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@ noitbe1 - I watched the video STDM posted again. Shortened up my post on impression from the videos. Actually the STDM video isn't that horrible. The second video posted by Hardy is worse.

You are correct hard to tell how it plays without actually being there.

But not seeing much for a couple years of work on something that was already designed previously. It just doesn't look like an effort that matches the time and rhetoric we have heard.

Quoted from ZMeny:
I’m not there or I’d be happy to film the heck out of it for everyone

Zach - your video posted really isn't that bad. Actually thought it was better than the footage Hardy posted. Nice you got something up on the interweb to view. Your friend made a good effort. We get an idea what the game looks like and see a little play.

Quoted from Lermods:
not understanding why the ball is dropping in front of the left sling instead of the inlane, what benefit does that provide? One of the benefits of hitting a ramp is to score the inlane shot. Also, how much wear is that area going to see with no ability to protect it like a cliffy switch protector would. will be kind of an eyesore when it's worn to wood like you see with most switch slots over time.
looks like a cool game, but lots of unknowns right now.

I like the change in return. I think it will make for more challenge instead of the everyday same ole. We're kinda spoiled when everything is done for us.

Quoted from noitbe1:
Peolple are always complainig about everything. At least now we have a game to look at and it looks great. No one still knows really how it plays but the bashing already started.
If you can no longer feel joy regarding new project maybe some here should change hobbies.

Does not matter what the hobby is people like to winge

Quoted from noitbe1:
Peolple are always complainig about everything. At least now we have a game to look at and it looks great. No one still knows really how it plays but the bashing already started.
If you can no longer feel joy regarding new project maybe some here should change hobbies.

Looks great? Seriously? People seem to be in the denial phase still.

Be honest. This looks bad. Really bad.

It is also entirely consistent with JPop's 'work' since the birth of Zidware.

The danger here is not that this sucks. It looks like it will. It's that the whole company is set up to succeed or fail around JPop's shit, and that the other designers end up as some kind of marginalised tech support team for him, who get ignored anyway, and whose own designs suffer as a result.

With 6-8 months to go until their supposedly final deadline for this machine or their product launch(es), I hope Mueller and the others have their eye on the ball, and are not fixated solely on JPop and Zidware's mess that he chose to involve them in.

With Robert sounding like he regretted his involvement in the shit show now, in that interview, hopefully that is the case, and he will make sure that everyone else can carry the company and product line.

I was part of the groan launch of Dialed In and changed my tune when I actually played it, becoming a buyer. So I'll be the first to admit seeing a game online isn't the best way to experience it.

Like Dialed In, this one had a lot of hype behind it, so it was imperative to launch properly. They can claim all day long this isn't their launch, but that doesn't make a difference to the thousands of hardcore pinheads who will experience the game the first time this way.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
So they took this game to a show to get feedback ?
Looking at the videos etc I think feedback isn't going to be good. They may have folks tell them to start over. Maybe that was the plan all along.
If they say they have to start over they can fart around for a couple more years and still produce zero. Something isn't right with the big picture.
Where did they set up in the show ? Whats with the hotel chairs jammed around the machine ? If you can't set up a proper booth to showcase your product, what are you doing back at the shop.
Doesn't look very promising for a game that has had a couple years work off a previous design. Not a great presentation.

I doubt DR will be very interested in what myself and other armchair pinside reviewers will post from some short, questionable, shaky mobile phone vids. Why would they be? , they are generally Unreliable "reviews".... I'd say they are more so there to get feedback from Actual Players, and the machine. Testing. Not "virtual" spectator reviews. I am sure the reviews from each place (pinside/real world) would vary quite a bit, one way or another. One person here posting played it, they said the lighting made the video colours all screwed up, and the game was fun and looked Great in real life, but nobody pays attention. Or selective reading.

What is the odd mindset that they are there trying to "showcase a product"? .... no, that is in March mate. This is not the product, remember? . They just have them sitting there on the sidelines for people to play, low key. Why would they be keen to provide Widespread coverage of them testing their Prototype, with the bugs and all that naturally come with this phase of the final product development?

I'm sure there will be booths, fanfare, promotion, good videos (by DR), and production games to inspect...... before or during the TPF in March. Of Production games. When it Matters.

The feedback gathered from real players visiting Houston will be quite valuable for finishing the game off well, unlike the armchair feedback from pinside.

My one request for Houston expo was for someone
to get a fucking tripod and camera, setup right in front of the damn game and let an above average player play for 10 minutes!
Naw...
Just misc angles from cellphones...
Huuuuuuge Debut turned into a test location for 2 days and random video shots...
Obviously the pinball revolution won't be televised!
P.s...
Oh well...

Quoted from frolic:
I was part of the groan launch of Dialed In and changed my tune when I actually played it, becoming a buyer. So I'll be the first to admit seeing a game online isn't the best way to experience it.
Like Dialed In, this one had a lot of hype behind it, so it was imperative to launch properly. They can claim all day long this isn't their launch, but that doesn't make a difference to the thousands of hardcore pinheads who will experience the game the first time this way.

People were reeeeing about the phone, title and dad jeans for DI. It was clearly packed with stuff, complete, and shot really well from first showing. This is very different. You have a disfunctional early proto full of placeholders that looks really bricky and Zidwarey.

Quoted from DS_Nadine:
Come on, that's very, very low...

Not as low as Deep Root's low low prices .

Quoted from razorsedge:
The feedback gathered from real players visiting Houston will be quite valuable for finishing the game off well, unlike the armchair feedback from pinside.

No real pinball company has ever required "real player" data from pinball shows while in development phase to complete a pinball machine. In house data has been just enough historically. Test locations are mostly an afterthought. Most prospective buyers for Deeproot games are on pinside. Pinside opinions matter alot. Also, its not armchairing anything, we must be impressed, we must get something to inspire us to devert money from many other used and new pinball buying options. Pinside is free data mining from its core customer base, so they're welcome for the intel from here hahaha.

Quoted from HighProtein:
No pinball company has ever required "real player" data from pinball shows while in development phase to complete a pinball machine. In house data has been just enough historically.

Er, you must be meaning 'recently', as two of my locations back in the 90's were test locations for Bally/Midway. And we gave them data.

You are absolutely correct razorsedge. - I'm just making the observation they will get feedback at the show and I don't think it's going to be super positive. I would still say though this is their product and they are showcasing it to some degree .. This is a couple years effort piled on top of work that was done previously by jpop. They can call this unveiling what they want. They will get their real world testing and numbers. Let's see what they do with it.

Quoted from HighProtein:
My one request for Houston expo was for someone
to get a fucking tripod and camera, setup right in front of the damn game and let an above average player play for 10 minutes!
Naw...
Just misc angles from cellphones...
Huuuuuuge Debut turned into a test location for 2 days and random video shots...
Obviously the pinball revolution won't be televised!
P.s...
Oh well...

Let's be fair. It was never supposed to be a HUGE debut... they repeatedly said it was indeed for testing and "player input". Hopefully they learned something from this and it helps the final product. I'm disappointed there wasn't any videos of decent players on it but what can ya do?

The yellow-green light from the show bathing the PF sure didn't do it any favors either.

JJP had Hobbits, DIs and PotCs on location for months getting feedback before they went to production, too.

But as Keith Johnson alluded to on Twitter, I'm not sure DR are going to get much useful testing data from these.

Quoted from HighProtein:
No real pinball company has ever required "real player" data from pinball shows while in development phase to complete a pinball machine. In house data has been just enough historically. Test locations are mostly an afterthought. Most prospective buyers for Deeproot games are on pinside. Pinside opinions matter alot. Also, its not armchairing anything, we must be impressed, we must get something to inspire us to devert money from many other used and new pinball buying options. Pinside is free data mining from its core customer base, so they're welcome for the intel from here hahaha.

Oh, really? .... wtf did B/W bother to produce runs of "prototype games" full of bugs to send out to selected locations prior to final production machines being produced?

They did not have, or need, pinside. Neither does Deeproot.

Most prospective DR buyers are Not on pinside, according to DR. Sorry.

So No, pinside opinions (at this proto stage) do not matter much, if at all.

Pinside... is data mining of mostly misguided rubbish assumptions, looking through the thread. They would be wise not to waste their time I would think.

Quoted from rubberducks:
JJP had Hobbits, DIs and PotCs on location for months getting feedback before they went to production, too.
But as Keith Johnson alluded to on Twitter, I'm not sure DR are going to get much useful testing data from these.

Yes - I wonder how much actual data they collect at a show and how useful it is. Maybe what they are really interested in is firsthand reaction to what they have. A lot of stuff in pinball can't be quantified - could be that stuff is what is being observed. Question is Will they do anything with what they learn.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
Yes - I wonder how much actual data they collect at a show and how useful it is. Maybe what they are really interested in is firsthand reaction to what they have. A lot of stuff in pinball can't be quantified - could be that stuff is what is being observed. Question is Will they do anything with what they learn.

I think it's more the fact that this is stuffed with placeholders and things that clearly have major ongoing development efforts. They know they're going to revise it and are doing. It's already obsolete. So even if they collect a load of data, what use is it? If they're going to make their deadlines, the game will be totally different in a month.

Quoted from rubberducks:
Looks great? Seriously? People seem to be in the denial phase still.
Be honest. This looks bad. Really bad.

I still have the impression that you're either looking at a different game, don't get what "prototye, not final cab artwork etc." means or JPop raped your great grandmother and you have a personal vendetta here.

I really tried to be nice and you have all the right to dislike the game, still what you're doing is nothing short of ridiculous bashing.

Noone is saying this game is "great", because we can't possibly say how it'll play, but that also goes for the opposite.

And if you think the game is shit:
Great. You made that clear.
So, bye now!

Quoted from NoQuarters:
Yes - I wonder how much actual data they collect at a show and how useful it is. Maybe what they are really interested in is firsthand reaction to what they have. A lot of stuff in pinball can't be quantified - could be that stuff is what is being observed. Question is Will they do anything with what they learn.

As RM stated, a variety of conditions that can not be tested "in house" ... shipping/transport, hundereds of consecutive plays by "green" players, etc. ... as well as the invaluable random public real world feedback/reaction (not pinside).

Quoted from razorsedge:
As RM stated, a variety of conditions that can not be tested "in house" ... shipping/transport, hundereds of consecutive plays by "green" players, etc. ... as well as the invaluable random public real world feedback/reaction (not pinside).

I would agree that having green players play a game will help with highlighting possible issues. I have worked on games that I felt played great and had no issues, and then one of my kids or a non-skilled player hops on it and makes the ball do things that us more savvy players wouldn't even attempt to shoot. Then I need to bust out the tool box again. A skilled/veteran player will play naturally better than someone that 'plays every once in a while'.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
You are absolutely correct razorsedge. - I'm just making the observation they will get feedback at the show and I don't think it's going to be super positive. I would still say though this is their product and they are showcasing it to some degree .. This is a couple years effort piled on top of work that was done previously by jpop. They can call this unveiling what they want. They will get their real world testing and numbers. Let's see what they do with it.

You're right, it is showing Something of the "product", to a degree. But it is Not the final product hence wisely not pushing to Showcase it. I guess they want it to be Clear that this is Not what you will get as a Production Game. Makes sense when you need to test, but want it to be clearly Not a "release" . It is what is is, a restricted public "showing" or Test of their prototype.

A bit the other way, I'd say they want what the few internet people Do see to be limited, and an Obvious Prototype, hence the smart move of having no real art.... just the indelable image of those ghastly placeholders!

Things can only get better...

Can someone please post a link to a video where someone actually completes a ramp shot? Every video I've seen has been brick city. Game looks awesome but it doesn't look like the layout is any fun to shoot at least yet.

I spent most of my time at the show playing RAZA. I really like it and I’m excited about it.

I’ll go into more detail later, but here’s the best quality video I was able to get. It was right when the show opened, so it wasn’t very loud yet. You can hear the game sounds.

Don’t beat up on anyone’s videos. One machine was under a super bright light, the other was super dark. Neither was easy to shoot, especially if the person playing was not someone you know. You wanted to give them space.

I do wish I’d had my streaming rig for this.

The ramp shot is not bricky, in fact it’s pretty easy to make. It takes a good firm shot to make it around the corkscrew and up the “hill” which feels great when you do! If you don’t make it up the hill, it rolls back down and drops out of a hole in the center area. This is accompanied by an amusing roller coaster fail animation.

Opinion from someone actually here at the event: The game isn’t perfect, but it is far and away the pin I played the most. It has that “one more game” feel in spades.

The shots aren’t in your typical places, so it definitely takes time to find them. But, I would not call it “bricky” nor compare it to that infamous magician pin.

Typical rule applies: Play it before forming a deep opinion. It’s too hard to convey the feel of a pin via videos, even professional ones.

Quoted from Zablon:
Peoples opinions differ. I do not think copy/pasting movie videos on a pinball machine is ground breaking or necessary by any stretch of the imagination...in fact I think it lacks imagination. Telling people to look away from the ball??? No. Just no.

Just my opinion but if they're doing a pin based on a movie or TV series I want to see clips from the movie or TV show . To me a great pinball is a whole audio-visual , physical package . If the Hobbit and Batman didn't have such well-integrated video clips they wouldn't be rated as high as they are . If pinball is just hitting a ball with flippers , why bother with any dmd , TV screen , why bother having a shaking motor or RGB lighting or a integrated topper or a shaker motor all these things add up to a better Pinball experience .

I haven't seen that ramp shot being successfully made yet either.

Quoted from TheCapn:
I haven't seen that ramp shot being successfully made yet either.

I don’t think I got it on video but I saw it made quite a bit, and made it myself quite a bit. It was not a frustrating or disappointing shot.

Quoted from zaphX:
One machine was under a super bright light, the other was super dark. Neither was easy to shoot, especially if the person playing was not someone you know. You wanted to give them space.
I do wish I’d had my streaming rig for this.

That was one of my main pieces of feedback: The GI was way too dim. There was plenty of lights, so fixable by simply turning them up.

Quoted from Coyote:
Er, you must be meaning 'recently', as two of my locations back in the 90's were test locations for Bally/Midway. And we gave them data.

What locations were they? I am interested as I love the history of pinball and we are close in location. We operate more than half the state of WV.

Quoted from rubberducks:
Looks great? Seriously? People seem to be in the denial phase still.
Be honest. This looks bad. Really bad.

Then you probably don't want to buy one.

Quoted from zaphX:
I don’t think I got it on video but I saw it made quite a bit, and made it myself quite a bit. It was not a frustrating or disappointing shot.

I would liken it to the ramps on MM. it’s steep, so takes a good hit to make it up there. I would say I averaged about 30% success. Tended to hit multiple in the same game, then might not make any in the next. All about getting that groove and hitting it on the fly. It was pretty hard to do from a trap.

Quoted from screaminr:
Just my opinion but if they're doing a pin based on a movie or TV series I want to see clips from the movie or TV show . To me a great pinball is a whole audio-visual , physical package . If the Hobbit and Batman didn't have such well-integrated video clips they wouldn't be rated as high as they are . If pinball is just hitting a ball with flippers , why bother with any dmd , TV screen , why bother having a shaking motor or RGB lighting or a integrated topper or a shaker motor all these things add up to a better Pinball experience .

I rekon the "video scenes" will do just fine placed on the centre third of their display in the correct aspect ratio. The display is both tall enough, and hi res enough, to well provide all that is ever needed for pinball movie cut scenes. Well for me at least anyway.

There are fantastic games with displays that use a mere 4096 orange shaded dots, and far smaller display size... which have amazing entertaining display animations/scenes.

If hobbit is only good because of the 27" movie on the backbox, then I guess it mustn't be a very good pinball game? ... or maybe could go to the movies?

Thank you DR for having a decent size backglass area!!!

Quoted from cjmjmm2006:
What locations were they? I am interested as I love the history of pinball and we are close in location. We operate more than half the state of WV.

This was back in the 90's, down in Georgia.
Challenges Arcades (both locations at North Point Mall in Alpharetta and Duluth) and Tokens FFC in Acworth, GA.

We were to send them weekly earnings reports, any tech issues that occurred. We weren't allowed to update ROMs unless they told us it was okay. On some games (like WCS, Carnevil) they would send a rep down to go and pull some readings or make changes.

Quoted from zaphX:
The ramp shot is not bricky, in fact it’s pretty easy to make. It takes a good firm shot to make it around the corkscrew and up the “hill” which feels great when you do! If you don’t make it up the hill, it rolls back down and drops out of a hole in the center area. This is accompanied by an amusing roller coaster fail animation.

It seems to be like the MM right ramp: need a strong shot. After, it’s sastisfying

Quoted from Coyote:
This was back in the 90's, down in Georgia.
Challenges Arcades (both locations at North Point Mall in Alpharetta and Duluth) and Tokens FFC in Acworth, GA.
We were to send them weekly earnings reports, any tech issues that occurred. We weren't allowed to update ROMs unless they told us it was okay. On some games (like WCS, Carnevil) they would send a rep down to go and pull some readings or make changes.

On vids we sent them updates. We had a full arcade redemption center at the Pittsburgh International Airport. I don't remember them ever asking for anything where they were on site for pinball but on MK, Carnevil, Area 51 and Cruis'n they certainly asked for data. If I can find it, we still have forms that they sent with the units to specify data on cruis'n based on time of day. So they wanted data prior to 5 pm and then data post 5 pm.

Alright so I got to spend some time on it. I’d like to think I have a little skill to me as I won the state championship in Oklahoma and was ranked in the top 40 on the stern circuit for most of the season. These are my thoughts and my thoughts only, I don’t have a horse in this race and hope every pinball that comes out is successful.

The game is prototype for sure. I can’t speak for coding (very early stages) or artwork as I believe it’s not final. Many of the shots weren’t doing anything or were very buggy which was expected. What I can speak to is playfield design and how the shots were.

The right ramp has a feature with 3/4 of the middle of it missing completely. If you don’t hit this ramp solid, it won’t make it around the ramp without the speed. It’ll simply fall back to the playfield.

The skill shot can actually go to the outlane, similar to Congo. The kickback then sent it back up to an area that is like a “snake feed” that goes back to the playfield.

There is a magna save. It’s more similar to Pharaoh’s magna save and the button is on the right side of the cabinet. It’s in such a place that you won’t accidentally hit it.

One of the main multiball features is started by hitting a roving target in the back. It was supposed to spell zombie and then start a multiball we believe, but the software never allowed for that feature to start.

Alright so, how does it shoot? Honestly after about 20 minutes, I went from being really excited to play it to an uh-oh feeling. The game plays very slow.

The orbits were moderate to hit. The shots seemed earlier on the flippers than expected. Both shots seemed to feed back to the opposite flipper, though it hung up a couple of times.

The ramps were another story. We kept count. I was 0 for 12 getting the ball successfully up the ride the coasters ramp (right ramp). Not 0 for 12 misses, that’s how many rejects I had from a trap. Either the flippers weren’t strong enough or that shot is only an on the fly shot. Across 4 players we were 0 for 20. I’ll try the other pin today and see if that was just a fluke.

The dare devil cycle shot was reject city. We’d get clean hits, the bottom would kinda lift up and the ball would just come back to the flippers. Think of the Death Star shot on Star Wars, but without the speed and it being closer to you.

The atomic shop shot reminded me of the orb shot on GOTG. It was a fairly safe return. I think a ball was supposed to lock behind it, but when I hit it nothing happened.

The spinning Oozie shot really killed any flow of the game for me. The ball seemed to spend more time being deflected off of it and trickle back to flippers. We hit it a few times to spin it, but the shot itself wasn’t satisfying and seemed to be more of a flow killer.

I’m going to play it some more today and try out the other prototype they brought. I’ll probably have some more thoughts on it later today. As of right now I’m underwhelmed by the gameplay itself. Compared to JP and Wonka on shot flow or just design, it’s not in the same ball park. If you love these games, then I’d probably advised to dial down expectations when stepping up to RAZA. Shots on this aren’t necessarily tight as it is that the geometry just makes the game play ok. When you do brick a shot (and it’ll happen more often then not) it didn’t feel like you were going to be punished for it.

I’m sure the entire package (art/sound) will come together come March. I wish Deeproot the best and hope they can back up everything that has been touted for the past couple of years. I really want my expectations to be matched and for this to be a kick ass pin. At this point though, with how it actually plays, it was underwhelming.

Quoted from cjmjmm2006:
On vids we sent them updates. We had a full arcade redemption center at the Pittsburgh International Airport. I don't remember them ever asking for anything where they were on site for pinball but on MK, Carnevil, Area 51 and Cruis'n they certainly asked for data. If I can find it, we still have forms that they sent with the units to specify data on cruis'n based on time of day. So they wanted data prior to 5 pm and then data post 5 pm.

Yup! I don't have any of those forms now. At Tokens, we had Carnevil and .. a few other games. (I'm not a video person, can't remember which ones. Perhaps an advanced Hydro Thunder?) For Challenges, this was earlier in the decade - my TZ was a test game at this location, as well as WCS, Corvette, TOTAN, CV. At Challenges, they wanted weekend vs weekday reports. Tokens (the FFC) they wanted time of day loike you mentioned.

Quoted from Potatoloco:
Alright so I got to spend some time on it. I’d like to think I have a little skill to me as I won the state championship in Oklahoma and was ranked in the top 40 on the stern circuit for most of the season. These are my thoughts and my thoughts only, I don’t have a horse in this race and hope every pinball that comes out is successful.
The game is prototype for sure. I can’t speak for coding (very early stages) or artwork as I believe it’s not final. Many of the shots weren’t doing anything or were very buggy which was expected. What I can speak to is playfield design and how the shots were.
The right ramp has a feature with 3/4 of the middle of it missing completely. If you don’t hit this ramp solid, it won’t make it around the ramp without the speed. It’ll simply fall back to the playfield.
The skill shot can actually go to the outlane, similar to Congo. The kickback then sent it back up to an area that is like a “snake feed” that goes back to the playfield.
There is a magna save. It’s more similar to Pharaoh’s magna save and the button is on the right side of the cabinet. It’s in such a place that you won’t accidentally hit it.
One of the main multiball features is started by hitting a roving target in the back. It was supposed to spell zombie and then start a multiball we believe, but the software never allowed for that feature to start.
Alright so, how does it shoot? Honestly after about 20 minutes, I went from being really excited to play it to an uh-oh feeling. The game plays very slow.
The orbits were moderate to hit. The shots seemed earlier on the flippers than expected. Both shots seemed to feed back to the opposite flipper, though it hung up a couple of times.
The ramps were another story. We kept count. I was 0 for 12 getting the ball successfully up the ride the coasters ramp (right ramp). Not 0 for 12 misses, that’s how many rejects I had from a trap. Either the flippers weren’t strong enough or that shot is only an on the fly shot. Across 4 players we were 0 for 20. I’ll try the other pin today and see if that was just a fluke.
The dare devil cycle shot was reject city. We’d get clean hits, the bottom would kinda lift up and the ball would just come back to the flippers. Think of the Death Star shot on Star Wars, but without the speed and it being closer to you.
The atomic shop shot reminded me of the orb shot on GOTG. It was a fairly safe return. I think a ball was supposed to lock behind it, but when I hit it nothing happened.
The spinning Oozie shot really killed any flow of the game for me. The ball seemed to spend more time being deflected off of it and trickle back to flippers. We hit it a few times to spin it, but the shot itself wasn’t satisfying and seemed to be more of a flow killer.
I’m going to play it some more today and try out the other prototype they brought. I’ll probably have some more thoughts on it later today. As of right now I’m underwhelmed by the gameplay itself. Compared to JP and Wonka on shot flow or just design, it’s not in the same ball park. If you love these games, then I’d probably advised to dial down expectations when stepping up to RAZA. Shots on this aren’t necessarily tight as it is that the geometry just makes the game play ok. When you do brick a shot (and it’ll happen more often then not) it didn’t feel like you were going to be punished for it.
I’m sure the entire package (art/sound) will come together come March. I wish Deeproot the best and hope they can back up everything that has been touted for the past couple of years. I really want my expectations to be matched and for this to be a kick ass pin. At this point though, with how it actually plays, it was underwhelming.

Thanks for the detailed write-up! That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. It's concerning that with the amount of time and resources that DR has spent on this game that it doesn't shoot more polished and smooth, especially with how much they like to talk themselves up.-werent they originally supposed to outship all manufacturers in 2019.

The good news is that they still have time to tweak and polish the game before it's released. I'm sure the finished product will be much better. It does seem impressive in many other ways so I'm excited to see what they do going forward.

Quoted from Potatoloco:
Alright so I got to spend some time on it. I’d like to think I have a little skill to me as I won the state championship in Oklahoma and was ranked in the top 40 on the stern circuit for most of the season. These are my thoughts and my thoughts only, I don’t have a horse in this race and hope every pinball that comes out is successful.
The game is prototype for sure. I can’t speak for coding (very early stages) or artwork as I believe it’s not final. Many of the shots weren’t doing anything or were very buggy which was expected. What I can speak to is playfield design and how the shots were.
The right ramp has a feature with 3/4 of the middle of it missing completely. If you don’t hit this ramp solid, it won’t make it around the ramp without the speed. It’ll simply fall back to the playfield.
The skill shot can actually go to the outlane, similar to Congo. The kickback then sent it back up to an area that is like a “snake feed” that goes back to the playfield.
There is a magna save. It’s more similar to Pharaoh’s magna save and the button is on the right side of the cabinet. It’s in such a place that you won’t accidentally hit it.
One of the main multiball features is started by hitting a roving target in the back. It was supposed to spell zombie and then start a multiball we believe, but the software never allowed for that feature to start.
Alright so, how does it shoot? Honestly after about 20 minutes, I went from being really excited to play it to an uh-oh feeling. The game plays very slow.
The orbits were moderate to hit. The shots seemed earlier on the flippers than expected. Both shots seemed to feed back to the opposite flipper, though it hung up a couple of times.
The ramps were another story. We kept count. I was 0 for 12 getting the ball successfully up the ride the coasters ramp (right ramp). Not 0 for 12 misses, that’s how many rejects I had from a trap. Either the flippers weren’t strong enough or that shot is only an on the fly shot. Across 4 players we were 0 for 20. I’ll try the other pin today and see if that was just a fluke.
The dare devil cycle shot was reject city. We’d get clean hits, the bottom would kinda lift up and the ball would just come back to the flippers. Think of the Death Star shot on Star Wars, but without the speed and it being closer to you.
The atomic shop shot reminded me of the orb shot on GOTG. It was a fairly safe return. I think a ball was supposed to lock behind it, but when I hit it nothing happened.
The spinning Oozie shot really killed any flow of the game for me. The ball seemed to spend more time being deflected off of it and trickle back to flippers. We hit it a few times to spin it, but the shot itself wasn’t satisfying and seemed to be more of a flow killer.
I’m going to play it some more today and try out the other prototype they brought. I’ll probably have some more thoughts on it later today. As of right now I’m underwhelmed by the gameplay itself. Compared to JP and Wonka on shot flow or just design, it’s not in the same ball park. If you love these games, then I’d probably advised to dial down expectations when stepping up to RAZA. Shots on this aren’t necessarily tight as it is that the geometry just makes the game play ok. When you do brick a shot (and it’ll happen more often then not) it didn’t feel like you were going to be punished for it.
I’m sure the entire package (art/sound) will come together come March. I wish Deeproot the best and hope they can back up everything that has been touted for the past couple of years. I really want my expectations to be matched and for this to be a kick ass pin. At this point though, with how it actually plays, it was underwhelming.

Seems like most of the complaints you list are resolved with stronger flippers. And remember it is a prototype.

Quoted from MikeS:
Thanks for the detailed write-up! That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. It's concerning that with the amount of time and resources that DR has spent on this game that it doesn't shoot more polished and smooth, especially with how much they like to talk themselves up.-werent they originally supposed to outship all manufacturers in 2019.
The good news is that they still have time to tweak and polish the game before it's released. I'm sure the finished product will be much better. It does seem impressive in many other ways so I'm excited to see what they do going forward.

For sure. I’d rather the kinks be worked out and they get the right feedback to make the most complete game possible. I’d like to see success. I will say the animations on the backbox were solid.

My biggest concern is that there doesn’t appear to be much attempt to design the game with much flow or combos in mind. That’s one reason why Stern JP is refreshing for me right now.

The game still looks interesting and it’s good to see some more options, hopefully the pricing will be reasonable.

Quoted from kermit24:Seems like most of the complaints you list are resolved with stronger flippers. And remember it is a prototype.

That’s what I’m hoping. Especially the right ramp shot. It’s a cool design, but not being able to hit it from a trap is concerning. The game was set up steep or anything like that, it just seemed like the only way to hit it was from on the fly.

So we have one player feels the right ramp is good, even though you cant just flick it from a trap (reminds me of Frankie or Baywatch tower, love it when you make those tougher shots) ... and one player feels the right ramp is bad, although that seems to be just because it cant be made from a trap?

Anyway I guess that makes the right ramp 50/50 so far.

Personally I like satisfying staged ramps that can't be fully made from the trap. Forces players to Play Better, on the fly from the inlane or playfield, in order to be fully rewarded. Once you stop fixating on trapping, that ball Flies around there if you choose to keep it alive! = super satisfying

Quoted from razorsedge:
I rekon the "video scenes" will do just fine placed on the centre third of their display in the correct aspect ratio. The display is both tall enough, and hi res enough, to well provide all that is ever needed for pinball movie cut scenes. Well for me at least anyway.
There are fantastic games with displays that use a mere 4096 orange shaded dots, and far smaller display size... which have amazing entertaining display animations/scenes.
If hobbit is only good because of the 27" movie on the backbox, then I guess it mustn't be a very good pinball game? ... or maybe could go to the movies?
Thank you DR for having a decent size backglass area!!!

The Hobbit is a fantastic game with 31 modes which are all very different and unique , the videos are just the iceing on the cake . I can't believe anyone would argue well done video clips take away from the experience and not add to it . Lord of the Rings is a great game but tell me it wouldn't be more attractive with clips from the movie instead of orange dots trying to replicate clips from the movie .

Quoted from screaminr:
The Hobbit is a fantastic game with 31 modes which are all very different and unique , the videos are just the iceing on the cake . I can't believe anyone would argue well done video clips take away from the experience and not add to it . Lord of the Rings is a great game but tell me it wouldn't be more attractive with clips from the movie instead of orange dots trying to replicate clips from the movie .

Personal preferences I guess. I'm not interested in paying the extra, when that doesn't really add anything for me. Stern sized screen is the max useful, for myself. As I described, I'd much prefer a decent backglass and a good pinball game.

I thought you said hobbit wouldn't rate as high without the video? .... does that mean it has to take up the whole backbox for that? or is 17" okay?

Plenty of games with comparatively small displays rate even higher.?

I've never argued about video clips being bad, myself. They certainly Do add, alot, I think. I was just saying I don't really like the full backbox displays. Alien is very good, but I still dont think the display in the backbox needed to be that big to have the same effect.

Quoted from kermit24:
Seems like most of the complaints you list are resolved with stronger flippers. And remember it is a prototype.

Somehow that sounds awfully familiar... XD

...anyone remembers AP's Houdini showings?

I "hope" it's the same Problem, that the flippers are massively weaker then normal, because there's such a lot of machines running.

(And plz therefore get a better power brick from the getgo and don't make it an additional purchase.)

Quoted from razorsedge:
So we have one player feels the right ramp is good, even though you cant just flick it from a trap (reminds me of Frankie or Baywatch tower, love it when you make those tougher shots) ... and one player feels the right ramp is bad, although that seems to be just because it cant be made from a trap?
Anyway I guess that makes the right ramp 50/50 so far.
Personally I like satisfying staged ramps that can't be fully made from the trap. Forces players to Play Better, on the fly from the inlane or playfield, in order to be fully rewarded.

I’d tend to agree. The problem is, there’s nothing that feeds the left inlane in order to create this on the fly shot. I couldn’t find anyway to pre-plan for that shot. There’s no existing shots to create the speed needed for the flipper to make that shot. At this point the only hope is your nudge goes into the inlane and the ramp happens to be lit for something to make it worthwhile going for.

Quoted from DS_Nadine:
Somehow that sounds awfully familiar... XD
...anyone remembers AP's Houdini showings?
I "hope" it's the same Problem, that the flippers are massively weaker then normal, because there's such a lot of machines running.
(And plz therefore get a better power brick from the getgo and don't make it an additional purchase.)

My gut reaction is the flippers were under powered. This shot should be able to be hit from a trap in my opinion due to nothing feeding that flipper to create an on the fly shot.

If their intention was to have a ramp that needed speed to be hit but no inlane feed, then that’s a real head scratcher.

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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago

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