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(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

3 years ago



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#6601 1 year ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Then, after alot of hassles and effort by someone people bag, JpoPs victims were finally, literally, Deep Rooted! (but in a more loving kinda way ) .... they get something back, thanks to RM.
People have the right to be offended... or not be offended.
I'm optimistic. Not offended.
RM ....

This is wrong on so many levels. Jpop is a crook who stole money. RM hired a crook and took the designs that others funded. RM and Jpoop are equally wrong here.

Go ask Cointaker how RM is paying him back after repeated promises to do so.

#6602 1 year ago
Quoted from Delta9:

And the windows wont break lol

Can't wait to see the deeproot "hammer test" now.

#6603 1 year ago
Quoted from hank527:

This is wrong on so many levels. Jpop is a crook who stole money. RM hired a crook and took the designs that others funded. RM and Jpoop are equally wrong here.
Go ask Cointaker how RM is paying him back after repeated promises to do so.

Oh yes it's all so wrong wrong wrong. Lol

Of course some may well hold a grudge forever.

I'm still not offended. Not by DR, or RM, not even JpoP really.

There are plenty more serious things in the world to be offended about than the mere incompetent mess of a failed startup boutique pinball company, or the pompous "blustery" words of a guy pouring "his own money" into a new "innovative" pinball company (while helping to clean up someone elses prior mess).

News in pinball:

"Multi millionaire business man starts pinball company, at sacrifice of new yacht and Bugatti! .... then gets 'blustery'!!"

.....

.... or maybe it's just a pyramid scheme

#6604 1 year ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

I don't know much about this company or pin but anytime a new pinball is designed and goes into possible manufacturing than it's a good thing. Not sure why people are being so negative about a new pin...let alone a early prototype with some low grade pictures and video. Seems most that actually played it had fun and said it's a good start. Can't everyone just be excited for more options ? If you like it buy it..if not then wait for another new release. Fun or not what a great time to be in this great hobby with so many new choices.

People aren't really being that negative about the RAZA game itself. There has been a mix of reactions to its reveal, mostly toward the positive end. The negativity is towards Robert, how he conducts himself, and how much he's over-hyped various things. He's promised the moon over and over again, so people are judging the game, and Deeproot, based on RM's promises and on his bragging/shade throwing. Most people are excited about the prospect of new pins coming out; its just that there's a greater-than-normal amount of scrutiny and skepticism, because JPops involvement and because of RM's statements.

#6605 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Ed,
What is your understanding of why RM would adamantly say that "there are no investors" and it was "his money". Is he stretching the truth?

The SEC filings clearly show an Deeproot Pinball LLC offering $6 million in equity in 2015.

https://sec.report/CIK/0001642564
https://sec.report/Document/0001642564-15-000001/

I guess why did he submit those securities offerings to the SEC if he was just using his own money?

#6606 1 year ago

EDIT: removed the info from this post so it doesn't confuse anyone.

#6607 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to this, but this document from 2 months ago:
https://sec.report/Document/0001652459-19-000001/
Doesn't that show he sought $35,000,000 in investment in return for equity, and has sold $32,190,186 of what he made available?
Does it also show that $2mil+ of that was paid as finder's fees to find the investors?
Am I reading that correct?

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.

https://the575.com/

Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

#6608 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.
https://the575.com/
Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

Ok so completely different entity. I edited my above post so my questions wouldn't confuse anyone.

#6609 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

Can't wait to see the deeproot "hammer test" now.

Did you see Tesla's big reveal and test of their new glass?

#6610 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

IT'S A PROTOTYPE!!! [quoted image]

Is it prone to dimpling?

#6611 1 year ago
Quoted from sataneatscheese:

Did you see Tesla's big reveal and test of their new glass?

Yes, exactly.

#6612 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.
https://the575.com/
Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

Theory A -

If Deeproot’s burn rate is $750k per month and as they missed Expo 18, let’s say they are 18 mo behind schedule. Deeproot will have spent $13 million more than expected if RAZA is ready in March 20. If they had raised $6M in a public offering, Robert would need to be dipping into some of his personal money to keep afloat. Maybe that’s what he meant. Shareholders? Ha their money is gone. It is now Robert’s money funding the pinball division and that is why he said his money.

#6613 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.
https://the575.com/
Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

It's just strange. If he does have investors than the statements he made in the interview would probably generate some kind of legal issue. If he doesn't have any investors then I find it almost impossible to believe he paid for all this stumbling around out of his own bank account. My best guess is that this is "technically" his money but that he is not the only person taking a risk and that there are so many wrappers around this company that he is legally entitled to make that claim.

But then again, who knows, I work in the sewer...

#6614 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

It's just strange. If he does have investors than the statements he made in the interview would probably generate some kind of legal issue. If he doesn't have any investors then I find it almost impossible to believe he paid for all this stumbling around out of his own bank account. My best guess is that this is "technically" his money but that he is not the only person taking a risk and that there are so many wrappers around this company that he is legally entitled to make that claim.
But then again, who knows, I work in the sewer...

He previously boasted about his ability to raise massive clods of capital through investors to fund the project.

So who knows how the thing is actually structured.

#6615 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

He previously boasted about his ability to raise massive clods of capital through investors to fund the project.
So who knows how the thing is actually structured.

And why does it honestly matter? We only become investors if we Buy a game so it seems irrelevant unless he robbed a bank to build the machines.

#6616 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

And why does it honestly matter? We only become investors if we Buy a game so it seems irrelevant unless he robbed a bank to build the machines.

I think you are confusing the word investor with customer....

#6617 1 year ago
Quoted from jellikit:

Is it prone to dimpling?

Depends on how many pedestrians you intend to "airball".

12
#6618 1 year ago

So I listened to the Kaneda interview. I don't listen to Kaneda as a rule since most of the time I end up wishing that I'd stabbed myself in the eye with a spoon afterwards due to his tendency toward blathering on about basically nothing, groundless conjecture positioned as fact, and horrible mean-spirited personal attacks. I also don't think he really plays pinball for fun that much, commentating from the sidelines is his hobby, not playing pinball.

Aaaaaanyway. I will give him props for this interview, he's always a lot more sane with a guest on and it was really pretty decent and he was able to get Robert to talk a little bit about some things that I'm sure he had no intention of speaking about going in.

Here's my take...

- The "hack job" comment was meant to describe how they had to take the original ZY 2D art and then extend it themselves with other artists. This was not a slant against ZY at all, just stating a fact that when you have to merge different artists work it can be difficult and not seamless.
- They are working on multiple games per designer simultaneously. So attempting to complete multiple games at one time would explain slow progress.
- I was disappointed somewhat that they are sticking with wood PFs and CC vs some indestructible new materials or something, but he is certainly dedicated to producing a wood + CC PF that performs far better than anything we've seen in the last 5-10 years. This is a good thing.
- A lot of their innovation is obviously in the design and manufacturing area, which I'm really into so will be interested to see what they've come up with.
- He's growing weary of the whole pinball scene. If I was an employee at DR I'd be getting worried about now...
- Basically he made some provacatively bold statements out of the gate, it worked to garner DR attention, so mission accomplished. Now that the reality of the products is going to be known (well next May I guess), we can all judge them on their actual merits.
- He's had his fill with the haters and trolls on pinside, hence "it is a sewer". Luckily pinside can be more than one thing so while some threads/posters make it a sewer, others make it a treasure.

I hope they pull it off and make some games I want to play, maybe even purchase. I *really* hope they force some improvements via competition in the ever-declining quality and ever-increasing cost cutting in the industry.

#6619 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

And why does it honestly matter? We only become investors if we Buy a game so it seems irrelevant unless he robbed a bank to build the machines.

This whole thread is speculation on what Deeproot is doing/going to do. I think it's important to understand the financial capabilities of a fledgling company burning through $750k per month. Helps me understand their financial health and who the actual boss is. I think both JJP and Stern got a little boost when it became clear that they had investors.

Anyway, maybe it means nothing, hard to see anyway, stuck in this sewer.

#6620 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

And why does it honestly matter? We only become investors if we Buy a game so it seems irrelevant unless he robbed a bank to build the machines.

Because Robert has already stated that their cash burn is unsustainable without a launch soon, and resulting cash flow. Remember the interview a year ago, where he told us about the, at the time, $750k per month expenditure? That was December 2018, and he's since delayed the launch significantly. Quote below if you don't recall.

---

TWIP: Is there any concern at deeproot that the launch may never happen?
RM: Zero concern. We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term.

---

So funding is a pretty important topic.

Let's say they've spent $20m so far, and need to spend another $10m before they get 500 games shipped by the end of June 2020, or begin building them.

$30m is a lot of money, and that's likely a conservative estimate. If this isn't a success and dies, then that's a huge loss to the pinball market, huge loss for the mostly elderly talent he brought in from the industry, and a turn off to other potential entrants and investors.

He's been inconsistent on his statements re: funding, and there have been large delays & back tracking on their goals and what they can achieve. Then there was the rather underwhelming RAZA spectacle last weekend, plus the possibility that all the resources expended on JPop may never yield a return. So people are rightly concerned.

I very much hope they do release some awesome games, meet with lots of success, and become the next big player. But said delays, massively over-promising, seemingly big overheads (according to Robert) and JPop stuff looks bad.

#6621 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Because Robert has already stated that their cash burn is unsustainable without a launch soon, and resulting cash flow. Remember the interview a year ago, where he told us about the, at the time, $750k per month expenditure? That was December 2018, and he's since delayed the launch significantly. Quote below if you don't recall.
---
TWIP: Is there any concern at deeproot that the launch may never happen?
RM: Zero concern. We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term.
---
So funding is a pretty important topic.
Let's say they've spent $20m so far, and need to spend another $10m before they get 500 games shipped by the end of June 2020, or begin building them.
$30m is a lot of money, and that's likely a conservative estimate. If this isn't a success and dies, then that's a huge loss to the pinball market, huge loss for the mostly elderly talent he brought in from the industry, and a turn off to other potential entrants and investors.
He's been inconsistent on his statements re: funding, and there have been large delays & back tracking on their goals and what they can achieve. Then there was the rather underwhelming RAZA spectacle last weekend, plus the possibility that all the resources expended on JPop seem unlikely to ever yield a return. So people are rightly concerned.
I very much hope they do release some awesome games, meet with lots of success, and become the next big player. But said delays, massively over-promising, seemingly big overheads (according to Robert) and JPop stuff looks bad.

Fair enough just not of interest to me or my time personally. I have never really cared about any companies margins, habits, addictions, or success as it has no effect on me. Build a game, I buy a game, I am happy. If they asked for my money up front I would absolutely invest this much time into their business but no otherwise. Life is to short to care about other peoples business.

12
#6622 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Fair enough just not of interest to me or my time personally. I have never really cared about any companies margins, habits, addictions, or success as it has no effect on me. Build a game, I buy a game, I am happy. If they asked for my money up front I would absolutely invest this much time into their business but no otherwise. Life is to short to care about other peoples business.

You buy a game from a company, company goes out of business...you would care.

#6623 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Ok so completely different entity.

or maybe not so different... Just different legal entities... not necessary independent or disassociated entities.

And that's the crux of the matter.. from the outside we will never really know 100% how the operation is funded. We can however use facts and common sense to rule out some things, and theorize others that are likely or not.

One thing is for sure.. just having different legal entities doesn't mean much.. especially when they are part of the same umbrella and ownership. The man has made a career of insurance and securities... it is not far fetched to believe those same skill sets and know-how are going to be leveraged when creating an entity from nothing and spending millions of dollars to do so.

It also fits the scheme of why RM would be so boisterous and acting like prophet. You don't create FOMO by telling everyone 'we will start small and someday hope to be relevant...'

ETA: the only reason we even discuss this topic is because the guy makes claims that defy common understandings and practicalities. When the claims can't possibly make sense numerically.. that reflects on the claims and how people should receive them.

But I guess some people just think getting a game is all this is about...

#6624 1 year ago
Quoted from Lermods:

You buy a game from a company, company goes out of business...you would care.

I have a BBB, Cosmic Carnival, AMC Gremlin, scientific batting practice, Chicago Coin games, Genco Games,...... hasn’t made me care yet?

#6625 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

due to his tendency toward blathering on about basically nothing, groundless conjecture positioned as fact, and horrible mean-spirited personal attacks

That's probably the most succinct description I've heard of his problems yet. Kudos. Add in contradictory and Dunning-Kruger and it should be a pinned FAQ

Quoted from Fytr:

A lot of their innovation is obviously in the design and manufacturing area, which I'm really into so will be interested to see what they've come up with.

"Octo Manufacturing" -- I still put this whole category in "SOME ME THE MONEY". His boisterous claims mean nothing. Maybe "innovation" means being bold enough to do things the other companies won't. Often.. that's for a reason.

Stern is no saint nor perfect company... but what they are is an evolution of decades of experience and knowledge. You don't jump into an industry like this stone cold and claim superiority before you've even taken your first step... because you don't even know what you don't know. Even if you are Elon Musk with almost unlimited money and resources... you can see what it means to try to 'start fresh'. Look at all the learning and evolutions they had to go through to get things we take just take for granted from experienced manufacturers. And even now.. they launch a vehicle that won't even meet basic requirements and safety standards to be sold.

DP needs a lot more than words in this category to earn credibility. They've already shown the common mistakes of most upstarts... so I don't give them any free credits at this point towards them reinventing the process

#6626 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I have a BBB, Cosmic Carnival, AMC Gremlin, scientific batting practice, Chicago Coin games, Genco Games,...... hasn’t made me care yet?

He's previously talked about proprietary everything.

The effort to fix and keep running the HW Aliens has been Herculean.

13
#6627 1 year ago

Who actually cares what the personality of the owner of DR is? I mean really. I only care about great pins being made. Regardless of who the hell is building them.

#6628 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

That's probably the most succinct description I've heard of his problems yet. Kudos. Add in contradictory and Dunning-Kruger and it should be a pinned FAQ

Yeah I would have added those but it was already getting a bit long-winded.

Quoted from flynnibus:

"Octo Manufacturing" -- I still put this whole category in "SOME ME THE MONEY". His boisterous claims mean nothing. Maybe "innovation" means being bold enough to do things the other companies won't. Often.. that's for a reason.
Stern is no saint nor perfect company... but what they are is an evolution of decades of experience and knowledge. You don't jump into an industry like this stone cold and claim superiority before you've even taken your first step... because you don't even know what you don't know. Even if you are Elon Musk with almost unlimited money and resources... you can see what it means to try to 'start fresh'. Look at all the learning and evolutions they had to go through to get things we take just take for granted from experienced manufacturers. And even now.. they launch a vehicle that won't even meet basic requirements and safety standards to be sold.
DP needs a lot more than words in this category to earn credibility. They've already shown the common mistakes of most upstarts... so I don't give them any free credits at this point towards them reinventing the process

Well sometimes it takes a fresh upstart not burdened by knowing what doesn't work / is impossible to disrupt the status quo. I'm not giving DR any credit yet, other than it seems like they are genuinely concerned with finding better ways to build better quality games, and than can only be a good thing.

#6629 1 year ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Who actually cares what the personality of the owner of DR is? I mean really. I only care about great pins being made. Regardless of who the hell is building them.

At last we agree on something, friend!

#6630 1 year ago

Man it doesn't take long to run through 70 new posts...

#6631 1 year ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Who actually cares what the personality of the owner of DR is? I mean really. I only care about great pins being made. Regardless of who the hell is building them.

Summarizes about the last 4500 posts...

#6632 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Well sometimes it takes a fresh upstart not burdened by knowing what doesn't work / is impossible to disrupt the status quo. I'm not giving DR any credit yet, other than it seems like they are genuinely concerned with finding better ways to build better quality games, and than can only be a good thing.

Yeah, but like all good things.. it must be in moderation. I mean, by their own account, look at what it's gotten them so far? 2 years behind schedule? These guys aren't working for free...

And do you want to be the guinea pig paying for the unknown performance of those new ideas? People love risk takers... as long as their own personal risk is low

There is always change and improvement in your products... they aren't (should not be) holding themselves to a single platform they have to future proof forever.. so you gotta stop at some point and say "that is it" and commit to changing "the next one" if its prudent.

At this kind of pace so far... they better be delivering 'earth shattering' things in their games.. not just new hinges, etc. As much as people hated the pegs on Stern Pros... they didn't stop you from buying a game you really wanted.. nor did they make you buy a game when Stern swapped them out. Those kinds of things can only move the needle so far.. they still pale in comparison to the main reason people buy a game.

#6633 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

The payments to Jpop's victims were simply a transfer from the investors who bought deeproot securities to the Jpop victims. When this thing goes belly up, there will be a new set of victims.

First of all investors and speculators are not remotely in the same boat as people that actually just tried to buy a product from JFlop. Speculating has inherent risks and returns. Investors know this and have hopefully done their homework. You can't just start calling everybody that lost some money in the market a "victim". The word starts to lose it's meaning.

I doubt any of the gleeful posts here predicting (hoping for?) doom and failure are worried about an anonymous group of investors in any case.

My concern was seeing friends and fellow hobbyists get back some of their cash from that crook. RM's deal provided this.

I'll leave it to others to pontificate endlessly about DRP's inevitable failure. I'd be the first to agree it looks like a hell of a hill to climb and damn near impossible but we have to stay positive...

... for the investors of course (sob). Think of the investors!

#6634 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Yeah, but like all good things.. it must be in moderation. I mean, by their own account, look at what it's gotten them so far? 2 years behind schedule? These guys aren't working for free...
And do you want to be the guinea pig paying for the unknown performance of those new ideas? People love risk takers... as long as their own personal risk is low
There is always change and improvement in your products... they aren't (should not be) holding themselves to a single platform they have to future proof forever.. so you gotta stop at some point and say "that is it" and commit to changing "the next one" if its prudent.
At this kind of pace so far... they better be delivering 'earth shattering' things in their games.. not just new hinges, etc. As much as people hated the pegs on Stern Pros... they didn't stop you from buying a game you really wanted.. nor did they make you buy a game when Stern swapped them out. Those kinds of things can only move the needle so far.. they still pale in comparison to the main reason people buy a game.

Well I and many others are already paying for Stern's ongoing experimentation with cost cutting, lowered "new normal" standards on PF issues, insert clarity, etc. After the paint chipping issues on my HUO IMDNLE I'm out on any new Stern NIB purchases. Fool me twice...

DR's stated goal as I understand it isn't to make a few cool games, it's to basically revolutionize the industry. Go big or go home. That's why they feel they need lots of games, large production capabiliity, and new ideas across the board. That's risky, and it's exciting too. I have zero skin in this game, other than a keen interest in what they come up with in terms of new ideas and games. Ideally, the increased competition at some point would result in all manufacturers improving their product quality. If it all goes down the toilet in failure well so be it, at least they tried.

#6635 1 year ago

I get what Deeproot are trying to do - evolution rather than revolution.

I hope they produce some great games as much as I like modern Stern's, when was the last great toy they did on a game?

I feel like I am being seduced by code, design and LCD and would also love to have some wow moments with the way balls interact with things on the playfield.

If Deeproot make great games, they will sell, it's that simple.

#6637 1 year ago

Why do you keep doing this in a thread that already gets more attention than in currently deserves?

Hoping to see a bar fight break out?

Maybe in March there will be something to actually discuss (i.e. argue about).

#6638 1 year ago

The old adage-

Want to make a small fortune?

Start a pinball company with a big fortune.

Everyone’s assumptions on DR are just that, assumptions, you can’t assume his start up expenses were consistent. Some designers may not even be on salary - we live in a gig economy and who know how many staff are even full time.

For me I hope DR makes it as competition is good for the industry and will improve the outcome. No one should assume anything on their financial health, we are consumers and we should wish for their good fortune.

Ok - Robert should not trash potential customers on Pinside but this forum is an example of some ill will towards him regardless of who started it, I can understand his Distaste for Pinside from many posts here.

There are many people in the business world with questionable personalities and grandiose statements who succeed and fail. Let the product speak for itself when it is for sale and if it is good enough the market will settle all these comments the rest of the assumptions stated here.

The marketplace will always win.

The long long term on many established businesses these days are even questionable and many long loss businesses seem to keep going these days.

The market in the end always wins.

Vote with your checkbook when a product is for sale.

#6639 1 year ago
Quoted from wamonkey:

The old adage-
Some designers may not even be on salary - we live in a gig economy and who know how many staff are even full time.

Come on, if that were the case, they'd have to have been completely out of their minds given recent history in the industry. Especially as most of them moved half way across the country to Texas, and many quit existing gigs.

#6640 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

The SEC filings clearly show an Deeproot Pinball LLC offering $6 million in equity in 2015.
https://sec.report/CIK/0001642564
https://sec.report/Document/0001642564-15-000001/
I guess why did he submit those securities offerings to the SEC if he was just using his own money?

Keep reading. They are up to $30 million raised or thereabouts thus far

#6641 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Come on, if that were the case, they'd have to have been completely out of their minds given recent history in the industry. Especially as most of them moved half way across the country to Texas, and many quit existing gigs.

Really, I disagree what else do old pinball designers do when not working. Nothing is the answer...it’s like artists you pick them up when needed and then they are done when it is over.

My only point was start up expenses are not necessary constant and even if they were many businesses lose money for years.

A products price in the end Generally reflect of costs To produce it but not always.

We have many notable example of products these days delivered for free or at a loss. The internet did that to many industries and many old business rules are up-ended these days it seems, that was my point.

The industry will benefit if more competition exists and the market will determine who will make it.

#6642 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Keep reading. They are up to $30 million raised or thereabouts thus far

This really sounds fishy to me Ice. Its well known, start up pinball is not a money maker and the majority go under. How the F do you raise 30 m for a start up that is in an Industry that 90 percent goes under in the first two years? Certainly there are not that many dumb people handing this kinda money over to a well.... promoter. I,m being kind

#6643 1 year ago
Quoted from Fytr:

So I listened to the Kaneda interview. I don't listen to Kaneda as a rule since most of the time I end up wishing that I'd stabbed myself in the eye with a spoon afterwards due to his tendency toward blathering on about basically nothing, groundless conjecture positioned as fact, and horrible mean-spirited personal attacks. I also don't think he really plays pinball for fun that much, commentating from the sidelines is his hobby, not playing pinball.
Aaaaaanyway. I will give him props for this interview, he's always a lot more sane with a guest on and it was really pretty decent and he was able to get Robert to talk a little bit about some things that I'm sure he had no intention of speaking about going in.
Here's my take...
- The "hack job" comment was meant to describe how they had to take the original ZY 2D art and then extend it themselves with other artists. This was not a slant against ZY at all, just stating a fact that when you have to merge different artists work it can be difficult and not seamless.
- They are working on multiple games per designer simultaneously. So attempting to complete multiple games at one time would explain slow progress.
- I was disappointed somewhat that they are sticking with wood PFs and CC vs some indestructible new materials or something, but he is certainly dedicated to producing a wood + CC PF that performs far better than anything we've seen in the last 5-10 years. This is a good thing.
- A lot of their innovation is obviously in the design and manufacturing area, which I'm really into so will be interested to see what they've come up with.
- He's growing weary of the whole pinball scene. If I was an employee at DR I'd be getting worried about now...
- Basically he made some provacatively bold statements out of the gate, it worked to garner DR attention, so mission accomplished. Now that the reality of the products is going to be known (well next May I guess), we can all judge them on their actual merits.
- He's had his fill with the haters and trolls on pinside, hence "it is a sewer". Luckily pinside can be more than one thing so while some threads/posters make it a sewer, others make it a treasure.
I hope they pull it off and make some games I want to play, maybe even purchase. I *really* hope they force some improvements via competition in the ever-declining quality and ever-increasing cost cutting in the industry.

Well said!

#6644 1 year ago

Edit: Read this Post and get 2$ from Levi!

Quoted from konjurer:

Perhaps I can lift the shroud of mystery for you. I study and teach this stuff for a living and, while you may not like his style, I read the tea leaves as he knows exactly what he's doing and I think he is setting DR up for success. His team is designing for manufacturing as he is developing the product. He's laying down the architectural runaway for production (he calls the DR Package). When he talks about innovation hes not talking just about some crazy new mech never before seen, he's talking incremental improvements in the manufacturing process, materials and design. DR is learning, reacting to data and pivoting as they go. They're incorporating lean-agile thinking which is a deep and rich set of tools, principles and behaviors. He's not trying to develop one perfect machine but setting up products for different segments of the market. On top of that he seems to have the capital and, most importantly, a vision to pull it off.

You can downvote that all that you want guys but this is exactly it, and if RM really is doing it (wich nobody here knows) it is the exact thing Sterns "competitors" are missing.

- JJP basically started with a PC, not a slim & cost effective system, and targets a higher priced market segment. Now that they gain up ground, they optimize and start to aim for the lower tier market. Manufacturing seems to be compareable (no groundbreaking innovation) but no factual evidence here.

- AP started with off the shelf components as well (P3) wich is good to start quickly with but in the long run again not as cost effective. Yet with original themes, small hiccups and very hard effort they manage to undercut at least Stern Premium pricepoint while delivering more value. (I'd buy Houdini over any Stern Premium.) But (conjecture) they can't cash in on any hype if the manufacturing is not fast enough and if it'd be faster they wouldn't have the next game ready when the demand stalls.

So bearing that in mind you need your homework done regarding tech, manufacturing and processes before developing a game. Something that the competition couldn't do due to financial restraints. What Deeproot intend to to in terms of tech and manufacturing I don't know, but in addition to improvements in the mentioned areas you either need a scalable manufacturing process ("Quad-/ Octo-Assembly", altough this nomenclature was more of a PR thing) or, or better AND enough work (games) to keep your line busy.
That seems to be the plan and since everything has to start and ramp up at one point it only makes sense to start "small" with only one or two games. You see how it works, and release another game if demand stalls or if stable begin to ramp up production.

As much as it was foolish from JPop to reinvent the wheel regarding cabinets and other stuff and not using off the shell parts (wich for his production numbers would have been way cheaper), it is the only correct way if you set up a business that -as Robert did put it- want's to make a dent in Sterns market share.
Everyone can make a game. Especially that Staff at Deeproot should be able to manage building a finished game in all that time. AP did it and all Kudos to them! - So while most folks here see pure incompetence, because of "what did they do all those years" I'd guess they did what I think a business like them should do, and Robert says they are doing, wich is setting the basics first.

Of course maybe they just took a long vacation and Robert just throws all those "Buzzwords" in all the right places because he is a charlatan,... but that'd be not the first thing I'd assume with all that people.

I see other gaping problems/ open questions tough, since their PR really IS horrible and they hinted they want to omit distributors (wich makes sense since they would not have to a include a margin for them) but with a product like a pinball machine that is a hard thing to do and set foot in the community.
Before you can "expand" your audience you'd have to have one. So it makes sense to have machines at distributors.
(Wich of course, everything is possible. Giving the Distributor a machine for the showroom and pay them something for a "mediate" an order and deliver yourself, instead of having them to buy your shit unseen and sit on all of those WWE machines would be a good proposition. )

Not saying any of this is what is happening or will happen. Just want to say as well, that Robert makes way more sense then most of you think.
And if it all goes south, we'll stand on the sidelines and watch that ship burn... again...

So, whatever will happen it will be very interresting!

#6645 1 year ago

It all sounds set up good for a continuous thriving economy.

Timing is very important with any startup, but even more important with bigger overhead and ambitions. Several years ago we saw a few new pinball manufacturers, some did not survive, and although we know it was tough, part of what helped those that did succeed was timing.

A promising company joined the pinball landscape in the mid 90s with certain innovations and even some games that were better received than what the other established companies had to offer. They were short-lived and called Capcom, perhaps partially a victim of just very bad timing.

19
#6646 1 year ago

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.

Honor system!!!

#6647 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

Doubt you’ll be making many payments. Lol

#6648 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

Do I qualify?

#6649 1 year ago

I read the first few lines. lol.

I guess nobody wants to acknowledge or face the fact that a thriving economy like the one we've been in for the last ten or so years will eventually stall. Ten years is about the longest this nation has ever seen one. It's been so good, the crash of 2008 is almost a distant memory now. And NIB pinball machines have been flowing like a river with this boom.

3haic3 (resized).jpg

#6650 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’ll PayPal $2 to anybody who actually read all of that.
Honor system!!!

I did read all of it

Easy 2 bucks!

Don't worry about a transfer, I donate the funds toward your next beer mate!

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