(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

4 years ago


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#6651 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

This really sounds fishy to me Ice. Its well known, start up pinball is not a money maker and the majority go under. How the F do you raise 30 m for a start up that is in an Industry that 90 percent goes under in the first two years? Certainly there are not that many dumb people handing this kinda money over to a well.... promoter. I,m being kind

It's sort of amazing isn't it Bill? They are operating under Reg D and file annual updates with the SEC. If you go onto SEC.GOV and search it you'll find the details right there.

Investment advisors are putting their "accredited clients" into this investment. Looks like an 8% commission.

However, nothing wrong with Reg D, idle capital sitting on the sidelines going to work in the marketplace creating jobs and opportunity. Usually high risk high reward.

Here you go, public records. Actually up to $32 million raised and filed for a new $37 million offering once they reach $35 million on the first one.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652459/000165245919000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml

#6652 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It's sort of amazing isn't it Bill? They are operating under Reg D and file annual updates with the SEC. If you go onto SEC.GOV and search it you'll find the details right there.
Investment advisors are putting their "accredited clients" into this investment. Looks like an 8% commission.
However, nothing wrong with Reg D, idle capital sitting on the sidelines going to work in the marketplace creating jobs and opportunity. Usually high risk high reward.
Here you go, public records. Actually up to $32 million raised and filed for a new $37 million offering once they reach $35 million on the first one.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652459/000165245919000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml

So there are likely hundreds of detached, moderately well off, relatively clueless people being sold small to medium sized investments by detached, relatively clueless salesmen on commissions.

Seems like an interesting financing model for what's a fairly esoteric creative industry, with a string of entry failures. Particularly at what appears to be the tail end of a long boom cycle.

If this is accurate, then I can see why he feels he has licence to make rather bold statements. There might not be any big investors, and the chances of them hearing anything he says, let alone organising to protect their money seem pretty small. Still, it doesn't make publicly calling your largest concentrated market a sewer any smarter, even if you aren't going to get in trouble for it.

I'd be especially curious to see what any sales literature or pitches might say. What kind of returns over what kind of time scale. Risk assessments. Even more curious to see what updates and annual reports for people who bought in might contain, particularly about the delays.

#6653 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

I did but I'm just putting off mowing the lawn .

#6654 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

So there are likely hundreds of detached, moderately well off, relatively clueless people being sold small to medium sized investments by detached, relatively clueless salesmen on commissions.
Seems like an interesting financing model for what's a fairly esoteric creative industry, with a string of entry failures. Particularly at what appears to be the tail end of a long boom cycle.
If this is accurate, then I can see why he feels licence to make rather bold statements. There might not be any big investors, and the chances of them hearing anything he says, let alone organising to protect their money seem pretty small. Still, it doesn't make calling your largest concentrated market a sewer rather publicly any smarter, even if you aren't going to get in trouble for it.
I'd be especially curious to see what any sales literature or pitches might say. What kind of returns over what kind of time scale. Risk assessments. Even more curious to see what updates and annual reports for people who bought in might contain, particularly about the delays.

I have had offerings like this explained to me as “I made you a bunch of money in a previously deal, I want you to put $XXX,XXX into this new deal.” The amount asked is usually less than the gains made in a previously deal. So if you win, you win. If you lose, you are still ahead when the win/loss is totaled across the multiple deals.

iceman44 or wcbrandes would know this better than I.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#6655 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

I couldn’t do it, honest

#6656 2 years ago

Can we get an index for Sledgehammer?

20
#6657 2 years ago

Am I the only one who doesn't care how they raise money as long as its not from Customers?

#6658 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Am I the only one who doesn't care how they raise money as long as its not from Customers?

I'd say you're right here with 99.9 percent of us... lol.

#6659 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Am I the only one who doesn't care how they raise money as long as its not from Customers?

Hear hear Wayne. Too many customers have been trodden on for Start ups. Homepin probably the worst!

#6660 2 years ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

Hear hear Wayne. Too many customers have been trodden on for Start ups. Homepin probably the worst!

preorder is aweful i agree with wayne, but I would suggest the ones who shot through are way worse than the ones who took way too long but stubbornly fought the battles and got there in the end. Its a sightly amount harder than it looks.

theres 3 preorder left to ship at homepin. They're built already. he took way too long sure but hes beaten it..

how many $$ do skitb heighway and dutch owe people? Homepin has had some drama but hes far from the worst when it comes to trodden on customers.

#6661 2 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

preorder is aweful i agree with wayne, but I would suggest the ones who shot through are way worse than the ones who took way too long but stubbornly fought the battles and got there in the end. Its a sightly amount harder than it looks.
theres 3 preorder left to ship at homepin. They're built already. he took way too long sure but hes beaten it..
how many $$ do skitb heighway and dutch owe people? Homepin has had some drama but hes far from the worst when it comes to trodden on customers.

nobody cares about Homepin, we are talking about a 30 million Dollar Company who actually has real game designers, you can't expect to mention Homepin in the same thread and no pre orders that I have seen

#6662 2 years ago

good.. then we agree more "deeproot is interesting" and less "homepin is the worst" talk is called for .. carry on

#6663 2 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

good.. then we agree more "deeproot is interesting" and less "homepin is the worst" talk is called for .. carry on

Actually that pretty much sums it up.

#6664 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Actually that pretty much sums it up.

danke für due blumen.. now back on topic

#6665 2 years ago

That last Kaneda podcast with the Oklahoma State champ was great, that guy's commentary was just stellar.

#6666 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

This really sounds fishy to me Ice. Its well known, start up pinball is not a money maker and the majority go under. How the F do you raise 30 m for a start up that is in an Industry that 90 percent goes under in the first two years? Certainly there are not that many dumb people handing this kinda money over to a well.... promoter. I,m being kind

The lesson I learned from jpop: "If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense."

This whole thing doesn't make sense.

#6667 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

in all honesty , i scrolled right on by

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#6668 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

CrazyLevi challenges a grasshopper to peel $2 from his soles or “face” the consequences.
4373D690-C985-44FB-B33F-08CF941A6EA9.gif

#6669 2 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I have had offerings like this explained to me as “I made you a bunch of money in a previously deal, I want you to put $XXX,XXX into this new deal.” The amount asked is usually less than the gains made in a previously deal. So if you win, you win. If you lose, you are still ahead when the win/loss is totaled across the multiple deals.
iceman44 or wcbrandes would know this better than I.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Funny thing is, people seem unbothered by this, but went apopleptic over The Pinball Company's crowd funding pitch.

#6670 2 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Am I the only one who doesn't care how they raise money as long as its not from Customers?

I care. What happens when Stern, Spooky or AP need to raise capital to fund expansions or to get by in a rough patch? Investors see 10 million burned and nothing to show, changes the potential future terms of the deal for others. Oh and also I just kinda care when people are ripped off by a snake oil salesman, even if it’s not a pinball person.

#6671 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I care. What happens when Stern, Spooky or AP need to raise capital to fund expansions or to get by in a rough patch? Investors see 10 million burned and nothing to show, changes the potential future terms of the deal for others. Oh and also I just kinda care when people are ripped off by a snake oil salesman, even if it’s not a pinball person.

Not sure I understand your fear. Your saying if a company like Stern with a 50 year production record needed an expansion support they would be evaluated based off a start up company with no production track record, products, or value? Not sure the bank system works that way??

#6672 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

Made to the last paragraph. Do I get a buck fifty for being close?

#6673 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

So there are likely hundreds of detached, moderately well off, relatively clueless people being sold small to medium sized investments by detached, relatively clueless salesmen on commissions.
Seems like an interesting financing model for what's a fairly esoteric creative industry, with a string of entry failures. Particularly at what appears to be the tail end of a long boom cycle.
If this is accurate, then I can see why he feels licence to make rather bold statements. There might not be any big investors, and the chances of them hearing anything he says, let alone organising to protect their money seem pretty small. Still, it doesn't make publicly calling your largest concentrated market a sewer any smarter, even if you aren't going to get in trouble for it.
I'd be especially curious to see what any sales literature or pitches might say. What kind of returns over what kind of time scale. Risk assessments. Even more curious to see what updates and annual reports for people who bought in might contain, particularly about the delays.

I get the impression (and I'm sure RM is laughing himself sick over how wrong I am) that Deeproot didn't get direct investments for the pinball side of things, but instead got investors for one of the shell businesses, and then the money sorta got funneled over to the pinball-side somehow. I don't think the investors were actually speculating on the pinball industry being successful. More like life insurance or the animation side or something. Could be way off though, but that's kinda the sense I get.

#6674 2 years ago

So here's some NEW tidbit to discuss:

In his interview, when asked who is the artist on the new RAZA playfield RM answered it's from the guys over in the other office/ branch...

I'd assume he didn't think about what he's provoking with that answer and maybe it was a team effort, but this doesn't yell proper recognition for the artist and maybe more important: People want personalitys!

(Grabbing Popcorn...)

#6675 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

I'm out!

#6676 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yeah, I’ve been hearing this since JJP entered the fray. Which, incidentally, is when prices started rise in leaps and bounds, a trend which has continued unabated. More pinball companies = higher prices apparently.

Yet 9 years ago the only Pinball maker in the world (at the time) with NIB at 3.5k almost went belly up. Less Pinball companies = crap Pinballs apparently.

#6677 2 years ago

I read the whole shebang, and that $2 happens to be $2.50 up here!

#6678 2 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Yet 9 years ago the only Pinball maker in the world (at the time) with NIB at 3.5k almost went belly up.

9 years ago we were in an economic recession. Tends to happen after periods of economic boom.

#6679 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

9 years ago we were in an economic recession. Tends to happen after periods of economic boom.

The “wealth effect” consumers are feeling along with much lower tax rates for profitable pinball companies along with more competition make today the best of times for pinball given the constraints of location play versus the 90s

#6680 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The “wealth effect” consumers are feeling along with much lower tax rates for profitable pinball companies along with more competition make today the best of times for pinball

Timeline-

10 years ago, deep recession, new pinball almost vanishes from the face of the Earth.

5 years ago, recovery well under way, pinball is feeling a rebirth and new companies start popping up. Prices of new and old machines start to climb like never before.

Present day, market crash of 2008 comepletely forgotten, "wealth effect" in full force, consumers spending money like there is no tomorrow. SuperLEs crack the $15k mark and sell out.

Tomorrow, ????

#6681 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Timeline-
10 years ago, deep recession, new pinball almost vanishes from the face of the Earth.
5 years ago, recovery well under way, pinball is feeling a rebirth and new companies start popping up. Prices of new and old machines start to climb like never before.
Present day, market crash of 2008 comepletely forgotten, "wealth effect" in full force, consumers spending money like there is no tomorrow. SuperLEs crack the $15k mark and sell out.
Tomorrow, ????

Like you said, a recession is coming. Just a matter of when. My point is it's hard to imagine it getting any better than it is right now.

Robert Schiller, Harvard economist and creator of the "Cape Schiller Index", thinks it could go on for quite some time despite the ratio being at "concerning levels" for the reasons described below.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/20/shiller-recession-likely-years-away-due-to-bullish-trump-effect.html

#6682 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

My point is it's hard to imagine it getting any better than it is right now.

That's usually the point where it has peeked. Alot will depend on what happens between now and next November. lol.

Like I said, in regards to this thread, I would hate to be the guy late to the party in this boom.

#6683 2 years ago

It's (when) not (if) the market takes a dump so what? Big freaking deal. Guess what happens after? The economy gets back on track and life moves forward AGAIN. Stop listening to all the raving idiots on the lame stream media promoting their warez fear tactics. If you're that worried sell all your shit and live in a card board box. If you love long enough you'll be able to tell the rest of us you were right.

#6684 2 years ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

It's (when) not (if) the market takes a dump so what? Big freaking deal. Guess what happens after? The economy gets back on track and life moves forward AGAIN. Stop listening to all the raving idiots on the lame stream media promoting their warez fear tactics. If you're that worried sell all your shit and live in a card board box. If you love long enough you'll be able to tell the rest of us you were right

High blood pressure much?

I don't listen to stream media or any of that garbage and I don't worry about it. My observation is from watching 50 years of the up and down cylcles of the economy, which does in fact greatly affect the pinball industry as it is now and how it will be in the next few years especially for a new company that has spent so much money and sold absolutely nothing so far. And I thought it was a good point to be made.

The best of times to buy are when the economy is in the tank, and other people that are in over their heads have to sell off all their shit for cheap. I'm not one of them. Cash in hand is always king.

#6685 2 years ago

Wait a second.

I hate to sidetrack things, but are you guys saying that pinball is something akin to a bubble, and this metaphorical bubble may inflate, appearing stronger, but in fact, MAY BURST?!?!

#6686 2 years ago
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#6687 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I hate to sidetrack things, but are you guys saying that pinball is something akin to a bubble, and this metaphorical bubble may inflate, appearing stronger, but in fact, MAY BURST?!?!

I'm going to answer and then let it go.

Buying pinball machines takes money. So do house payments and food.

If a pinball machine is not used for earning money, like most are not now, then items like food, shelter, and clothing take priority when there is no longer a lot of extra money to go around.

Rant over, carry on....

#6688 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Wait a second.
I hate to sidetrack things, but are you guys saying that pinball is something akin to a bubble, and this metaphorical bubble may inflate, appearing stronger, but in fact, MAY BURST?!?!

May have to start a thread so we can discuss in further detail

#6689 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

High blood pressure much?.

Nope! Because I don't worry about things out of my control (aka sky is falling syndrome) and this is definently one of them! Life is great and people need to start realizing it.

#6690 2 years ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Nope! Because I don't worry about things out of my control (aka sky is falling syndrome) and this is definently one of them! Life is great and people need to start realizing it.

It wasn't trying to come off as some kind of worry, because I am definitely not. It was more an observation. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out. From where I'm sitting it's kinda like a game of beat the clock.

#6691 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

It wasn't trying to come off as some kind of worry, because I am definitely not. It was more an observation. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out. From where I'm sitting it's kinda like a game of beat the clock.

Lol. You have set yourself up to be recession proof. Smart thing in retirement.

There are a WHOLE LOT of people and companies trying to "beat the clock" but they need some certainty. If things go in a different direction then companies like DR are up the proverbial "shit creek". Pinball needs a strong consumer and economy. Period.

The entire market is trying to decide what the risk is and how its going to play out.

#6692 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Lol. You have set yourself up to be recession proof.

Gotta be. Last one was so short, people forgot. It could be like the 70s, where you wait in line for 10 years just to get gas.

#6693 2 years ago

Wait you mean the imaginary oil shortage that caused us all to wait in long lines for gas? Then magically they found unlimited oil reserves and gas prices increased never to go down again? I remember

Quoted from o-din:

Gotta be. Last one was so short, people forgot. It could be like the 70s, where you wait in line for 10 years just to get gas.

#6694 2 years ago

In plain english then- a recession that seemed to last almost 10 years, although history books may not say that. And the only thing that pulled us out of it was mortgaging the future to do it. I don't need to teach history, but it does tend in one way or another to repeat itself.

#6695 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

In plain english then- a recession that seemed to last almost 10 years. And the only thing that pulled us out of it was mortgaging the future to do it. I don't need to teach history, but it does tend in one way or another to repeat itself.

We have been mortgaging the future since the year 2000 and accelerated to hyperdrive in 2008.

Just the facts.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-by-year-compared-to-gdp-and-major-events-3306287

#6696 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

We have been mortgaging the future since the year 2000 and accelerated to hyperdrive in 2008.

There is no plan to ever pay it back, but when payment comes due, it's gonna be a bitch.

#6697 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

There is no plan to ever pay it back, but when payment comes due, it's gonna be a bitch.

Amen brother. 2+2 is 4 last time I checked.

The math has to add up. Massive tax hikes are coming, social security and medicare are getting "fixed" like it or not, and there isn't enough to make a dent by hammering the 1%, even by taking it all.

So get prepared like Odiner, the future is coming for you if own anything.

A pinball wealth tax is certainly in the future.

#6698 2 years ago

Mexico at one time figured out a way to pay it back.

#6700 2 years ago

Dimples - Check
Sledgehammer - Check
Pinball CEOs - Check
The Great Depression of 2020 - Check
Deeproot Pinball - No Check

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