. No more weak flippers.

Those coils are way too powerful for LOTR. If you are happy then I guess that is all that matters. However, if you are interested, there is a better alternative, the APB coils:
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1065-apb-enterprises/01414-new-stern-pinball-medium-power-coil-lord-of-the-rings-gnr

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#6834 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from Lamprey:

Those coils are way too powerful for LOTR. If you are happy then I guess that is all that matters. However, if you are interested, there is a better alternative, the APB coils:
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1065-apb-enterprises/01414-new-stern-pinball-medium-power-coil-lord-of-the-rings-gnr

Thanks. That was a LONG time ago. I agree, they were powerful for sure but sure did make it great for hitting that ring shot! BAM!
After about 45 minutes on one of those LONG LOTR games, the Stern flipper coils seemed to just fade the hell away... Terry's fixed it.

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#6835 4 years ago
 
LMS

Tranquilize

Pinside member

9y 84,550 3,781 35

JJP is like W/B to me, but adjustable. If they are too soggy, you can up the voltage. I love them, but they take a bit to get used to if you play a Stern right before. Stern's are snappy, and I love them too. Stern games are great for playing combos and trap and shoot. They are awesome to learn to play pinball like the pros. I love most pinball styles. Hell, I'll even play Orbitor 1 and have fun . . . for a while.

As already stated, it's just Stern's shit quality that is the problem on their end.

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#6836 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

And the sound....Stern flippers would work fine but sounded like I was bitch slappin' somebody.

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#6837 4 years ago
 
JEV

yaksplat

Pinside member

US Lancaster, NY

8y 85,300 2,104 8 6

Quoted from Fulltilt:

And the sound....Stern flippers would work fine but sounded like I was bitch slappin' somebody.

wow, i thought that was just me. I don't know what it is. just feels hollow.

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#6838 4 years ago
 
RAZ

razorsedge

FRAG

8y 78,850 3,257

Quoted from yaksplat:

wow, i thought that was just me. I don't know what it is. just feels hollow.

Light-weight? ... Flimsy? ...

Well for whatever it is worth, that is what playing a new stern feels like to me, anyway.

Counter acts the good things about stern games, to their detriment.

Hence being glad to be able to justify going for RaM, it isn't being thrown together cheap, as another baren fan layout by stern.

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#6839 4 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from Fulltilt:

Stern flippers would work fine

Being how cheap and prone to breaking they they are, that should knock a few bucks off each machine.

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#6840 4 years ago
 
VIC

vicjw66

Pinside member

US San Pedro/port Of Los Angeles, CA

12y 92,550 5,257 4 6

Quoted from Fulltilt:

And the sound....Stern flippers would work fine but sounded like I was bitch slappin' somebody.

No doubt, Stern flippers feel hollow and have a loud clacking noise to them. But in spite of that, they are the best. Love their backhanded capabilities. Williams fliptronic are a close second. But JJP claims to be like B/W when they clearly are missing something that made those flippers really good.

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#6841 4 years ago
 
ROB

Rdoyle1978

Pinside member

7y 117K 18,144 14 6

Quoted from Lamprey:

Those coils are way too powerful for LOTR. If you are happy then I guess that is all that matters. However, if you are interested, there is a better alternative, the APB coils:
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1065-apb-enterprises/01414-new-stern-pinball-medium-power-coil-lord-of-the-rings-gnr

Quoted from Fulltilt:

Thanks. That was a LONG time ago. I agree, they were powerful for sure but sure did make it great for hitting that ring shot! BAM!
After about 45 minutes on one of those LONG LOTR games, the Stern flipper coils seemed to just fade the hell away... Terry's fixed it.

FYI you will end up breaking some plastics eventually. Those coils work great - but they are definitely too strong for the game, and they change some of the shots. I can confirm from experience that the APB coils are perfectly balanced, and do not lose power after long games.

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#6842 4 years ago
 
TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,522 31

So, will RAZA be at TPF?

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#6843 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from yaksplat:

wow, i thought that was just me. I don't know what it is. just feels hollow.

They have improved greatly over the years though. The "loudest" ones I had were on Elvis. They were loud enough to distract me from the great music! (:

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#6844 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from pinballinreno:

So, will RAZA be at TPF?

Hey, we're talkin' Stern flippers here. . . .

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#6845 4 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from yaksplat:

just feels hollow.

That's the feeling I get every time I check back on this thread.

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#6846 4 years ago
 
MAT

branlon8

Pinside member

DE Köln

9y 54,800 954 15

Quoted from o-din:

That's the feeling I get every time I check back on this thread.

what are you talking about?? This thread is great!! It’s fun entertainment and a microcosm of the pinside world.

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#6847 4 years ago
 
DON

Fulltilt

Pinside+ Pro!

US Nowhere Ridge, TN

12y 114K 6,759 8

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

FYI you will end up breaking some plastics eventually.

Nah, sold both of them years ago. But I know what you mean.

Time for a break.....

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#6848 4 years ago
 
TDK

thedarkknight77

Pinside member

12y 92,050 5,189 7 37

After seeing Spooky’s Rick and Morty thread blow up, I am reminded how difficult a battle it will be for Deeproot with non-licensed themes. Spooky hasn’t even showed their game and they already have 20X the reaction/press.........and it’s positive. I also went back and listened to the Robert and Steve Bowden podcasts and is it me or do they genuinely sound uninterested. Clearly that reveal did not go well in their mind. Maybe it’s just me???

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#6849 4 years ago
 
SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,804

Quoted from thedarkknight77:

After seeing Spooky’s Rick and Morty thread blow up, I am reminded how difficult a battle it will be for Deeproot with non-licensed themes. Spooky hasn’t even showed their game and they already have 20X the reaction/press.........and it’s positive.

I guess I'm not the only one that has been hungry for something fresh. When you start talking about doing licensed themes from the 80s, it's just the same old spiel. Rick and Morty is going to blow everything else away and put pinball on a whole new plane.

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#6850 4 years ago
 
LTG

LTG

Pinside member

US Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,991 24 7

Quoted from o-din:

That's the feeling I get every time I check back on this thread.

My stalking o-din app alerts me and that is what makes me check back on this thread.

LTG : )

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