(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

1 year ago



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There are 4209 posts in this topic. You are on page 11 of 85.
#501 1 year ago
Quoted from BobLangelius:

Does there exist a material you can take a sledge hammer to and it will not leave a mark? Maybe my understanding of sledge hammers is flawed?
Maybe i'm just using the hammer wrong???
Maybe the material is water?
Things that make you go Hmmm...

My guess is the sledge hammer is metaphorical. Because why would you need to use one to test a pin? Normally you'd want the testing of switches, mechanisms and lighting to work flawlessly. Notice how that wasn't mentioned? Robert said he was choosing his words carefully so as not to be accused later of stating something incorrectly. But he wishes to maintain a veil over the new concept.

If the system implements vr and the patents help protect the rules, scoring, layout, sounds, lighting and formatting of data in virtual world, then one could use a virtual sledge hammer on it all day long. What the hammer probably means is that the game will be built to be robust.

Robert was kind enough to respond to my follow up questions above and that helped rule out some possibilities. My theory is if you need 30 new patents to build a pinball, then you are talking about deploying a totally different technology. My hunch that virtual reality plays a big part could explain some other clues given. You don't need a big factory if you are making simple playfields with a few mechanisms. You aren't concerned about parts shortages. New games will cost considerably less. A library of programmed modules can be implemented easily and development cycle time is shredded. Impossible real world conditions are no longer a limiting concern, allowing you to replicate Hans Solo freezing as an example effect. Robert could issue instructions to the team to create something extremely difficult and expect it in 30 days.

This hybrid vr pinball concept would help explain why JPOP was a needed hire. Customer base is expanded well beyond the walls of current pinball players, many of which may not be interested in this concept. While foregoing purchasing one, they still would be interested in playing it on location. JPOP had been working on and thinking about some kind of virtual pinball concept over the years. It wasn't given much attention in all the reporting to date and it never gained traction, but my guess is that Robert had some ideas on how to make it happen and JPOP will be helpful developing the tools and processes to be used. That also could explain why Robert said John's best days are ahead of him.

If it is a hybrid vr pinball, some pieces still don't make sense. Why do you need five days to explain it? Why are the only themes being initially pursued JPOP's original designs? Why is Deeproot offering to work a compromise to make Zidware customers whole?

#502 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

My guess is the sledge hammer is metaphorical. Because why would you need to use one to test a pin?

You sure? He was pretty adamant that was how they were going to test their clear coat. Said he was tired of dimples.

You should see the sledge hammer testing room at Ferrari.

#503 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

5) will games consist of a console and virtual reality glasses?

Quoted from deeproot:

5) No comment.

Perhaps this is where we can read between the lines about how these things will be cheap and easy to build. It's not a "real" pinball. And perhaps this is where the comment about P3 not being innovative comes from - P3 is still "real" pinball.

Maybe i'm totally wrong about this, but if they're going to drop bread crumbs then this where my mind is going.

#504 1 year ago

pasted_image (resized).png

This is not deeproot, this is an image I found when i googled VR Pinball.

#505 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

You sure? He was pretty adamant that was how they were going to test their clear coat. Said he was tired of dimples.
You should see the sledge hammer testing room at Ferrari.

The dimples are not caused by clearcoat but by not compressing the wood before machining it.

#506 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

This is not deeproot, this is an image I found when i googled VR Pinball.

That seems a lot closer to what i think is planned. Maybe it incorporates a playfield in a cabinet instead of the simple console shown in your pic.

Also googled an image of the hammer testing phase - which is not Deeproot's, but I can't stop watching.

IMG_2262.GIF

#507 1 year ago

I find it really hard to believe this is going to be VR based - especially based on the terms of the Zidware customer program. I would be pretty ticked if I had $9,500 in the game with Zidware, which got me two machines, and in reality it was just two VR software packages. Not to mention Robert talked about how people love to bash things with a metal ball - you can't get that same feeling in VR.

Now augmented reality (AR), there is something I hadn't considered before which could make some sense. You still play on a physical machine, but wear some sort of glasses which project an overlayed image on the playfield. For those who aren't familiar with AR, check out Microsoft Hololens, or the Star Wars Jedi Challenges AR game. Not sure if this is really practical, but could actually be really cool.

#508 1 year ago

If I wanted to do VR I'd buy a Vive. I want to play pinball because it's a physical game.

I really hope that sledgehammer comment was a metaphor. There's no playfield that will take a sledgehammer hit nor is that a real test of anything.

#509 1 year ago

Because this discussion might affect Zidware claimants decisions, we’ll say we have tested AR, not VR. But it’s not something that is going to be in the 1st generation of games.

What we are working on will be better than AR or VR and would likely be able to be retrofitted to other machines. 80% of what we are doing are based on our frustrations with existing machines.

On the sledgehammer, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but not a metaphor. Warranty for PF will be unheard of, so we take its durability seriously.

— dT

#510 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

On the sledgehammer, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but not a metaphor. Warranty for PF will be unheard of, so we take its durability seriously.

Wait, you mean you aren't going to take a sledgehammer to every playfield? No kidding, it's dumb.

Maybe cut back on the over-exaggeration. You completely discredit other things you say when you say obviously wrong/incorrect things.

#511 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Wait, you mean you aren't going to take a sledgehammer to every playfield? No kidding, it's dumb.
Maybe cut back on the over-exaggeration. You completely discredit other things you say when you say obviously wrong/incorrect things.

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.

—dT

#512 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT

I look forward to seeing that. Think you guys will post video at some point?

#513 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Because this discussion might affect Zidware claimants decisions, we’ll say we have tested AR, not VR. But it’s not something that is going to be in the 1st generation of games.
What we are working on will be better than AR or VR and would likely be able to be retrofitted to other machines. 80% of what we are doing are based on our frustrations with existing machines.
On the sledgehammer, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but not a metaphor. Warranty for PF will be unheard of, so we take its durability seriously.
— dT

What is "the first generation of games"? Is that like the first game you make? First 3? First 10? I don't think you even know what the hell you're taking about anymore.

If you're concerned with the decisions of zidware customers, you should be more clear about what the fuck you plan to make. No one is even sure it's going to be a "real" pinball machine.

Good luck with your "Pinball company", dude!!

#514 1 year ago

I do have to say incorporating AR makes a LOT of sense, especially when we look at all the screens being added to games. You might say that DI’s theater and the Ghostbusters EctoGoggles are AR; this is a great way to merge technology with pinball and really bring things forward a couple of years, without just jumping to VR completely; it’s just too fake and gross (see Sony’s pinkeye debacle)

#515 1 year ago

Well, so far, everything about this company sounds interesting....except jpoop!

#516 1 year ago
Quoted from pinlink:

What is "the first generation of games"? Is that like the first game you make? First 3? First 10? I don't think you even know what the hell you're taking about anymore.

Why does it have to be a specific number of games?

In my mind, Stern has had 4 different generations when you consider the boardsets - WhiteStar, SAM, Spike, Spike v2. Different boardsets alllowed for upgraded tech - USB updates, RGB lighting, HD displays, etc.

I just take deeproot as saying in the future they may expand upon what their machines will do beyond the first generation (however long that lasts).

#517 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT

beyond that, im assuming youll be setting up a test fixture to life test pinballs striking the playfield in parallel?

#518 1 year ago

I don't think Ted likes to hug bad businessman. That the vibe I'm getting.

#519 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

beyond that, im assuming youll be setting up a test fixture to life test pinballs striking the playfield in parallel?

Nope. Just hit each playfield with a hammer a few times and it's good to go!!

#520 1 year ago

For some reason I was thinking one if they plan to remove alot of the physical switches from the playfield and instead use camera/software to 'track' the ball/balls and trigger hits that way.

#521 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT

I get it, the playfield will be nailed to the cabinet

#522 1 year ago
Quoted from swillie:

For some reason I was thinking one if they plan to remove alot of the physical switches from the playfield and instead use camera/software to 'track' the ball/balls and trigger hits that way.

A bit off topic, but camera facial recognition has gotten crazy good. I was just looking though Google Photo and it was impressive how they were able to produce slideshows of my twins. Even when they were babies they could sort the pictures by either of them correctly. I sometimes had trouble. If this is the public level we're seeing it's almost scary to think what technology the government might have access too.

Anyway, back on topic. Assuming some software could be programmed to track a pinball, that could have the ability to vastly reduce the assembly cost of machines. Targets, switches, etc. no longer would need to be wired. I have no idea what a system like that would cost though. Seems like it would be as much or more then traditional manufacturing.

Reminds me of this:

#523 1 year ago

Every playfield will be hit with a hammer multiple times as T-nuts are installed, maybe this is what they are referring to?

#524 1 year ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Every playfield will be hit with a hammer multiple times as T-nuts are installed, maybe this is what they are referring to?

But the playfield will be so impenetrable, how will the t-nuts go in?

#525 1 year ago

Sledgehammer pinball? Bring it on!

Sledge-Hammer (resized).jpg

#526 1 year ago

Sounds like they may use something similar to the pinball hardtop that OutsideEdge introduced at Expo in October.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hardtop-playfield-new-product-announcement-poll-included
http://www.pinballgifts.com/hardtop.html

Using something like that, as a customer, it would be relatively easy to retheme or develop your own game. Change out the overlay, software (or rule set), and plastic set. Might also explain multiple games being available at the same time.

#527 1 year ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Assuming some software could be programmed to track a pinball

MultiMorphic already tracks the pinball as it rolls over their interactive playfield. One of the modes in Lexy Lightspeed - Escape From Earth you roll over crates to smash them open. Another you fill virtual mugs of delicious beverage, then drink them.

#528 1 year ago
Quoted from Dmod:

Sounds like they may use something similar to the pinball hardtop that OutsideEdge introduced at Expo in October.

Agreed. This is basically thin polycarbonate, same stuff used for bullet proof glass (granted it's much thicker). I'm guessing hitting with a hammer will have no effect (cept you can still scratch polycarbonate) so maybe it'll be a hammer with felt (so you get the impact but not the scratch).

Think about how much easier the Stern clearcoat issue would have been if all they had to do is ship a thin overlay to customers (especially overseas), instead of having to ship an empty box, have the customer pull the heavy playfield out, ship that to Stern, the factory does a rebuild with a new playfield (which is a ton of labor pulling off components and putting onto a new playfield), then ship that heavy playfield back to the customer.

Granted even on an overlay you still have to pull everything off the top layer, but it's the bottom layer that's usually the beast.

This 5 days of deeproot is starting to sound like 5 days of revealing innovation.. Sounds like a lot of it could be existing, but no company has really implemented all of this aftermarket stuff from the factory. I just hope the end product is as good as Robert is describing.

#529 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Agreed. This is basically thin polycarbonate, same stuff used for bullet proof glass (granted it's much thicker). I'm guessing hitting with a hammer will have no effect (cept you can still scratch polycarbonate) so maybe it'll be a hammer with felt (so you get the impact but not the scratch).
Think about how much easier the Stern clearcoat issue would have been if all they had to do is ship a thin overlay to customers (especially overseas), instead of having to ship an empty box, have the customer pull the heavy playfield out, ship that to Stern, the factory does a rebuild with a new playfield (which is a ton of labor pulling off components and putting onto a new playfield), then ship that heavy playfield back to the customer.
Granted even on an overlay you still have to pull everything off the top layer, but it's the bottom layer that's usually the beast.
This 5 days of deeproot is starting to sound like 5 days of revealing innovation.. Sounds like a lot of it could be existing, but no company has really implemented all of this aftermarket stuff from the factory. I just hope the end product is as good as Robert is describing.

With the PETG overlay, there wouldn't be a need for clearcoat anymore, so you would avoid any problems associated with lifting clear. I'd be surprised if other manufacturers weren't exploring it as an option.

I didn't get a chance to try Outside Edge's game at Expo, but was told it played very fast. If the ball rolls differently than wood, there might be some hesitancy to adopt it.

#530 1 year ago

I don't believe any floating protective overlay will be a good answer. Those floating pop bumper rings on Gottlieb Black Hole where horrible and eventually and quickly turned into sandpaper.
Dust, dried rubber, solenoid particles will find it's way under a floating surface. Wiping or buffing surface scratching of the protector may even quicken problems under it. Pinball has vibrations and a heavy ball rolling over it sounds like trouble to me.

The only product I fully believe in currently is the hardtop product with image art under protective surface and adhesive back holding it all in place. But it is such a new product to even know how well those are going to work out.

#531 1 year ago
Quoted from CNKay:

The only product I fully believe in currently is the hardtop product with image art under protective surface and adhesive back holding it all in place.

Nice!

Just like full playfield mylar where it is the glue underneath that you can't polish to a shine after it starts to dull with age.

#532 1 year ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

MultiMorphic already tracks the pinball as it rolls over their interactive playfield. One of the modes in Lexy Lightspeed - Escape From Earth you roll over crates to smash them open. Another you fill virtual mugs of delicious beverage, then drink them.

Yeah, think I played it at Expo. Does it use a touch screen to track the ball?

#533 1 year ago
Quoted from Dmod:

Sounds like they may use something similar to the pinball hardtop that OutsideEdge introduced at Expo in October.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hardtop-playfield-new-product-announcement-poll-included
http://www.pinballgifts.com/hardtop.html
Using something like that, as a customer, it would be relatively easy to retheme or develop your own game. Change out the overlay, software (or rule set), and plastic set. Might also explain multiple games being available at the same time.

I did that back in 2005 on lexx which won best of show at the uk show that year. Since then i have developed a solution for running power straight through the playfield to remove wiring.

#534 1 year ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

That said, innovations (and talk) mean nothing without execution and customers

Well that's why he's in law... talk wins

#535 1 year ago

It seems that with all the tech we have today pinball is primitive. Wood for playfields instead of something that protects art and is almost indestructible. All those wires and "stuff" under the playfield. Lets get into the future.....

#536 1 year ago

Definitely sounds like the playfields are not going to be made of wood. Otherwise I volunteer to be the official sledgehammer playfield whacker guy.

#537 1 year ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Definitely sounds like the playfields are not going to be made of wood. Otherwise I volunteer to be the official sledgehammer playfield whacker guy.

Why use steel balls on wooden playfield and nit woodened balls on steel playields?

#538 1 year ago
Quoted from master_of_chaos:

Why use steel balls on wooden playfield and nit woodened balls on steel playields?

#539 1 year ago

I'm convinced more and more this guy is trying to build a company to be bought... more so than build a lasting pinball company.

#540 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I'm convinced more and more this guy is trying to build a company to be bought... more so than build a lasting pinball company.

I just put my claim in. Now i have to go back and search bank records because Jpop didn't keep any? Maybe in lieu of we can get an affidavit from John to DR? He loves me.

Building a company to be bought by whom?

Realistically they are going to have to knock out a few competitors with whatever advantages they think they have somehow. And it better come on pricing and increased quality. So much easier said than done.

The amount of overhead burn without revenue is crushing. You better sell a shit ton of pins to get any kind of ROI.

Pinball is never going to go back to mainstream arcade or HUO. Its just not.

Why did Bally/Williams drop out?

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens

#541 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT

You might not fracture the clear, and if it's properly aged / compressed wood then it might not dimple it either.

Great way of either cracking the relatively brittle plastics inserts or 'bouncing' them out of their holes, though, as the wood rebounds, if it's heavy enough.

Also, since this would obviously be a rubber mallet, what exactly would it prove re: the hardness of the clear or dimpling? Not really on the same level of index of hardness as a steel ball bearing.

#542 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Realistically they are going to have to knock out a few competitors with whatever advantages they think they have somehow.

boxing-gloves (resized).jpg

#543 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Also, since this would obviously be a rubber mallet, what exactly would it prove re: the hardness of the clear or dimpling? Not really on the same level of index of hardness as a steel ball bearing.

He said a couple of times on the interview, no misunderstanding, "sledgehammer".

Either way, current pf's are fine.

#544 1 year ago

In a public SEC.gov Reg D filing, Deeproot pinball filed to attract "accredited investors", minimum amount of $25,000, up to a total of $6 million in securities issued.

Why not self fund instead of using OPM?

Consider me impressed with all the effort and money blown so far.

#545 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Consider me impressed with all the effort and money blown so far.

I'm just amazed that they probably think there are more than 100 people that will buy their pinball product.

#546 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

I'm just amazed that they probably think there are more than 100 people that will buy their pinball product.

When it comes out 18 months down the road after all the overhead burn? I will say JJP nearly went down the tubes because they overestimated revenues and underestimated costs over several years.

Is this a labor of love? Is the "executive" crew taking a salary? Self funded?

It all makes a difference imo.

#547 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I will say JJP nearly went down the tubes because they overestimated revenues and underestimated costs over several years.

To be fair to JJP, they only announced and concentrated on one title until they got things rolling.

Anytime I see a company that is talking about multiple titles and big future before one prototype is even playable, I'm a little skeptical.

#549 1 year ago
Quoted from o-din:

Anytime I see a company that is talking about multiple titles and big future before one prototype is even playable, I'm a little skeptical.

No reason to be skeptical, wasn't it posted they won't be doing prototypes ?

LTG : )

#550 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

No reason to be skeptical, wasn't it posted they won't be doing prototypes ?
LTG : )

Good point LTG. Why do any prototypes, when you can work on four different titles at once.

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