Evansvile, IN
Quoted from rai:I have not played it, but if it's as much a Stern pro, I don't see it selling too well.
This are going to be a lot more to purchase then a Stern pro!
(Topic ID: 203700)
Linked Games
Alice in Wonderland
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Celts
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Magic Girl
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
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Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from TreyBo69:The biggest thing deeproot screwed up was revealing this prototype the way they did.
Now we have crummy cell phone footage (no offense, thanks for sharing), a lot of people heavily dissecting a prototype, and the first impression for many in the core market has been made and it was underwhelming to say the least. Now it’s endless speculation about the price of a retail product based on an working prototype with poor messaging.
I get they needed feedback and some location testing, but there are better ways to do it.
Based on feedback at the show by those who played it, the response has been waaaay more positive than negative, top 100 players liked it even if it isn't finished, I think it's hard based on those videos for those NOT in attendance to get a Real feel , they are holding back on purpose that was made clear, TPF will scream volumes
Quoted from TreyBo69:The biggest thing deeproot screwed up was revealing this prototype the way they did.
Now we have crummy cell phone footage (no offense, thanks for sharing), a lot of people heavily dissecting a prototype, and the first impression for many in the core market has been made and it was underwhelming to say the least. Now it’s endless speculation about the price of a retail product based on an working prototype with poor messaging.
I get they needed feedback and some location testing, but there are better ways to do it.
My biggest question is why are they using badly printed filament 3D printed parts on their show machines? Sure, rapid prototype them in-house on filament printers, but use nicer, higher-res resin printers for the parts you're bringing to the show. None of the parts are that large, most of them could have been done on a $400 or less resin printer. Buy 5 or 6 of them for $2-3 grand and print a machine's worth of high-res 3D parts that look nice in half a day, then use the other half of the day to print backup parts in case some break. One day, 6 better printers, much better reveal first impression contribution would be made. Why didn't they do this?
Quoted from dc2010:Personally, I think they knock it out of the park at TPF
I sure as hell hope so... actually counting on it. I'd like something resembling the game I signed up for.
I wouldn't mind them tossing in the glue gun...
Quoted from PinMonk:My biggest question is why are they using badly printed filament 3D printed parts on their show machines? Sure, rapid prototype them in-house on filament printers, but use nicer, higher-res resin printers for the parts you're bringing to the show. None of the parts are that large, most of them could have been done on a $400 or less resin printer. Buy 5 or 6 of them for $2-3 grand and print a machine's worth of high-res 3D parts that look nice in half a day, then use the other half of the day to print backup parts in case some break. One day, 6 better printers, much better reveal first impression contribution would be made. Why didn't they do this?
I heard the game was a "prototype"?
Quoted from frankmac:So is WWE.
You mean WPT?
Quoted from Roostking:I heard the game was a "prototype"?
Of course. I don't expect 3D printed parts in the final machine, either. But they could easily have made much better-looking printed parts for their prototype that would have made a much better initial impression.
Quoted from PinMonk:Of course. I don't expect 3D printed parts in the final machine, either. But they could easily have made much better-looking printed parts for their prototype that would have made a much better initial impression.
Out of all the other issues I doubt if the 3D printer quality was even on most player's radars.
To zoom in on them like we see in the close-up pics you'd literally have to press your face against the glass.
I think your boob "complaint" (or observation) was more on target 
Quoted from PinMonk:Of course. I don't expect 3D printed parts in the final machine, either. But they could easily have made much better-looking printed parts for their prototype that would have made a much better initial impression.
I think they are trying to press their point about current sub standard, or poor value, offerings in the world of NIB pinball.... and taking it to the next level.... whilst still managing to bring out a machine people enjoyed playing.
I think the "saucer on a spring" will not be in a production version, and is simply paying homage to "Tie Fighter On A Spring"-gate. 
It seems they excelled at their goals, generally speaking.
Quoted from razorsedge:I think the "saucer on a spring" will not be in a production version, and is simply paying homage to "Tie Fighter On A Spring"-gate.
Well you have a more charitable outlook on that trinket than I did. But I like that... I can't help feeling positive about the whole thing myself. Of course it may be these pills I've been taking.
It would be cool if they could just have the saucer float with a magnet like the desktop floating globes and saucers.
Yeah it must be the pills
----
Quoted from Manic:Out of all the other issues I doubt if the 3D printer quality was even on most player's radars.
To zoom in on them like we see in the close-up pics you'd literally have to press your face against the glass.
I think your boob "complaint" (or observation) was more on target
Why can't we have both?
My point was the amount of effort to cast those with a cheap resin printer in MUCH higher resolution is not a whole lot more than what they expended to make them look crappy with a filament printer. Given both paths and the importance of the prototype reveal, why not put your best foot forward for very little money and not much more effort?
That said, I like many of the whimsical touches shown, and look forward to being able to play it to form an opinion about it in person.
Quoted from PinMonk:Why can't we have both?
My point was the amount of effort to cast those with a cheap resin printer in MUCH higher resolution is not a whole lot more than what they expended to make them look crappy with a filament printer. Given both paths and the importance of the prototype reveal, why not put your best foot forward for very little money and not much more effort?
That said, I like many of the whimsical touches shown, and look forward to being able to play it to form an opinion about it in person.
I suspect he was going for, and trying to Emphasise "Cheap/sub standard"... like as a Goal! .... deliberately making things as cheap and crappy as posible, whilst still bringing an enjoyable playable game.
As he said "on par with other manufacturers curent offerings" ... I mean, I think you'll find they could have had schmick 3D prints, but that would not fit with the "cheap/poor value" theme he was aiming for as a Goal.
I think this is meant to be not just a prototype, but a Statement.... and shot across the bow of the likes of stern .... a bit of a cocky "dig" of sorts, perhaps. But all the while keeping the big cards concealed, ready to blow the industry wide open in march. If they come out with JJP level for 5k it is not just stern that will be in panic mode, but JJP as well.
Taking such a viewpoint kinda makes a whole lotta crap make a whole lot more sense, and can not help being excited about what this could all become.
Still no sense in holding our breaths, of course! Lol
I sense a price point between 4990 and 5490... for the Fully Featured Final Production RAZA "PREMIUM" (with all the bells whistes extra ramp feeds and toys that this "pro" was missing).
Quoted from Manic:Well you have a more charitable outlook on that trinket than I did. But I like that... I can't help feeling positive about the whole thing myself. Of course it may be these pills I've been taking.
It would be cool if they could just have the saucer float with a magnet like the desktop floating globes and saucers.
Yeah it must be the pills
----
I think the saucer on a spring is Rubbish. Just as with the tie fighter. But I see it as I think RM intends, as a placeholder, and showing how any tom, dick or harry can produce $#!t! ....
"Here it is, $#!+ on purpose, for our first prototype 'pro'! ... do you like it?"
The answer from players seemed to be a cautious "yes".
And they are deliberately stripping it out and trying to make it bare bones, but still fun. I think they have been successful at that mission.
The big question is.... does what is "under wraps" actually exist? ..... well, I am beginning to think it just might actually exist.... all that has been hyped about...
Bermuda Triangle
Quoted from jorro:JPoop
Next please
Bring the other four days of pinball!
4+2=5 ... ?? 
Goes with the pinside theme I guess, not making much sense.... still plenty of people with no clue needing to do alot of reading, it seems.
You've lost me Pmsl
Kamloops, BC
Quoted from zaphX:Pinside logic:
“That guy is a novice double flipper!!”
<novice player makes the steep ramp shot>
“The ramp is unmakeable and a complete design flaw”
From reading the thread, that seems pretty damn spot on! ... Gold!
... along with the gem from DSnadine on pinside logic....
Poster: There's going to be three green triangles!
Reply: Fuken Awesome!!! ... What shape and colour will they be? ... and how many??
Quoted from Fulltilt:I sure as hell hope so... actually counting on it. I'd like something resembling the game I signed up for.
I wouldn't mind them tossing in the glue gun...
[quoted image]
Over 2 years for this 
Why would the flipper power be reduced ?
Where is Ben Heck ???
Quoted from RA77:Over 2 years for this
Why would the flipper power be reduced ?
Where is Ben Heck ???
Maybe to simulate the gameplay of a game that's been thrashed for 2000 plays?
But who knows really...
Quoted from PinMonk:$2-3 grand and print a machine's worth of high-res 3D parts that look nice
Quoted from razorsedge:I suspect he was going for, and trying to Emphasise "Cheap/sub standard"... like as a Goal! .... deliberately making things as cheap and crappy as posible
If they couldn't be bothered putting new Flipper rubbers on for it's maiden reveal why would they bother with anything else .
If they were trying to make it look as cheap and crappy as possible they succeeded .
Why wouldn't they do a short promo video highlighting it's features like Zack did for Wonka and have Steve Bowen there demonstrating it and explaining the rules , it would have gone a long way to improving people's first impressions . Presentation is everything .
Quoted from PinMonk:My point was the amount of effort to cast those with a cheap resin printer in MUCH higher resolution is not a whole lot more than what they expended to make them look crappy with a filament printer. Given both paths and the importance of the prototype reveal, why not put your best foot forward for very little money and not much more effort?
I sorta thought the same thing, but I also thought about the fact that resin printers "can" take much longer to print (not ideal during crunch time), plus resin printers are nasty to deal with compared to FDM. Of course that's not to say someone couldn't email the file to an outside printing service. Hell there's a ton of companies that will not only print it, but sand it and paint it and make it look like a production part (I've done it for work).
Quoted from toyotaboy:the fact that resin printers "can" take much longer to print (not ideal during crunch time),
Longer than a couple of years ?
Wait a minute!!!! The RAZA game in the video was a prototype????? Oh man, how could I have been so foolish??? It makes total sense now, they probably left out like 50% of the game on that prototype, so they could test it at a later date. I would like to take this time to take back every negative thing I have ever said about JJP. I had no idea the RAZA shown was a prototype??
Quoted from thedarkknight77:Wait a minute!!!! The RAZA game in the video was a prototype????? Oh man, how could I have been so foolish??? It makes total sense now, they probably left out like 50% of the game on that prototype, so they could test it at a later date. I would like to take this time to take back every negative thing I have ever said about JJP. I had no idea the RAZA shown was a prototype??
Apparently it is a prototype , once it's in the new cabinet has new art and the ball makes it up the ramp it's going to be the best pin ever 
Why wasn't it a stronger reveal? According to DR, they have ridiculously deep pockets. Ridiculously deep pockets and this is your first pinball reveal to the world? I'm sensing not-so-deep pockets and a whole lot of bluster/fingers crossed that they make it.
Some ideas on marketing concerns, when you are trying to solicit sales from an extremely discriminating audience, in an oversaturated/perhaps peaked market:
1. It had better be ready to come off the line in mass production, like a Stern that's just been revealed/teased...not within the better part of a year when it's ancient history (Oktoberfest, anyone?).
2. This WAS your reveal. Prototype, or not. We are now waiting for the Next Perfect Magic Machine.
3. The market is oversaturated. NIB buyers are slowing down. That crazy arc of excitement from the past few years has perhaps peaked. NIB buyers are running out of money, room and perhaps unwilling to sell that Fish Tales like we used to...to purchase yet another untested NIB. (Heck...that old FT was more fun than the Munsters that replaced it!). And PF/quality concerns. NIB sales are slowing.
4. In 2020, when you "re-reveal", you will be heading into the headwinds of: Stern: Stranger Things(!); Led Zep(!) and other desirable, licenced themed pins that will be immediately released. Guns 'n Roses/JJP/Eric M. Spooky: Scotty D's HH Party. Possibly American will figure out how to produce a killer machine? And God knows what else?? (the latest, greatest thing)...probably something awesome, like that Canadian dude's Nightmare Before Christmas produced by Chicago Gaming with artwork by Chris Franchi? You never know what you will be up against in this market and the competition is getting beyond fierce.
Just sayin...for a company who claims they have insanely deep pockets and wants to compete with the Big Boys, this was a weak "reveal".
Doesn't mean it won't be a good, fun game. Doesn't even mean I'm not curious and might even purchase one.
Well, I truly hope that DR does not disappoint me again and not show up at TPF. I went this year for the '5 days of DR' and as we all know, they stood us up. I just booked my non refundable flights and hotel for 2020's TPF believing again that DR will be there with a RAZA and who knows what else. Come on DR, let's 'git er done'! I got my check book ready and I hope DR is too.
I was thinking that they might be creating intentional variation between the machines to solicit feedback in multiple scenarios. Ones in a bright location, the other is in a darker location. One has weak flippers, the other has stronger ones.
Just a thought.
Well I couldn't help but have a bit of a play with what could possibly be added without really changing the layout, and considering some things said about the code:
Steven Bowden - TWIP interview:
"However, connected to this is an X-story “tower” (not revealing how large “X” is) of other, more focused activities to accomplish where you can go deeper into the story… . You can have lots of fun hanging out in the base areas of the Adventureland, but what could be at the top of this hypothetical tower?"
So I'm guessing this somehow would tie to a "Tower Mech", a physical location on the playfield, and the 4 inserts above flippers. Also something pretty Suss!! ... the Total lack of inserts right between the slings, perfectly sized for a display?. That "NED" is certainly going to need to be animated at least, and maybe some interactivity or additional mech as well.
Here's my theoretical "premium RAZA" by covering a pic in grafiti lol
Paris
Quoted from razorsedge:Well I couldn't help but have a bit of a play with what could possibly be added without really changing the layout, and considering some things said about the code:
Steven Bowden - TWIP interview:
"However, connected to this is an X-story “tower” (not revealing how large “X” is) of other, more focused activities to accomplish where you can go deeper into the story… . You can have lots of fun hanging out in the base areas of the Adventureland, but what could be at the top of this hypothetical tower?"
So I'm guessing this somehow would tie to a "Tower Mech", a physical location on the playfield, and the 4 inserts above flippers. Also something pretty Suss!! ... the Total lack of inserts right between the slings, perfectly sized for a display?. That "NED" is certainly going to need to be animated at least, and maybe some interactivity or additional mech as well.
Here's my theoretical "premium RAZA" by covering a pic in grafiti lol
[quoted image]
great. It seems like we'll have 4 months of ideas of potential missing reveals!
I feel like extra display and animated tech are good leads as well.
(At lease now we have a pin to discuss... )
Quoted from frankmac:Time for a short YouTube PYT break.
Glad somebody caught this
Quoted from razorsedge:Maybe to simulate the gameplay of a game that's been thrashed for 2000 plays?
But who knows really...
I am not sure what our exact science is on plungers and flipper mechanics failing but 2000 plays should not be the gauge for failure rate. We have sites that go through 2000 plays in less than one month. If the game breaks down that quickly then I feel there is a QC issue. All manufacturers of late have had issues but I feel this had to be made aware to the manufacturer and it should have been corrected. Save if the unit has unique flipper mechs this is easily solved.
Quoted from razorsedge:Well I couldn't help but have a bit of a play with what could possibly be added without really changing the layout, and considering some things said about the code:
Steven Bowden - TWIP interview:
"However, connected to this is an X-story “tower” (not revealing how large “X” is) of other, more focused activities to accomplish where you can go deeper into the story… . You can have lots of fun hanging out in the base areas of the Adventureland, but what could be at the top of this hypothetical tower?"
So I'm guessing this somehow would tie to a "Tower Mech", a physical location on the playfield, and the 4 inserts above flippers. Also something pretty Suss!! ... the Total lack of inserts right between the slings, perfectly sized for a display?. That "NED" is certainly going to need to be animated at least, and maybe some interactivity or additional mech as well.
Here's my theoretical "premium RAZA" by covering a pic in grafiti lol
[quoted image]
Pretty good mockup you've deduced so far and am reposting it as is. I suspect the ramp will incorporate a yet to be seen diverter mech allowing for player-controlled ball exit to left or right return ramps.
If dr builds it as you've drawn, puts in all additional planned enhancements and charges no more than $5k, I am 100% in. Robert's goal is to design and build high value-to-cost pinball machines. That would be enough to get me onboard the deeproot train. Choo Choo !!
Razza_v3.png
IT'S A PROTOTYPE DAMMIT!!!
re earlier comment: 2000 plays is indeed nothing which is why people are so justifiably annoyed their Stern coil stops are breaking at 2000 plays.
Quoted from CafeOne:You guys are getting 2000 plays outta Stern coil stops!?! 2 of them on my JP Pro fell apart after 300 games.
Yeah I heard they had a bad batch of those recently
The game looks rather cheap and bare in regards to what's on the playfield, same with the 3D printed toys versus 3D molded toys. Deeproot has been talking for months about how they can lower the cost of their games...I now see why. Hoping the production version looks better and offers more.
#Where's The Toys?
Quoted from PanzerFreak:The game looks rather cheap and bare in regards to what's on the playfield, same with the 3D printed toys versus 3D molded toys. Deeproot has been talking for months about how they can lower the cost of their games...I now see why. Hoping the production version looks better and offers more.
After years of so much bragging and bluster, and all of Jpop's scamming, and all the promises and delays, what DR has shown is that they can make a pinball design somewhere above Cosmic Carnival but below Oktoberfest. People are now looking to memory-hole DR's history, but this is really the story about how pinball is much harder than blowhards think it is.....if only this had been a nice surprise out of nowhere, instead of a long-delayed and over-hyped prototype.
Their real problem is that a stellar title (Jurassic Park) has dropped from a new designer and it makes the old design tropes of Jpop seem a bit meh. If RAZA had come out around the time GotG happened, that's a window where the RAZA prototype might have been more competitive...
Quoted from m00nmuppet:After years of so much bragging and bluster, and all of Jpop's scamming, and all the promises and delays, what DR has shown is that they can make a pinball design somewhere above Cosmic Carnival but below Oktoberfest. People are now looking to memory-hole DR's history, but this is really the story about how pinball is much harder than blowhards think it is.....
very well said.
Quoted from yaksplat:The lack of reading comprehension skills here is epic.
ITS A PROTOTYPE!!!!!
Like with most prototypes, they are sure to become more valuable and desirable than the regular production games. In a few years we can marvel at the slight differences and tell those that ended up with them how lucky they are.
Quoted from o-din:Like with most prototypes, they are sure to become more valuable and desirable than the regular production games. In a few years we can marvel at the slight differences and tell those that ended up with them how lucky they are.
I think people are expecting the production model to be wildly different than the PROTOTYPE.
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