(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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#6451 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It’s going to destroy my social life. Hard to leave the apartment.

I like your LaZboy too. I've got several pieces myself. Was going to comment but am banned from the hobbies without flippers subforum.

Congrats!

#6452 4 years ago

There was a time.

9A324E76-56BB-4A3E-BE9D-760B8548084A (resized).png9A324E76-56BB-4A3E-BE9D-760B8548084A (resized).png
#6453 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

So more than Bally/Williams did in 1995 with 9 different titles? Kinda hard to believe if you ask me.
That's almost 1000 a day boxed up and out the door.

100, not 1000.. but still totally bunkus.

#6454 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

100, not 1000.. but still totally bunkus.

Yeah, I added one too many zeros.

Pinball may be booming in home use, but I have a hard time believing the numbers are even close to the mid 90s when they were on location everywhere.

#6455 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

So more than Bally/Williams did in 1995 with 9 different titles? Kinda hard to believe if you ask me.
That's almost 1000 a day boxed up and out the door.

I think he got excited and added an extra 0 to that number. lol

EDIT: As did you apparently

#6456 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

So more than Bally/Williams did in 1995 with 9 different titles? Kinda hard to believe if you ask me.
That's almost 1000 a day boxed up and out the door.

Yeah, that sounds 2 to 3 times too high.

#6457 4 years ago
Quoted from adol75:

62.000 pinsiders even if there's a lot of inactive accounts, most likely a lot of operators here, a big portion of serial buyers, I would say treating Pinside well can have a significant impact on a pinball company.
Then there is google and with the numbers of pages and word count that Pinside has on each brand, the link often shows up on first page.

Yep. The same Pinside that swore off NIB pins during the last round and this round of #clearcoatgate, yet continues to buy them.

You can definitely gauge overall trends and sentiments here, but there is definitely a *very* vocal minority that speaks the loudest. Pinside is not to be ignored, but it is not to be blindly appeased, either.

#6458 4 years ago
Quoted from ralphcousman:

There was a time.[quoted image]

3799 in 2010 is equivalent to 4500 in 2019 according to the inflation calculator. And that’s a “home pin” with no coin mechs and IIRC stripped down features (less magnets).

#6459 4 years ago

The only way Deep Root can price a game (slightly) under a Stern Pro is if they do direct sales.

But they have talked about a distributor network, so I’m not sure how likely that is. Yet they also talk about customizing the games in the factory for the owner. Maybe they’ll approach the distributor system differently.

#6460 4 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

3799 in 2010 is equivalent to 4500 in 2019 according to the inflation calculator.

I have never paid any attention to inflation. But I do get it.

#6461 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

Classic...
I think "three green triangles" should be added to the official Pinside lexicon. Kinda like Fanta and select deli meats.
Does anyone have a link to that thread by the way? I can never find stuff with the Pinside search.

Come on people.

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#6462 4 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

The only way Deep Root can price a game (slightly) under a Stern Pro is if they do direct sales.

Perhaps we haven't seen the end of the Zizzle line yet.

Who knows, they might have some cheaper stripped down games for poor people.

For all we know this RAZA could be a $10k list price game.

But I don't listen to sales people or podcasts, so I'm just guessing.

#6463 4 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

distributor network

I was in my distributor's warehouse for 45 minutes today talking and he said he had never even heard of deeproot. He is on here, just not as much as he should be maybe. I hope he handles the games if they turn out good, so I can take the hour drive to pick one up.

#6464 4 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

The only way Deep Root can price a game (slightly) under a Stern Pro is if they do direct sales.

Wich they said they wanna do. (Way in the beginning.)

Quoted from TreyBo69:

But they have talked about a distributor network, so I’m not sure how likely that is. Yet they also talk about customizing the games in the factory for the owner. Maybe they’ll approach the distributor system differently.

They more "mentioned" the distributor Network... but yes noone sees how they'd do without it.
Latest when they go internationally.

#6465 4 years ago

Everyone keeps saying it’s impossible to undercut a Stern Pro.

I’m curious (and too lazy to do it myself): Has anyone priced out the hardware of a Stern Pro? Yes, that doesn’t cover software, design, support, distribution, etc. I’m talking orders of magnitude kinds of estimates here.

If the hardware is, say, 50% of MSRP, then things like production efficiencies could provide a decent edge. If the hardware is 75%+, then we’re talking something different.

And, yes, I know we can’t account for economies of scale. Again, just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

#6466 4 years ago
Quoted from cjchand:

just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

It will get easier, I was told today that Stern is about to go up again on prices.

#6467 4 years ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Everyone keeps saying it’s impossible to undercut a Stern Pro.
I’m curious (and too lazy to do it myself): Has anyone priced out the hardware of a Stern Pro? Yes, that doesn’t cover software, design, support, distribution, etc. I’m talking orders of magnitude kinds of estimates here.
If the hardware is, say, 50% of MSRP, then things like production efficiencies could provide a decent edge. If the hardware is 75%+, then we’re talking something different.
And, yes, I know we can’t account for economies of scale. Again, just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

Because no one has been able to mass manufacture a game for less

Even an incredibly lean operation like Spooky Pinball can’t get a game like TNA under Stern Pro pricing, and that game came to them nearly fully developed.

#6468 4 years ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Everyone keeps saying it’s impossible to undercut a Stern Pro.
I’m curious (and too lazy to do it myself): Has anyone priced out the hardware of a Stern Pro? Yes, that doesn’t cover software, design, support, distribution, etc. I’m talking orders of magnitude kinds of estimates here.
If the hardware is, say, 50% of MSRP, then things like production efficiencies could provide a decent edge. If the hardware is 75%+, then we’re talking something different.
And, yes, I know we can’t account for economies of scale. Again, just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

Yes there are dozens of posts here where people come up with imaginary BOMs and pretend they’ve cracked the code of exactly how much it costs. They don’t matter because they aren’t based on any reality, they are basically a parlor game.

#6469 4 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Because no one has been able to mass manufacture a game for less
Even an incredibly lean operation like Spooky Pinball can’t get a game like TNA under Stern Pro pricing, and that game came to them nearly fully developed.

It is comparing oranges with tennis balls, but Haggis says $5250 for Celts.

If Damien can construct a machine for that kind of money, what does that suggest for DR or stern....

#6470 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes there are dozens of posts here where people come up with imaginary BOMs and pretend they’ve cracked the code of exactly how much it costs. They don’t matter because they aren’t based on any reality, they are basically a parlor game.

That is indeed correct, but saying so yourself you can't support your own “can’t undercut Stern” Statement.

#6471 4 years ago
Quoted from zombieyeti:

* Zombie Yeti's version of "artwork on Raza was a hack job".
Sounds slanderous.... of course Jpop was the 'ART director' and his eventual 'vision' (A.B. After Ben) required that I create all of the playfield art in AI as vector. Any illustrator knows that's a great way to limit detail & speed (jpop didn't know photoshop and wanted to tweak colorways) - but I finally relented at the moment he started to request EXACT IP characters and elements - not my original ideas. (Ask my wife about how much I wanted to run away at that point...)
That said - it's fantastic to see Robert sh*tting on all the effort (and drama therein) of so many people in pinball that actually have made games you can buy and play today. Classy stuff. Best of luck.

I am just now listening to the podcast and I am sure my comments might be echoed, but this should be worn as pride. In the podcast he doesn’t call out anyone else by name. He specifically called you out and said that he would not sell based on art. He has basically said that you are one of Sterns most important assets, I can’t disagree. When you are exceptional and passionate about your work you will get arrows. Be proud that a competitor views YOU as a reason why we purchase Stern.

#6472 4 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Because no one has been able to mass manufacture a game for less
Even an incredibly lean operation like Spooky Pinball can’t get a game like TNA under Stern Pro pricing, and that game came to them nearly fully developed.

TNA is in many ways way more elaborate then a Stern Pro (lasercut siderails, full RGB lighting, multiple displays, real backglass, topper, more coils), Spookie buys parts in way smaller batches and from a distributor (many parts came from pinball life) not directly from the manufacturer and they don't have an as effictive line as Stern and no one that speaks spanish, I suppose.

#6473 4 years ago
Quoted from zombieyeti:

* Zombie Yeti's version of "artwork on Raza was a hack job".
Sounds slanderous.... of course Jpop was the 'ART director' and his eventual 'vision' (A.B. After Ben) required that I create all of the playfield art in AI as vector. Any illustrator knows that's a great way to limit detail & speed (jpop didn't know photoshop and wanted to tweak colorways) - but I finally relented at the moment he started to request EXACT IP characters and elements - not my original ideas. (Ask my wife about how much I wanted to run away at that point...)
That said - it's fantastic to see Robert sh*tting on all the effort (and drama therein) of so many people in pinball that actually have made games you can buy and play today. Classy stuff. Best of luck.

He also says their own thing is a hack job and you're an incredible artist in the same interview, so don't let it get to you.

#6474 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

TNA is in many ways way more elaborate then a Stern Pro (lasercut siderails, full RGB lighting, multiple displays, real backglass, topper, more coils), Spookie buys parts in way smaller batches and from a distributor (many parts came from pinball life) not directly from the manufacturer and they don't have an as effictive line as Stern and no one that speaks spanish, I suppose.

Not to mention a super solid cabinet and perhaps the best playfields in the business. I know a batch of TNAs had problems but it was my understanding it was a machining error that was soon corrected. The hardness and quality of the wood and the clear on mine was second to none. Looked way better than my moon cratered BM66 and was certainly cheaper than that.

#6475 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Not to mention a super solid cabinet and perhaps the best playfields in the business. I know a batch of TNAs had problems but it was my understanding it was a machining error that was soon corrected. The hardness and quality of the wood and the clear on mine was second to none. Looked way better than my moon cratered BM66 and was certainly cheaper than that.

I had my TNA open every week with RGB LEDs, Flippers and the Pop failing.
Got a scar from cutting myself on an assembly, while fiddling with the Pop bumper trough the coin door, because I didn't want to open it again, then sold it in anger.

Still a great game tough.

18
#6476 4 years ago

Let's clear up some simple math here for the mathematically challenged!

"BOM" or Bill of materials is also known "COGS" or Cost of Goods Sold

These are the direct costs of making a unit, direct labor (line workers) and materials (parts, cab, mechs, etc.)

If the BOM on a Stern Pro is $3500, or whatever it is, that is NOT the only cost of making the pinball machine!!!!!

You have to add all the indirect costs and Fixed overhead.

Salaries, sales, factory, equipment, insurance, administrative, etc. etc. etc.

Let's say Stern's indirect or Fixed Overhead is $15,000,000 per year regardless of how many pinball machines they run across the line.

Let's say they are now up to 15,000 pins per year, that would add another $1,000 to the cost of each pin.

That is why they have to "keep the line running" because the fixed overhead never stops running.

Sales Price $5,500
-COGS -$3,500
Gross Margin $2,000
-Fixed Overhead -$1,000

Equals Net Profit $1,000 per machine x 15k machines is $15 million overall profit. I'm guessing its probably 1/2 that due to other cost factors such as distribution and warranty Net profit margins are more likely in the 10-15% range.

Who knows, but that's how the basic math works. If they were at 10k pins in 2017 and Dwight said they have grown at a 25% pace the past two years that is how I'm getting to 15k machines.

#6477 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If they were at 10k pins in 2017 and Dwight said they have grown at a 25% pace the past two years that is how I'm getting to 15k machines.

Those are great numbers indeed. Until of course the long overdue next economic slump or recession hits, and with some of what's going on in the news, that could happen any day now. Then that 25% could quickly go 50% or more the other way.

IMO not the best time to be starting up a new pinball company with very large overhead and zero sales so far. And instead of having at least one game ready, working on many at the same time. But we'll see.

#6478 4 years ago

It’s amazing how many pinball manufacturing experts we have in here but still the same amount of actual pinball manufacturing company’s.

Based on this thread alone, we’d have a new pinball manufacturing company every hour.

I’d pay $$$ to see Gary, Robert, and Jack sitting in a room reading this thread laughing their asses off

#6479 4 years ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

It’s amazing how many pinball manufacturing experts we have in here but still the same amount of actual pinball manufacturing company’s.

I don't think you need to be any kind of expert to figure out when the economy goes in the tank again, so will the pinball industry.

It won't be like the 30s or 70s when coin op boomed, it will be more like the late 2000s when homeowners had bigger priorities than buying new machines for their game rooms.

#6480 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Ony thing I "officially" get out from that podcast, is that Robert more & more refrains from that "Ferrari for Fiat" price statement.
They want to offer the best "value", aka. "best bang for the buck"...
...that of course is nice but still it'd be great not to fish in the same pond as everybody else (incomewise) and offer a cheaper alternative to a Stern Pro, to get other -new- segments of people into pinball.
(They just have to expand the market if they all want to stay in business and healthy.)
Well I'd guess no Stern Pro priced Magic Girl for me...

I think he suggested that what we seen at Expo in this RAZA prototype was the kind of thing that he would call entry level, or budget. Something of a much lower price point. New markets ....

But for RAZA, 95% of the playfield? .... does mean there is another 5% still to be added or changed.

What if Magic Girl has two options for feature level? ... the premium costly, but the MGPro comes out costing the same or less as a stern Pro... but with more features and all round inovation than a stern Premium?. Is that value?.

It is doable.

Stern should reap massive profits, given their pricing. But they are wise to keep that level a closely guarded secret, of course.

If profit was really so modest, why wouldn't they give evidence? ... stern is not transparent, or open about about numbers or details. They exist to make money, as much of it as possible.

19
#6481 4 years ago

A few big takeaways from Robert's interview:

*RAZA and future pins will definitely NOT be priced at or below Stern pros. He actually seemed kinda offended at the notion, like we didn't value his, and his team's, efforts enough. (seems like Premium/LE pricing for sure now)
*You can take a regular hammer to DR playfields, but not an actual sledgehammer. His previous statements were "of course" hyperbole. (I do appreciate how seriously he takes the playfield issue, it was nice to hear a manufacturer be this upfront about the issue)
*His interest in pinball is fading (Not sure what that means for the future, since he hasn't released even one machine to the public yet. Hopefully, the rest of his team is still interested!)
*He thinks pinside is a sewer, and nothing anyone posts on it has ANY value (does that make us all sewer-dwellers, by extension? worthless too apparently?)

His comments about pinside annoyed me the most, because while yes there are jerks on the forum, there are also a whole lot of decent people. You can post an issue with your machine in any owners thread, and within an hour you'll have 6 people come online to give advice, and say how they had the same problem, and here's how they fixed it, and post up pictures, and provide parts links. There's a lot of good on pinside, a lot of really helpful/kind people, and a lot of genuine positive excitement about upcoming machines. I find that if someone is truly being an jerk, without any merit to their statements, then they tend to get called out on it. If Robert had approached his marketing and public-persona differently, then I think he'd have had a much better time on pinside.

Also, ask the average bar/arcade owner if they have heard of deeproot. Now ask the average pinsider. Pinsiders are currently deeproot's biggest customer base. You can't compare DR to Stern in regards to needing pinsider money. You have to compare DR to other boutique companies in regards to scale and customer demographics.

#6482 4 years ago

I am truly rooting for Deeproot. As pinball collectors and enthusiasts, we should ALL be pulling for them. More pinball companies equal better options, further innovation, and potentially even pricing wars.

After playing quite a few games on RAZA, I have high hopes. It had everything to make me believe they can make it in the business. The pins need some tweaks, for sure...but they were fun to play.

I will greatly be looking forward to the showcasing of them at TPF.

#6483 4 years ago

Fwiw - a clarification...

Quoted from zombieyeti:

* Zombie Yeti's version of "artwork on Raza was a hack job".
<removed>
So full disclosure - I didn’t listen to the podcast and was responding to the post(s) and messages stating what was said.
Robert reached out and clarified he was referring to the differing art styles and not my quality of work. I take his word and all is forgiven as you were....

#6484 4 years ago

A classic example of how so much rubbish gets posted in threads like this, chinese whispers, misrepresented information. Unreliable. More problems than it is worth. Lots of speculation.

The original post is still a "key post" and as yet has still not been updated to be representative.

More than reasonable for manufacturers and designers to give pinside a wide berth. Imho.

Of course it is unfortunate. As can happen though, the few spoil it for the many.

#6485 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I don't think you need to be any kind of expert to figure out when the economy goes in the tank again, so will the pinball industry.
It won't be like the 30s or 70s when coin op boomed, it will be more like the late 2000s when homeowners had bigger priorities than buying new machines for their game rooms.

So who’s the expert trying to predict the economy tanking? What exact day is it tanking?

Pinball Manufacturers, Economists, Scientists oh my

#6486 4 years ago

Sterns BOM will be wayyyy less than DR's

Unless DR is sourcing hardware from China as well ?

I guess local production lines will be DR's greatest challenge.

Hope DR can make it all work out with a reasonably priced, kick ass and quality product.

#6487 4 years ago

Here is my guess as to what their pricing and appearance business model looks like. All games will be offered in both a swappable playfield format and a designated cabinet format. The full cabinet versions will get the total art and pinball package, but the swappable will be a lower version of the game with only the playfield to keep down costs. You will also be able to buy LE models that go above and beyond with additions like topper, armor and unique code.

#6488 4 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

THE FLIPPER POWER WAS PURPOSELY DIALED DOWN!! THE FLIPPER STRENGTH WAS TURNED DOWN!!

Well - that turned out to be a load of crap

#6489 4 years ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Screw Bonanza I was hoping for Gunsmoke.

If this is turning into what old western tv theme pin you want , my vote will go for The Cisco Kid

IMG_20191121_233227 (resized).jpgIMG_20191121_233227 (resized).jpg
#6490 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Let's clear up some simple math here for the mathematically challenged!
"BOM" or Bill of materials is also known "COGS" or Cost of Goods Sold

I get your overall point, but BOM is not COGS. The BOM is the Bill of *Materials*. It is a component of COGS.

The point of my question was to “guestimate” what percentage of COGS the BOM was. If the BOM is an overwhelmingly large part, then it comes down to process and efficiencies in manufacturing, design, back office, etc.

Again, we’re all talking out of our asses here, but that’s Pinside’s stock-in-trade

PS: Hook ‘em!

#6491 4 years ago

Where does building a custom Deeproot theater fit into the COGS?

#6492 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Where does building a custom Deeproot theater fit into the COGS?

Ultimately, it gets amortized across their products sold. Same way every paper clip, computer, back office salary, etc does.

And I have to think their “Theater” is simply a room in their existing facility. We’re not talking Apple here. There’s not going to be hundreds of people coming to attend a DR launch event.

#6493 4 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Of the 62,000 registered Pinsiders I believe the number of “regulars” is a very small percentage

I was looking at pinside for years , to see information and reviews , until I saw something I had to respond to . So I paid my $5 and joined up . 99.9% of the population wouldn't know deeproot exists unless they're really into pinball and if they are , they would be on pinside . I don't do Facebook or Instagram or any other social media but I love pinside , whether you agree or disagree it's always fun to have a debate and to hear other people's opinions .

#6494 4 years ago
Quoted from zombieyeti:

Fwiw - a clarification...

I meant to post that as well when you first wrote, he meant "hack job" as in hacked together. In the interview he went in detail and discussed 2D and 3D art on screen and playfield. He made sure to point out that the art itself was fantastic, but that what is in 3D was not coherent with the 2D art.

But of course Pinside rather have you upset, hoping for more drama.

#6495 4 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

I meant to post that as well when you first wrote, he meant "hack job" as in hacked together. In the interview he went in detail and discussed 2D and 3D art on screen and playfield. But of course Pinside rather have you upset, hoping for more drama.

I disagree . After listening to the interview , I thought he was putting down " Z Y " but then realised what he had said and tried to backtrack .

#6496 4 years ago

Did anyone else listen to the Kaneda episode about Deeproot? He kept trashing the RAZA gameplay videos to his guest and didn’t know his guest was the one who made the videos haha...

#6497 4 years ago
Quoted from Patrunkenphat7:

Did anyone else listen to the Kaneda episode about Deeproot? He kept trashing the RAZA gameplay videos to his guest and didn’t know his guest was the one who made the videos haha...

Pinside not only can't read, it also can't hear.

#6498 4 years ago

Robert said the best thing he has done is leave the " sewer " of pinside and that must include all the people that gave him positive feedback , you can tell from his responses that he obviousy does still read this thread .

#6499 4 years ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Robert said the best thing he has done is leave the " sewer " of pinside and that must include all the people that gave him positive feedback , you can tell from his responses that he obviousy does still read this thread .

Maybe he's just doing a TMNT machine.

#6500 4 years ago
Quoted from Patrunkenphat7:

Did anyone else listen to the Kaneda episode about Deeproot? He kept trashing the RAZA gameplay videos to his guest and didn’t know his guest was the one who made the videos haha...

He knew I made them. I didn’t take it personally, the environment was not great for video capture. I do wish I’d brought streaming gear, but that’s not as simple as it sounds. For example, how do you get permission to stream from the conference and the attendees? Plus the internet situation in there was poor, which made even uploading cellphone footage difficult. I captured the videos in 4K but they ended up very low res when sent over iMessage. Even when I got back to the room and sent them to YouTube they only went over as 1080.

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