(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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#6751 11 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

The end of that article NAILED it. "DR doesn't owe anyone anything so we'll have to wait and see what happens."

They owe people games that they promised for their JPOP settlements.

#6752 11 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

They owe people games that they promised for their JPOP settlements.

And they also owe their investors a return. No such thing as a free lunch.

#6753 11 days ago

Yup unreal

#6754 11 days ago

its not too late for DR to consider a different direction

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#6755 11 days ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

its not too late for DR to consider a different direction

Stern already snagged the money-maker with the OG Star Wars license. If you theme a game after the latest three SW movies you don't get that nostalgic Gen X/Boomer money that's so crucial to pinball sales. And at that point you might as well go with a different blockbuster franchise like Fast & Furious, where at least your not competing against five or six existing machines with the same basic theme (but featuring the characters that your customer base loves, not the new ones that they're less jazzed about).

#6756 11 days ago

Or, like myself, they have a lower threshold for dumb-assery.

#6757 11 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

The end of that article NAILED it. "DR doesn't owe anyone anything so we'll have to wait and see what happens."

While they technically may not owe pinball enthusiasts anything, if they want us to buy their pinball machines, then we need to be confident that they won't go out of business in a year. And we need to be confident that their games will hold up maintenance-wise.

#6758 10 days ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

The end of that article NAILED it. "DR doesn't owe anyone anything so we'll have to wait and see what happens."

Yeah I think they owe a lot of people a whole lot of great profitable pinball machines.

Pretty sure the investors are expecting a reasonable return and not a total loss.

That would require production of games we want to buy.

-7
#6759 10 days ago

For the record, I didnt delete.

Mod team, what is the maximum # of "bumps" one can have before the post is censured? Is this posted in the rules? "Not 10, but more than 5?"

Not trying to be an arse, but can anyone refer me to the "Max # of bumps" Rule?

Thanks in advance. I await your information!!!

#6760 10 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Not trying to be an arse, but can anyone refer me to the "Max # of bumps" Rule?

Really? Not trying to be an arse?

#6761 10 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Not trying to be an arse,

Oh, I disagree. I believe you are trying to be an arse. Your history on this site is evidence of that.

#6762 10 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Mod team, what is the maximum # of "bumps" one can have before the post is censured? Is this posted in the rules? "Not 10, but more than 5?" Not trying to be an arse, but can anyone refer me to the "Max # of bumps" Rule?

Have they ever allowed “bumps” of non-sale threads? Especially ones that are getting multiple posts a day anyways? I can’t remember seeing it before, but then again maybe it’s rarely tried since there’s little point in bumping a thread that’s already attracting attention.

#6763 10 days ago
Quoted from Roostking:

For the record, I didnt delete.
Mod team, what is the maximum # of "bumps" one can have before the post is censured? Is this posted in the rules? "Not 10, but more than 5?"
Not trying to be an arse, but can anyone refer me to the "Max # of bumps" Rule?
Thanks in advance. I await your information!!!

Your argument is akin to a guy before a traffic judge for speeding 14 miles an hour over the limit. He wants the ticket thrown out because there is no written statute for 14 or any incremental number.

Over bumping was just an expression the moderator chose to explain that specific incident. If you want a specific rule violation, it would most likely fall under the Broken Record category. And even that I would guess is one of the implied rules as it would be impossible to detail every possible scenario.

Just deal with your punishment or open up a moderator feedback thread. You've been moderated on Pinside several times now to know how things work.

-4
#6764 10 days ago

I haven't seen RAZA yet, but it sure sounds like a lot of people making excuses for a poorly designed ramp. Reminds me of the Houdini-apologists.

#6765 10 days ago
Quoted from Russell:

I haven't seen RAZA yet, but it sure sounds like a lot of people making excuses for a poorly designed ramp. Reminds me of the Houdini-apologists.

There are people that like the game, me included, that way.

#6766 10 days ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Your argument is akin to a guy before a traffic judge for speeding 14 miles an hour over the limit. He wants the ticket thrown out because there is no written statute for 14 or any incremental number.
Over bumping was just an expression the moderator chose to explain that specific incident. If you want a specific rule violation, it would most likely fall under the Broken Record category. And even that I would guess is one of the implied rules as it would be impossible to detail every possible scenario.
Just deal with your punishment or open up a moderator feedback thread. You've been moderated on Pinside several times now to know how things work.

Sooo, no max bump rule then.

Anyway, back on topic. Looking forward to seeing some new pins!

#6767 10 days ago
Quoted from Russell:

I haven't seen RAZA yet, but it sure sounds like a lot of people making excuses for a poorly designed ramp. Reminds me of the Houdini-apologists.

So what are you doing here?
You’re patronizing?

#6768 10 days ago

Just curious? When will DR actually put games into production and have them available or is that a dumb question

#6769 10 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Someone needs to make “I got Deeprooted” T-shirts

Your mama got "deep rooted"

Lol

#6770 10 days ago
Quoted from Russell:

I haven't seen RAZA yet, but it sure sounds like a lot of people making excuses for a poorly designed ramp. Reminds me of the Houdini-apologists.

The ramp on TOTAN is the most cool and fun ramp to hit in all of pinball in my opinion. If they can get the RAZA ramp makeable at a good percentage, it will rival TOTANs. It’s pretty cool the way it goes up at the end like that.

#6771 10 days ago
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#6772 10 days ago
Quoted from Russell:

I haven't seen RAZA yet, but it sure sounds like a lot of people making excuses for a poorly designed ramp.

I'm am kind of surprised by how some games with tough shots are heralded as GOATs while others are pilloried as garbage for one difficult shot out of 7 or 8 major shots. There are a lot of great games with difficult shots. And yet I don't hear the same criticism of those games.

I want a diversity of machines and shots. I like machines that have a shot or two that is going to take me some time to master. I listened to Kaneda's interview with the state champion guy and while I agreed with some of his observations, I also have very different desires for a game than him.

#6773 10 days ago
Quoted from Russell:

Reminds me of the Houdini-apologists.

Houdini will never leave my house. I love it.

#6774 10 days ago
Quoted from konjurer:

I listened to Kaneda's interview with the state champion guy and while I agreed with some of his observations, I also have very different desires for a game than him.

I was kinda baffled with that one.

I kinda agree with much of what he's saying but referring to GotG as the kinda perfect game (wich for me is most generic modern game I can think of) took a lot of credibilty off of him (for me and my taste of course).

#6775 10 days ago
Quoted from noitbe1:

So what are you doing here?
You’re patronizing?

Trolling it seems, like some others.

#6776 10 days ago
Quoted from konjurer:

I'm am kind of surprised by how some games with tough shots are heralded as GOATs while others are pilloried as garbage for one difficult shot out of 7 or 8 major shots. There are a lot of great games with difficult shots. And yet I don't hear the same criticism of those games.
I want a diversity of machines and shots. I like machines that have a shot or two that is going to take me some time to master. I listened to Kaneda's interview with the state champion guy and while I agreed with some of his observations, I also have very different desires for a game than him.

Comp players seem to want their games "clinical"?. For the rest of us I think it is about enjoyment, the fun of the game!. Seems to sum it up from seeing the way things go. Just like a game being a fail only because not every shot can be made from a trap? Wtf?. Might be what some "serious" players want, but always trapping is simply dull to alot of regular pinball players like me, or a spectator.

Comp players can have their cookie cutter sterns, the rest of us might want something a bit more interesting, and challenging, I guess.

People here talk as if the ramp "can't be made" ... clearly it can. Just not from that beloved trap. One of the best things about the ramp imho, forces the clinical to get out of their comfort zone and actually play better. I guess there will always be those stamping their feet, having a little tanty, and refusing to play the game because of the "impossible" ramp shot (for some).

What a joke. Lmao

#6777 10 days ago

If they've designed it so you can only hit the ramp with the ball in Motion that's alright it's a little bit different and more challenging . Some people will like it , some won't . No one ever said you have to like every game . This game doesn't have the " buy me now " factor for me but hopefully future ones will .

#6778 9 days ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Comp players seem to want their games "clinical"?. For the rest of us I think it is about enjoyment, the fun of the game!. Seems to sum it up from seeing the way things go. Just like a game being a fail only because not every shot can be made from a trap? Wtf?. Might be what some "serious" players want, but always trapping is simply dull to alot of regular pinball players like me, or a spectator.
Comp players can have their cookie cutter sterns, the rest of us might want something a bit more interesting, and challenging, I guess.
People here talk as if the ramp "can't be made" ... clearly it can. Just not from that beloved trap. One of the best things about the ramp imho, forces the clinical to get out of their comfort zone and actually play better. I guess there will always be those stamping their feet, having a little tanty, and refusing to play the game because of the "impossible" ramp shot (for some).
What a joke. Lmao

It's not a joke if it costs them a lot of lost sales.

The customer is always right, even when they are wrong

#6779 9 days ago
Quoted from screaminr:

If they've designed it so you can only hit the ramp with the ball in Motion that's alright it's a little bit different and more challenging . Some people will like it , some won't . No one ever said you have to like every game . This game doesn't have the " buy me now " factor for me but hopefully future ones will .

I think people complain because the ramp cannot be made from a trap AND there is nothing to reliably feed the inlane to shoot it in motion.

#6780 9 days ago
Quoted from clempo:

I think people complain because the ramp cannot be made from a trap AND there is nothing to reliably feed the inlane to shoot it in motion.

But isn't that the whole point of what they're trying to do , to make it hard to hit , I'm not saying that I would do it that way but it's what they want to do . Maybe in home environment you can pump up the Flipper strength to make it doable but they don't want it that way .

#6781 9 days ago

Flippers were weak at the show and are probably adjustable so making the ramp from a trapped flipper should be a non issue. Nobody would design a ramp shot to be made only from a fast rolling ball

Quoted from clempo:

I think people complain because the ramp cannot be made from a trap AND there is nothing to reliably feed the inlane to shoot it in motion.

#6782 9 days ago
Quoted from cait001:

I think any ramp you can't make from a ball trapped on the flipper is a mistake.

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

#6783 9 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

Rumor was it was a prototype, too.

-2
#6784 9 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

Yeah, but physics wasn't... the inherent problems here don't go away with excuses.

#6785 9 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

Around 6 months left with DR just coming newbies always saying the same stuff again.
I think DR have heard all the critics anyway. If they want to mass product it, it better be ready. During the show, they seriously asked for feedbacks. I chose to believe in their capacity to deliver great pins, maybe because they deserve a chance for it. I still might be too enthousiast with things...
The guy who sold me my first pin some years ago used to own 140 pins, one of the biggest collector in France. Now he left the hobby,sold everything, and the pinball is behind him... He doesn’t even want to discuss it.
I just feel that this hobby needs some dreams and new projects to continue for some.

#6786 9 days ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Nobody would design a ramp shot to be made only from a fast rolling ball

Jpop says "Hold my beer"

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#6787 9 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

That ramp goes up then turns then goes up again. The ball seemed to go at a decent speed.

And if they get bashed because the power was turned down then they missed their demo.

#6788 9 days ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I was kinda baffled with that one.
I kinda agree with much of what he's saying but referring to GotG as the kinda perfect game (wich for me is most generic modern game I can think of) took a lot of credibilty off of him (for me and my taste of course).

It’s not the perfect game for me, nor did I say it’s perfect. In fact, I stated it’ll go against the grain. I was stating what feels like a knockout punch for me and I compared it to a modern game. A combination of shots is my knockout punch.

My preference for fun games is having a flow that includes a sequence of shots, thus I was talking about using the Groot head as a shot that ends of a sequence. Hitting Groot on its own is just chopping wood, which isn’t fun for me. Hitting Groot for a large multiplied super jackpot after a combo of ramps is fun, seeing a 500 million to 1.5 billion jackpot light up on the screen after hitting the right sequence is fun for me. This is a result of a mix between playfield layout and ruleset design.

Other examples that are flow and non-flow alike that I enjoy are the T-Rex Hurry Up fully built up. Shatzing on Meteor from right to left and ripping the spinner. Using the Barn / CDC combo to cash in a massive jackpot. Shatzing on Gorgar and hitting the 50k collect. Starting a multiball on High Speed.

Either way, it’s a preference. For me, hitting the orbit on RAZA then the ramp wasn’t satisfying on its own and this game isn't designed for someone like me that isn't a huge fan of modern non-flow games. Which is perfectly cool, this pin still has potential and could be a great package when it's final version arrives. For someone else, that might be the most kick-ass shot for them which is totally cool and what makes pinball great. There’s always something for someone.

#6789 9 days ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Rumor was it was a prototype, too.

it’s a PROTOTYPE?!

#6790 9 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

it’s a PROTOTYPE?!

This thread seems a bit repetitive, isn’t it? Even the humor

15
#6791 9 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

You can repeat it as many times as you want. It doesn't mean it's true, and it also doesn't mean the ramp wasn't a terrible design choice. Why would somebody showing off their game for the first time and hoping for real gameplay feedback/logs intentionally turn down the flippers and make one of the few potentially fun features on the game a chore to shoot? The videos I've seen show the flipper power to be fine for everything else. If the strength had to be turned down to avoid destroying elements closer to the flippers, then the game has contradictory design elements. If it's because the closer elements were 3D printed instead of being made out of a more durable production material, that might make more sense, but then they still didn't get the gameplay data they were hoping to get. Maybe they were just watching to see if people who understand the rules? Doesn't look like they were that complex or different from the norm. Maybe they were watching to see if the machine would hold up to a few days abuse? Don't really need random people at a show to give you that data.

This reveal was a complete head-scratcher all the way around. I'm not sure why people are trying to defend the terrible design or the poor choice to reveal the game this way. If you think the reveal doesn't matter, and you're waiting for the actual who-knows-when-it-will-be-ready release, then I'd think you wouldn't want to be reading this thread yet.

#6792 8 days ago

Deeproot apparently is only a prototype model of a pinball company and the power is turned down. Real world data for them is sketchy.

#6793 8 days ago
Quoted from stantman:

You can repeat it as many times as you want. It doesn't mean it's true, and it also doesn't mean the ramp wasn't a terrible design choice. Why would somebody showing off their game for the first time and hoping for real gameplay feedback/logs intentionally turn down the flippers and make one of the few potentially fun features on the game a chore to shoot? The videos I've seen show the flipper power to be fine for everything else. If the strength had to be turned down to avoid destroying elements closer to the flippers, then the game has contradictory design elements. If it's because the closer elements were 3D printed instead of being made out of a more durable production material, that might make more sense, but then they still didn't get the gameplay data they were hoping to get. Maybe they were just watching to see if people who understand the rules? Doesn't look like they were that complex or different from the norm. Maybe they were watching to see if the machine would hold up to a few days abuse? Don't really need random people at a show to give you that data.
This reveal was a complete head-scratcher all the way around. I'm not sure why people are trying to defend the terrible design or the poor choice to reveal the game this way. If you think the reveal doesn't matter, and you're waiting for the actual who-knows-when-it-will-be-ready release, then I'd think you wouldn't want to be reading this thread yet.

Interesting. I think you’re ready to run your own business without those flaws. Looking forward to see it and support it.

#6794 8 days ago

Deeproot will prevail

#6795 8 days ago
Quoted from stantman:

You can repeat it as many times as you want. It doesn't mean it's true, and it also doesn't mean the ramp wasn't a terrible design choice. Why would somebody showing off their game for the first time and hoping for real gameplay feedback/logs intentionally turn down the flippers and make one of the few potentially fun features on the game a chore to shoot? The videos I've seen show the flipper power to be fine for everything else. If the strength had to be turned down to avoid destroying elements closer to the flippers, then the game has contradictory design elements. If it's because the closer elements were 3D printed instead of being made out of a more durable production material, that might make more sense, but then they still didn't get the gameplay data they were hoping to get. Maybe they were just watching to see if people who understand the rules? Doesn't look like they were that complex or different from the norm. Maybe they were watching to see if the machine would hold up to a few days abuse? Don't really need random people at a show to give you that data.
This reveal was a complete head-scratcher all the way around. I'm not sure why people are trying to defend the terrible design or the poor choice to reveal the game this way. If you think the reveal doesn't matter, and you're waiting for the actual who-knows-when-it-will-be-ready release, then I'd think you wouldn't want to be reading this thread yet.

The things true are propably the things they said first hand.

#6796 8 days ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS TURNED DOWN. Not sure how many times it needs to be repeated.

Robert clearly said the Flipper power wasn't turn down . Having an opinion is one thing but stating that opinion as FACT is another .

#6797 8 days ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Doesn’t DR actually owe a lot of people games?
And what does “we’ll see what happens” mean? I hear that one a lot lately.

How many people have paid for games, any guesses?

Weren’t there about 120ish RAZA’s purchased? Many had to pay in more but not all customers qualified. Most did so there are maybe 100 games in question. Some opted for refunds after the imposed deadline passed, so maybe 75 games are owed. If games sell for $5.5k, they have a $400k liability to Zidware customers coming from $38 million of equity raised. I’d consider that a minimal risk for Deeproot.

#6798 8 days ago
Quoted from stantman:

You can repeat it as many times as you want. It doesn't mean it's true, and it also doesn't mean the ramp wasn't a terrible design choice. Why would somebody showing off their game for the first time and hoping for real gameplay feedback/logs intentionally turn down the flippers and make one of the few potentially fun features on the game........

What Is true is that it Was declared as a prototype well before being put on-site, and different in almost every aspect to the final version. They were not showing off their production game, this won't be for sale (it represents a "very low price point", which is not the target for RAZA). It did seem to take broken records for some to get that. It was always clear to me that if you wanted to call it a reveal, then it was a "reveal" of nothing complete. Prototype Testing. Why would DR want any large amounts of video out there of a flawed prototype game they are never going to release?. It is not in their interests to promote that.

What is also true is that many seem to assume this prototype game would somehow represent their current level of development.

Why wouldn't DR be keen to keep as many of their "surprises" as possible under wraps until their reveal? . Smartest choice for DR is to test the Oldest Most Thrashed Out cut down version of RAZA they have (for many reasons), that can still collect relevant system or game feedback/data.

As far as I see it, for DR, Houston was no more than a location test of a game that has probably existed for 12 months or more. Pretty much described that way by RM as well. People can call it a "reveal" all they like... but it wasn't, it was litterally a test of something "cut down". A "reveal" of something that you won't be able to buy, something for the public to see, play and talk about while DR "tests", little more.

They need the reveal of RAZA (which has not happened yet!) to be the greatest step possible better than this prototype game that people have already seen and played (wondering why to let the flippers be crap?). It makes sense that they would want to show their oldest most basic playable prototype of RAZA. If everything is playing out well you would have to guess that right now, since the old prototype has faced location play and transport etc., internally the focus would need to be around putting together the already different/up-to-date test prototypes, of the actual final finished version.

I am convinced at least some of the criticisms of the prototype we have heard in here, would have already been identified and incorperated into newer prototypes, from before November. I would guess some of the feedback becomes like confirmation, as well as new feedback from the public providing additional insights (some relevant to the current development, some not).

Of course the track record of pre-order pinball companies is bad... errr... hang on, this isn't a pre-order or deposit model? . Tough to find a comparison. There is no track record....

It will certainly be interesting to see what unfolds, and just how much value.

I'm Rooting for Deeproot!

#6799 8 days ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Robert clearly said the Flipper power wasn't turn down . Having an opinion is one thing but stating that opinion as FACT is another .

But I swear I rembember Steve Bowden saying different?

Maybe they're both wrong and they were just unmaintained.... gummy and sluggish... Lol

#6800 8 days ago

For those that actually played the pin, why not "tactfully" tell the attendants the flippers felt under powered and ask if they would turn the juice up a tad?
Why did no one "tactfully" ask to see the under the playfield and inside the back box?
Why did no one "tactfully" ask to see the "new tech" that RM has been boasting about?
I'm a firm believer you can talk about anything. It's all about the approach.
I've watched some of the videos and the attendants didn't "feel" like pinheads. They felt more like temp workers asked to baby sit a machine? They would've been prime candidates to catfish info from. Hell, even prototype cars at a car show will allow a look under the hood right? Worst case scenario you wouldve been told no. RM seems like a very proud man, I suspect he will go out of his way on the final product to give pinside the middle finger. "Let those who doubted us rule this day" ~Thorin Oakenshield

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