(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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#5151 5 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

They won't need to defend it. IF an entity tried to use their patented tech, that entity would have to 'defend' their usage of it.
Further reading: https://www.eff.org/issues/patents

They'd still need to bring a case, which essentially entails defending the patent.

Also, people or companies can bring cases to have patents struck off.

#5152 5 months ago

Everything I know about the futility of patents for the little guy is that only the biggest companies are able to fund their defenses of patents.

There are lots of stories of guys unsuccessfully defending their patents. I personally have decided to never bother patenting my own innovations. I just keep them close to my vest and guard what I can, which is helped by not having to publish them for everyone to look at.

The patent system seems to only serve the biggest companies and the patent trolls.

#5153 5 months ago

Does DR have any patents that others would want to steal?

#5154 5 months ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It's a canted extending arm attached to a box at each end. The contents of either box has no bearing on the arm, nor the arm on them. There is absolutely NOTHING novel about it.

Secondly, it hasn't been tested in court. You can get granted a patent for virtually anything in the US if you're prepared to file ... see JPop's list of crap. Doesn't mean you'll be able to defend any of them.

Or you don't understand what the criteria really is...

There is certainly enough there to make it novel... A patent doesn't have to use all new undiscovered tech to be novel.. It can be a new use of existing concepts in new novel applications. You may think using a arm is 'obvious', but have you dug into the actual meat of the patent?

You may think this is 'obvious'... but so would a folding backbox right? Yet Wico was able to patent a folding backbox in 1985... years after Bally and others were already doing a folding backboxes... because their patent was about the hinge design to address what they identify as shortcomings with prior folding backbox designs.

Or how about Stern patenting the idea of using LEDs for GI lighting? Yup... they did that.

The deeproot patent covers lots of concepts such as the rotating PF, how they are doing the backbox folding, the different service positions, the mounting, etc.

And while you may point the finger at the US patent process... note deeproot has filed with WIPO - not just the US.

I have lots of problems with this concept.. and patents in general... but simply pointing at it and saying "its just an arm..." is not one of them.

#5155 5 months ago

I think patenting anything in pinball is not spending your money wisely. The market is what, 30k pinballs a year at best? Even if you're stern that supposedly has 85% of the market, how much money do you think Stern really has to take a copyright infringement to court? I've worked at many companies and it can easily cost $20-$50k per court case to defend a patent (and often you don't recoup that money, especially if the company they are fighting decides to file bankruptcy). If anything, patents are there so they have a leg to stand on when the cease and desist letters go out.

#5156 5 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

If anything, patents are there so they have a leg to stand on when the cease and desist letters go out.

I think that's all it is. Or the patent trolls using them to extort with the same letters.

#5157 5 months ago

Yeah, it's only the rich companies that can afford to defend patents. The most ridiculous patent, by far, is Christian Louboutin patenting red soles on women's shoes. He has successfully sued several other designers that use the color red. Crazy shit. shoes (resized).jpg

#5158 5 months ago

Well, it's an interesting tease for sure. I've been trolled before and probably again... wouldn't be the first time I fell for it.

But I'm game to at least pay attention to Pinball Profile over the next few days to see if anything unfolds.
Screen Shot 2019-10-28 at 4.00.20 PM (resized).png

#5159 5 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Yeah, it's only the rich companies that can afford to defend patents. The most ridiculous patent, by far, is Christian Louboutin patenting red soles on women's shoes. He has successfully sued several other designers that use the color red. Crazy shit. [quoted image]

That's a design patent not a utility patent -- quite different things (actually I think it is a trademark not a design patent anyway).

I do concur that defending against a patent lawsuit is a shakedown business, the small guy cannot risk or afford to defend.

#5160 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinzap:

Well, it's an interesting tease for sure. I've been trolled before and probably again... wouldn't be the first time I fell for it.
But I'm game to at least pay attention to Pinball Profile over the next few days to see if anything unfolds.
[quoted image]

I have ask, who is his source? I do not see anything on deeproot studios FB page or related pages. Odd that that would start on a Sunday. I call BS.

#5161 5 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Yeah, it's only the rich companies that can afford to defend patents. The most ridiculous patent, by far, is Christian Louboutin patenting red soles on women's shoes. He has successfully sued several other designers that use the color red. Crazy shit. [quoted image]

Actually not crazy, they put the red under sole on the map. Ask any woman what high heel has a red sole and they'll tell you Louboutin. So its a brand for sure which is why they win in court. So name a Pinball MFG that is doing that design right now? Nobody. So if Stern copies it they'll be a lawsuit for sure and Stern will lose. Stern doesn't care about this stuff though, at least not to date so nobody will be copying this. On the other hand, Stern Copied JJP when they came out with an LCD's, but I'm sure JJP didn't have a patent and giving attention to Stern for making a smaller display wouldn't make sense regardless as its inferior out the gate.

#5162 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinzap:

Well, it's an interesting tease for sure. I've been trolled before and probably again... wouldn't be the first time I fell for it.
But I'm game to at least pay attention to Pinball Profile over the next few days to see if anything unfolds.
[quoted image]

So they moved up the dates? Hmmmm, ok 7 days to RAZA?

10
#5163 5 months ago

Can't be too serious, they haven't tweeted the announcement to their 60 twitter followers.

#5164 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinzap:

The 5 days are coming! (Nov. 3-7, 2019)

It says 5 days are coming. It does not say the five days must involve deeproot.
And November 3rd thru 7th does equate to 5 days that are indeed coming up.
So absolutely nothing else needs to happen but time to pass and this will come true.

#5165 5 months ago

Nov 3rd is a Sunday, so I call BS.

-2
#5166 5 months ago
Quoted from littlecammi:

And November 3rd thru 7th does equate to 5 days

Better check your math

#5167 5 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Better check your math

don't think so. that is 5 days

#5168 5 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Better check your math

??

3rd to 7th inclusive certainly does equate to 5 days...

#5169 5 months ago

In 2020 the 3rd to 7th of November is Tuesday to Saturday?

-1
#5170 5 months ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Actually not crazy, they put the red under sole on the map. Ask any woman what high heel has a red sole and they'll tell you Louboutin. So its a brand for sure which is why they win in court. So name a Pinball MFG that is doing that design right now? Nobody. So if Stern copies it they'll be a lawsuit for sure and Stern will lose. Stern doesn't care about this stuff though, at least not to date so nobody will be copying this. On the other hand, Stern Copied JJP when they came out with an LCD's, but I'm sure JJP didn't have a patent and giving attention to Stern for making a smaller display wouldn't make sense regardless as its inferior out the gate.

True. The whole history of pinball is stealing ideas and the companies work it out over cocktails. You think any company with a tilt mechanism or scoop sends money to PPS just because Harry Williams invented them in the 30s?

#5171 5 months ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

don't think so. that is 5 days

I honestly thought you said does not equate. Posted after a glass of wine. First one in a year I might add.

#5172 5 months ago

Guess I was just expecting more negativity. Funny I didn't catch it when I quoted. I even counted 3 times in my head...3-4-5-6-7. I do appologize.

#5173 5 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

I honestly thought you said does not equate. Posted after a glass of wine. First one in a year I might add.

Just goes to show you're out of practice and should drink more regularly.

#5174 5 months ago

Okay here's the "tease".

This Friday, Nov. 1st is Pinball Profile's 3rd anniversary! It all started with Steve Ritchie, Nov. 1st, 2016.

Nov. 3-7, I'll be presenting 5 consecutive days of deep interviews with 5 Steve's!
- Steve Ritchie

- Steve Daniels

- Steve Epstein

- Stephen Keeler

- Steven Bowden

TA-DA!

#5175 5 months ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Better check your math

3, 4, 5, 6, 7.gif

#5176 5 months ago
Quoted from o-din:

Not until the thing breaks off and lands on someones foot.

Looks to me with a populated playfield that whole machine would flip over on the floor!!!

#5177 5 months ago

So first they said Several RAZAs would be at the Houston show to play. Then they reiterate to say two of them will be there but not with the art package or animations? What is the point then? I bet they won't even show...

#5178 5 months ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

[quoted image]

Lol. Its what happens when a non drinker, drinks while watching the Steelers barely beat the Dolphins.

#5179 5 months ago

Maybe they were referring to Kid's Frosts Comeback Tour with his 1990 hit "La RAZA"

#5180 5 months ago
Quoted from drredness:

Okay here's the "tease".
This Friday, Nov. 1st is Pinball Profile's 3rd anniversary! It all started with Steve Ritchie, Nov. 1st, 2016.
Nov. 3-7, I'll be presenting 5 consecutive days of deep interviews with 5 Steve's!
- Steve Ritchie
- Steve Daniels
- Steve Epstein
- Stephen Keeler
- Steven Bowden
TA-DA!

You Sir are evil! XD

#5181 5 months ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

You think any company with a tilt mechanism or scoop sends money to PPS just because Harry Williams invented them in the 30s?

I had no idea PPS held any rights to Automatic Amusements.

#5182 5 months ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Actually not crazy, they put the red under sole on the map. Ask any woman what high heel has a red sole and they'll tell you Louboutin. So its a brand for sure which is why they win in court. So name a Pinball MFG that is doing that design right now? Nobody. So if Stern copies it they'll be a lawsuit for sure and Stern will lose. Stern doesn't care about this stuff though, at least not to date so nobody will be copying this. On the other hand, Stern Copied JJP when they came out with an LCD's, but I'm sure JJP didn't have a patent and giving attention to Stern for making a smaller display wouldn't make sense regardless as its inferior out the gate.

Previous judges do not agree with you. These corporations just find another court and another judge until one works out for them. I don't give a shit what the public thinks about red soled shoes. He wasn't the first one to do it and should have no right to patent a color. Madness.

#5183 5 months ago

The red sole case is about trademark (brand identification), not patent (novel invention) or copyright (protection of creative works). The difference is easily confused as with most subtleties in law.

#5184 5 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Previous judges do not agree with you. These corporations just find another court and another judge until one works out for them. I don't give a shit what the public thinks about red soled shoes. He wasn't the first one to do it and should have no right to patent a color. Madness.

Quoted from Tranquilize:

Previous judges do not agree with you. These corporations just find another court and another judge until one works out for them. I don't give a shit what the public thinks about red soled shoes. He wasn't the first one to do it and should have no right to patent a color. Madness.

It’s not “patenting a color”, this is a trademark case.
Think of it like protecting your company logo

#5185 5 months ago
Quoted from howdoyouafford:

The red sole case is about trademark (brand identification), not patent (novel invention) or copyright (protection of creative works). The difference is easily confused as with most subtleties in law.

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

It’s not “patenting a color”, this is a trademark case.
Think of it like protecting your company logo

Principle is the same though. Red soled heels were a common thing going back decades before CL even existed. It's about abusing a broken legal system.

#5186 5 months ago

So, according to website teaser coming soon?

In response to inquiries, we would like to expound upon our prior statement, "At a minimum, several RAZA prototypes will be available to play at the Houston Arcade Expo." Two early prototypes of Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (RAZA) will be at the Houston Arcade Expo on November 15-16, 2019. These prototypes will not have final art, design, or code. Our primary goal is to collect real-world data. There will be a minimal deeproot staff presence only to monitor data and performance of the machine components.We expect to complete engineering and launch early next year. A press release and media qualification form will be forthcoming. We also plan to release a teaser for our second title prior to the Houston Arcade Expo show. This teaser will showcase a level of cinematic animation never before seen with pinball, courtesy of deeproot Studios.

#5187 5 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

So, according to website teaser coming soon?

Yes, a teaser for their second game, the one they won't be showing in Houston.

#5188 5 months ago

The dialing back is pretty remarkable

#5189 5 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

This teaser will showcase a level of cinematic animation never before seen with pinball

[overly dramatic eye-roll]

#5190 5 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Yeah, it's only the rich companies that can afford to defend patents. The most ridiculous patent, by far, is Christian Louboutin patenting red soles on women's shoes. He has successfully sued several other designers that use the color red. Crazy shit. [quoted image]

Generally, standard clothing (like shirts, dresses, hats) will not be eligible for design patents. The name of your clothing line, if you have one, would be most likely to be protected by trademark laws. ... Once a logo or design gets trademark or trade dress status, the mark can be registered with the U.S. Customs Office.

Your clothing line must be unique with an original name, slogan, and logo in order to qualify for trademark protection. ... You can gain protection for your clothing brand by having your lawyer file a trademark application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO).

no clothing design has trademarks patents etc, exceptions i would imagine are things like tactical gear, wearable tech etc. but you cant patent or trademark a style, a logo on that style yes but it is only the logo.

#5191 5 months ago

You can’t patent a color. Anyone can put red on the bottom of their shoes. The company that tries to sue other companies for doing so would lose the case in court.

#5192 5 months ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

This teaser will showcase a level of cinematic animation never before seen with pinball,

Yeah and I bet the cinematic animation wont be shown “with pinball” in the teaser either. I really expect to see nothing BUT cinematic animation ( thats a fancy term for a cartoon, right?) in this teaser and not an actual pinball machine. Hope Im wrong, but my expectations are pretty low by now.

#5193 5 months ago
Quoted from ralphcousman:

Generally, standard clothing (like shirts, dresses, hats) will not be eligible for design patents. The name of your clothing line, if you have one, would be most likely to be protected by trademark laws. ... Once a logo or design gets trademark or trade dress status, the mark can be registered with the U.S. Customs Office.
Your clothing line must be unique with an original name, slogan, and logo in order to qualify for trademark protection. ... You can gain protection for your clothing brand by having your lawyer file a trademark application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO).
no clothing design has trademarks patents etc, exceptions i would imagine are things like tactical gear, wearable tech etc. but you cant patent or trademark a style, a logo on that style yes but it is only the logo.

Louboutin has a trademark on the red sole and won in court against other shoe makers

#5194 5 months ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

You can’t patent a color. Anyone can put red on the bottom of their shoes. The company that tries to sue other companies for doing so would lose the case in court.

Louboutin has a trademark on the red sole and won in court against other shoe makers. YSL most notably, except if the shoe is red thus matches the sole.

#5195 5 months ago
Quoted from adol75:

Louboutin has a trademark on the red sole and won in court against other shoe makers

From the article about the case on the guardian. It’s in Europe,

“The legal case centred on European trademark law that forbids the registration of shapes where they add substantial value to goods.”

Which exists there not here or lots of other places.

Link to full article

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/12/christian-louboutin-ecj-ruling-red-soled-shoes

#5196 5 months ago
Quoted from ralphcousman:

From the article about the case on the guardian. It’s in Europe,
“The legal case centred on European trademark law that forbids the registration of shapes where they add substantial value to goods.”
Which exists there not here or lots of other places.
Link to full article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/12/christian-louboutin-ecj-ruling-red-soled-shoes

This ruling comes from a US federal court
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/louboutin-entitled-protect-signature-red-sole-court-rules/story?id=17163269

17
#5197 5 months ago

Never ever did I expect to see and read several posts concerning Louboutin on pinside. Later... I’m in the Twilight Zone

#5198 5 months ago
Quoted from 2pupPinz:

Never ever did I expect to see and read several posts concerning Louboutin on pinside. Later... I’m in the Twilight Zone

That's what I love about this Deeproot thread, since there are no pinballs there, it leaves the door open to a lot of cool topics !

#5199 5 months ago

The appellate court was clearly wrong to overturn the lower court. This has been ruled on before. Hopefully the Supreme Court will hear this case and overturn it. Lotta money involved, maybe appellate was bought off.

#5200 5 months ago

Always good to hear from the experts.

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