(Topic ID: 142137)

Twilight Zone wont boot up


By Blindseer

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 34 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Blindseer
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

I have owned my machine for about 2 months now and have noticed that occasionally there would be a hum through the speakers. Recently when I turn the game on it said settings and bookkeeping cleared. Today I tried booting it up and it failed. The dmd would show an orange line and there would be a hum. a while later the machine booted up and I played a few games until the game stopped working during multiball. I tried reseating all the cables and various things would happen ranging from flippers turning on to flasher lights turning on. on the cpu board d19 wont light but d21 is on. Now there is a different noise coming through the speakers.

#2 4 years ago

My right speaker hasn't been working since i got it. and today it started to crackle before the game died

#3 4 years ago

well book keep is stored with the 3 triple A battery's. Have you check or changed those lately? Also I had similar Issues with my BOP when my Game ROM was bad. Try reseating game ROMS.

#4 4 years ago

You did get the ribbon cable, right,

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

You did get the ribbon cable, right,

When the game died it started working again a few minutes later without me touching the cables then died after 3 games

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

well book keep is stored with the 3 triple A battery's. Have you check or changed those lately? Also I had similar Issues with my BOP when my Game ROM was bad. Try reseating game ROMS.

I replaced the batteries when I got the machine in september. Ill try reseating the gamerom

#7 4 years ago

I pulled the gamerom chip cleaned the contacts and put it back and nothing

#8 4 years ago

You check mpu board Asic chip and U20. I had really similar issues after I fried mine. I needed to replace game Rom Asic and U20 if I remember right. Yours is intermitted so should be bad connection on one of those. Also did you test all your Voltage test points? I always check power first. ASAP Always Start At Power. Low voltage causes strange behavior

#9 4 years ago

I am probably going to invest in a new rottendog mpu and some new chips and a new powerboard. I wanted to replace all the boards in the backbox as well as get an xpin led dmd. I dont want to be dealing with 22 year old parts. I might get the old boards fixed and keep them as backups or sell them

#10 4 years ago

If you sell em i'd be interested in the package deal.

#11 4 years ago

New boards aren't any more reliable than the originals. The originals just need a little maintenance occasionally.

#12 4 years ago

John so needing more maintenance vs. No maintenance at all is equal in your book? Is that an Oxymoron LOL! If new boards need less maintenance doesn't that make them more reliable by definition. I think I understand what you are saying that they work good when they are working good, but an old board that hasn't been touched is not as reliable as a RD board IMO. RD boards are very solid and less of a pain in the ass for someone who has Money and no time. If you are penny pinching and have time on your hands then yes its great to work on old boards but if you don't care and $300 isn't much money to you then plug and play RD boards are the way to go.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

John so they aren't more reliable but need maintenance more often? Is that an Oxymoron LOL! If new boards need less maintenance doesn't that make them more reliable by definition. I think I understand what you are saying that they work good when they are working good, but an old board that hasn't been touched is not as reliable as a RD board IMO. RD boards are very solid and less of a pain in the ass for someone who has Money and no time. If you are penny pinching and have time on your hands then yes its great to work on old boards but if you don't care and $300 isn't much money to you then plug and play RD boards are the way to go.

From what I've read rd boards dont work real well in tz

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

From what I've read rd boards don't work real well in tz

from what I read you are right. However RD seems to stand behind their boards meaning that if it doesn't work they will make it work.

#15 4 years ago

Id send the boards to john wart to get them redone

#16 4 years ago

Cpu lights? Voltages at test points? Did you actually re-seat that ribbon connector? Sounds like a stupid problem like a cold solder joint.

Seriously, do not replace all the boards in the back box, or any boards in the backbox, you will have even more trouble. Calling a tech is a lot cheaper and makes a lot more sense. These boards are extremely and infinitely repairable.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

From what I've read rd boards dont work real well in tz

First I agree with Jalpert and was giving him solutions. But if he doesn't want to fix it and wants to replace it that's his business. RD has updated boards that will work fine. Hell I got a Sys 11 RD board for a Taxi that didn't work great but Jim sent out a new revision board that worked fine. I am sure they figured it out by now. But OP I strongly suggest you follow Jalperts advice 1st. If you have time

#18 4 years ago

Wasn't saying you weren't providing solutions, my questions were pointing out the lack of answers. Without those answers, you don't just go to the soldering iron.

Quoted from kporter946286:

First I agree with Jalpert and was giving him solutions.

Sure. However, it is my opinion that he could probably pay a knowledgeable tech something like $100 and be fine for many years. Replacing all the boards is a complete and total waste of money.

The poster doesn't want to work on the game, and maybe doesn't realize that having someone fix it is very much in his best interest.

Quoted from kporter946286:

But if he doesn't want to fix it and wants to replace it that's his business.

I love rottendog stuff, but if I see rottendog boards in a game, I always think twice. A PPB board has to be pretty jacked up to make a Rottendog a viable option. When I think that, I start thinking about what else could be so jacked etc. Also, they are really compatible, but problems do happen. Just because it's a drop in replacement, doesn't mean it doesn't come with other risks / potential headaches.

Quoted from kporter946286:

Hell I got a Sys 11 RD board for a Taxi that didn't work great but Jim sent out a new revision board that worked fine. I am sure they figured it out by now.

Stick to the original boards, pay a known, knowledgeable tech to come out and fix the game, be up and running quickly. If the tech is good, there are very few problems they won't be able to fix on the spot.

#19 4 years ago

This happened to me last night. My GNR stopped booting. PIA light on solid, +5V light on solid, no blanking.

Checked connectors, all the symptoms lead to a bad EEPROM. Burned a new EEPROM, nothing. Burned the DE Test EEPROM, 1 blink on the PIA light, bad 6264 RAM.

I went to look at the slot, there was no 6264 RAM. That's because a couple months ago I was in the middle of swapping it with a Anyping NVRAM, got distracted and just forgot about it.

Pretty dumb mistake, but the moral of the story is non booting games can be REALLY simple fixes. Could be a bonehead mistake like mine, or a socketed chip etc. You don't just shotgun a whole boardset until you know what's going on.

#20 4 years ago

I put RD boards in my TZ when I had issues, played perfectly. Sent my original boards to Chris Hibler and put them back in after he rebuilt them. I keep the spare set of RD boards (mpu and power driver) as a backup.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

pay a knowledgeable tech something like $100

Depends on your area. My area has no knowledge techs that do work. So that's why I learned to do it myself. Now I am considered the "knowledgeable tech" in my area and have tons of work that I can barely get to. So if he doesn't have that option, like I didn't, and he has the money who cares. If he has the money and no tech available and nickle and dimming repairs isn't what he wants to do, I say, as long as he is not throwing boards out, do whatever you feel comfortable doing.

#22 4 years ago

Replacing all the boards seems like a bad choice. You probably simply need the BR2 or associated cap replaced.

The original boards are still the absolute most dependable boards out there.

I have about 20 WPC's on route, many on 24/7, they are solid as a rock, all with original boards.

The CPU board must be the single most reliable pinball board on the planet!

The only board I would consider replacing is the DMD board, as they do develop problems related to heat dissipation over time.

I have dealt with some rottendog boards, but I'll leave my opinion out in regards to them.

#23 4 years ago

Suppose I send out the original boards for repair No one can say when the next failure will happen on another part it either works of it doesn't. I could be saving half of what it costs to replace a power board and a cpu board but then it will break down again at some point.

I am going into this with the mindset of why sit there and try to track down a problem that will take as little as a minute (which at this point is long gone) to hours or days.

Yes a new board does not guarantee it wont fail just like a new car doesn't guarantee it will not fail when you get it. However, new boards have 22 years more of a chance for improvements to design, a guarantee that if something is wrong they will stand by their products.

As far as DMD I want to modernize it to LED for that same reason and replace the old dmd board.

The argument that RD boards might have issues is the same argument you can have with the old WPC boards.

Am I wrong in thinking like this? (I am not afraid of debugging, I have already replaced all my flipper coils and rebuilt them. Patched up clear-coat damage to the power-field, replaced all the bulbs with LEDs, fixed a problem where half my GI wasn't working etc.) I just think that time and money costs seem to be better invested elsewhere.

I can even get my boards fixed and make a rig where I can flat out isolate problems rather than have to use my game as my only workbench especially since I want other WPC89 games.

#24 4 years ago

John, who responded above, and Chris Hibler would be my recommendation for board repair.

However I would double-check all your voltages, especially your wall outlet voltage, before sending it in.

#25 4 years ago

You really don't need to worry about repeat failures. Once John or Chris goes over and " bullet proofs " your boards, another failure is very rare. They replace questionable parts, as a matter of preventative maintenance in addition to whatever blew. I have not personally heard of anyone who had to go back and get a board done again. I'm sure it happens, but I think it's rare.

#26 4 years ago

I think experience and history, as I noted above tells a pretty accurate story on what to do.

But in the end, it's your game - I would never replace all the boards and I never have in over 20 years of owning WPC's, but if you think you will get a more reliable game then fill your boots.

Bet I could get your game up in running in 30 minutes or less tho.

#27 4 years ago

This is key. I would take a rebuilt board (by a known professional) over a rottendog any day of the week. But I'm not even saying that. It's probably a lot easier and about the same price to call a tech. Living in San Antonio, I can't imagine there isn't a qualified tech in the area. Just have them come in, do what they need to do, then start playing. Just make sure you get a good tech.

Quoted from Imeh:

Once John or Chris goes over and " bullet proofs " your boards, another failure is very rare.

Don't get me wrong though, Rottendog has it's time and place. I picked up a TZ once (ironic) that had about 50% of the CPU board covered in battery acid. I noped my way right to their website and ordered a new CPU board (back when you could still order from them).

#28 4 years ago

A rottendog CPU board is actually not 100% new. The WPC CPU ASIC has not been manufactured in 15+ years. So, you're either using a used pull, or a NOS piece, which exist but are getting harder to find.

I've heard a few stories where people had issues with Rottendog boards. I admittedly don't have much personal experience with them, as I repair boards, and a guy who repairs boards doesn't really have much experience with repro boards.

Based on past precedent, I would *not* plan on putting Rottendog boards in a game and have it be the silver bullet that solves all your problems. I *would* suggest replacing all the ribbon cables in the backbox, as 20 year old ribbon cables have deteriorated over the years and will cause all sorts of wacky problems that are fun to try and diagnose.

You would also want to look pretty close at several connectors in the backbox that will deteriorate, GI input and ouput, secondary input, Z connector between the CPU and driver, etc.

I also hate fuse clips with a passion, and that's what RD uses on his boards. Probably comes from replacing them left and right over the years on DE power supplies and WMS sound boards.

Parts fail. New parts fail. Old parts fail. RD uses pulled 6821s on his boards that use 6821s (TZ doesn't use any...).

Nobody in the world can guarantee a part - new or old - won't fail in a week, month, year, etc. We can certainly look at ratings on a cap, or pull based on our experience, but there will always be some that outlast others, and some that fail before others

Do whatever makes you comfortable. I don't repair boards because I find it's the cheapest choice, I truthfully feel original boards in good condition are the *best* choice. But you get to make that call for you, just like I get to make it for me. Thankfully, it's a pinball machine, so whatever you decide isn't a life or death decision

#29 4 years ago

Seriously, have you replaced the ribbon cables??? I've now run into this twice. If I had sent the boards out for repair, they would have been returned as "good" with wasted money invested. Those tiny data lines carry signals required for system booting, the display, etc... and they weren't meant to be bent (take a look inside a desktop computer). The end connectors expand, the thin traces in the cable become brittle, all of these leading to extremely odd behavior with a perfectly good board.

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballkyle:

I have dealt with some rottendog boards, but I'll leave my opinion out in regards to them.

Haha. I think by saying this you are saying you don't like em.

John, Yes your right the ASIC is old. But that is 1 part, the ASIC chip in your rebuilt boards is ALSO OLD so that being said, RD boards have 85-95% newer components then the 5-15% new components that are part of a rebuild.

RD has great support and will warranty and replace everything if their is a problem.

Ultimately its your money and your decision but I do recommend poking around your board first for easy stuff as like WXforecaster stated if its a $10 ribbon cable neither a new RD or Johns rebuilt board will fix your problem. Double check everything do a bit of due diligence and in the end if you'd rather spend $300 for a RD vs. $150-200 on a rebuilt board that is your call.

#31 4 years ago

I decided to go with John to do a once over on the boards. If anything it's a reactive and proactive measure. I want to make sure that anything questionable is replaced.

In San Antonio there isn't really a place that does board repairs. I would have to go to Pinballz in Austin (which is where I work) and I sort of don't trust them.

Pinside has a wealth of knowledge and people that do good repairs and I trust John to do a great job because you guys recommend him.

I do want to redo the connectors in the backbox and I think Ill replace those ribbon cables.

Now Ill just use the money I saved to get a new pinled board and a white LED dmd

#32 4 years ago

I meant xpin board. Also I'm heading to altex to buy new ribbons to make new cables.

Thanks you guys for your insight.

#33 4 years ago

Smart move going with John he is one of the best, you won't be disappointed and you'll be making all the purests happy! Good luck!!

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

Smart move going with John he is one of the best, you won't be disappointed and you'll be making all the purests happy! Good luck!!

I already did a full led conversion I am not sure they would be happy but I love how bright and colorful the play-field was for the 2 days before it crapped out lol

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