(Topic ID: 285162)

Twilight Zone problem: EVERY ball detected as Powerball

By wbkwbk

3 years ago


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  • 39 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by wbkwbk
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TZ prox PCB (resized).jpg
CoilBoard1 (resized).jpg
CoilBoard2 (resized).jpg
TZ Switch 26 (resized).JPG
Switch57_Slot_Proximity_Test_Video_Snapshot#5s (resized).jpg
26_test_MetallBallInRightTrogh (resized).jpg
26_test_CeramicBall_InRightTrogh (resized).jpg
MetallBallInSlot_Proximity_Switch_Test (resized).jpg
MetallBallInRightTrough (resized).jpg
CeramicBallInRightTrough (resized).jpg
#1 3 years ago

Since yesterday, every ball is recognized as a Powerball.The error came gradually. For 2-3 games, about every 3rd metal ball would be falsely detected as a power, then every ball: both metal balls and the ceramic ball. Now every metal ball is falsely detected as a power ball. I replaced the original TROUGH PROXIMITY (EDDY) SENSOR board with a new better one half a year ago. I recalibrated this one again and it seems to be working fine. When there is a metal ball in the Right Trough (Switch 15), the red diode on the board lights up, but not with the ceramic ball. So this works correctly and as designed.
So up to and with the Eddy Sensor everything seems to work correctly. Nevertheless, for the CPU every ball seems to be a powerball. I currently have no idea what this could be due to. Thanks for any hints.

#2 3 years ago

Board LED lighting with metal ball means the detector is working OK. But there might be a bad connection in the cable. Check that all pins on the board J1 connector are well soldered, and the cable side connector is clean. If the cable feels loose, replace connector pins.

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Board LED lighting with metal ball means the detector is working OK. But there might be a bad connection in the cable. Check that all pins on the board J1 connector are well soldered, and the cable side connector is clean. If the cable feels loose, replace connector pins.

Switch Matrix Test: Eddy Board is working correctly + Switch Matrix Test shows correct switching of switch 26: When a Metall ball is in the Right Trough, Switch 26 is 'enabled' (closed) in the switch Matrix. With a ceramic ball Switch 26 is open

#4 3 years ago

Please see the pictures of the Matrix test

CeramicBallInRightTrough (resized).jpgCeramicBallInRightTrough (resized).jpgMetallBallInRightTrough (resized).jpgMetallBallInRightTrough (resized).jpg
#5 3 years ago

OK. Not a connector problem then.

Is your menu setting A2.26 "No powerball" set to "NO"? And is the slot machine eddy sensor also working correctly?

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

OK. Not a connector problem then.
Is your menu setting A2.26 "No powerball" set to "NO"? And is the slot machine eddy sensor also working correctly?

I've set up my TWZ with 5 Metall and one Ceramic Ball, "No Powerball" is set to "No" (Fac. Setting). Please see the attached Slot Machine Proximity Test Result with a Metall ball in the Slot machine. I assume this is a fault, as switch 57 should be closed with at metall ball in the slot machine, correct?

But even, if this slot machine eddy sensor would not work correctly wouldn't it be necessary a ball to pass by to trigger a powerball? But in my case whenever a new ball is provided to the shooter lane, immediately a Powerball event is triggered.

MetallBallInSlot_Proximity_Switch_Test (resized).jpgMetallBallInSlot_Proximity_Switch_Test (resized).jpg

#7 3 years ago

Please see single switch 26 Trough Proximity test images

26_test_CeramicBall_InRightTrogh (resized).jpg26_test_CeramicBall_InRightTrogh (resized).jpg26_test_MetallBallInRightTrogh (resized).jpg26_test_MetallBallInRightTrogh (resized).jpg
#8 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

I've set up my TWZ with 5 Metall and one Ceramic Ball, "No Powerball" is set to "No" (Fac. Setting). Please see the attached Slot Machine Proximity Test Result with a Metall ball in the Slot machine. I assume this is a fault, as switch 57 should be closed with at metall ball in the slot machine, correct?

The proximity sensor (switch #57) is in the subway between the camera and the slot machine. Putting a ball into the slot machine, will not test the proximity sensor as the ball doesn't roll down the subway over the sensor. To correctly test the sensor, place the machine into switch test mode and put a ball into the camera (actually it might be easier to drop it into the exit of the gumball) - as metal ball rolls down the subway it should trigger switch #57 before arriving at the slot machine triggering switch #58. Note only the last switch triggered is shown on the display, so you have to watch the display as the ball rolls down the subway.

Quoted from wbkwbk:

in my case whenever a new ball is provided to the shooter lane, immediately a Powerball event is triggered.

What version of code are you running? Have you tried doing a factory reset to start from a known configuration?

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

The proximity sensor (switch #57) is in the subway between the camera and the slot machine. Putting a ball into the slot machine, will not test the proximity sensor as the ball doesn't roll down the subway over the sensor. To correctly test the sensor, place the machine into switch test mode and put a ball into the camera (actually it might be easier to drop it into the exit of the gumball) - as metal ball rolls down the subway it should trigger switch #57 before arriving at the slot machine triggering switch #58. Note only the last switch triggered is shown on the display, so you have to watch the display as the ball rolls down the subway.

What version of code are you running? Have you tried doing a factory reset to start from a known configuration?

Software version Rev L-4. Worked fine the last half year since I got my TWZ. No I did not try a factory reset. This would erase highs scores as well? If not I could try a factory reset. And even if High Scores would be reset, if I do not find another solution I will try that - thank you for the hint.

#10 3 years ago

deleted

#11 3 years ago

deleted

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

The proximity sensor (switch #57) is in the subway between the camera and the slot machine. Putting a ball into the slot machine, will not test the proximity sensor as the ball doesn't roll down the subway over the sensor. To correctly test the sensor, place the machine into switch test mode and put a ball into the camera (actually it might be easier to drop it into the exit of the gumball) - as metal ball rolls down the subway it should trigger switch #57 before arriving at the slot machine triggering switch #58. Note only the last switch triggered is shown on the display, so you have to watch the display as the ball rolls down the subway.

Thank you for this tip. I've performed the test, putting balls in the camera. Switch 57 works correctly. Quickly changes to closed as a Metall ball rolls over, stays open as the ceramic ball rolls over. I've tested with several balls, always correct result: Metall ball triggers a switch 57 closed. As this happens very
quickly, I made a movie and the went through the movie frame by frame and took the snapshot from the according frame movie showing the switch 57 is closed. If interested I put the movie here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N_vubS2ZVkAT-ZlnpEA2XEbNQSSLoEsx/view?usp=sharing

Switch57_Slot_Proximity_Test_Video_Snapshot#5s (resized).jpgSwitch57_Slot_Proximity_Test_Video_Snapshot#5s (resized).jpg
#13 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

Software version Rev L-4. Worked fine the last half year since I got my TWZ.

That's quite an old revision - you'll find information about the new versions here http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/Williams/tech/roms/twilight.html

If your machine is for home use (ie free play) then I recommend that you buy the TZ 9.4H game ROM.

The latest sound ROM is L-2, your game may already have this but if not then you could get the sound ROMs at the same time.

#14 3 years ago

Is the machine showing a credit dot or when you go into the services menu does it flash any errors up on the DMD?

Next thing to check, go into switch test mode and watching the matrix on the left side of the DMD go through activating each switch - check on the matrix that only a single switch is being turned on. If there are any cases where multiple matrix lights are going on when you are pressing a single switch please take note of what matrix (row and column) they are.

Also can you confirm:
1. Every ball, of every game, when the ball (regardless of whether a metal or the ceramic ball) is ejected from the trough the machine says it is a Powerball - right?
2. If the ball in play is a metal one and the game is in Powerball mode, and you put the ball into the camera subway hole, does the machine continues to stay in Powerball mode or does it realise it's a metal ball and it stops the Powerball mode?

Maybe you could also take a video of these 2 steps and post for us to look at.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

That's quite an old revision - you'll find information about the new versions here http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/Williams/tech/roms/twilight.html
If your machine is for home use (ie free play) then I recommend that you buy the TZ 9.4H game ROM.
The latest sound ROM is L-2, your game may already have this but if not then you could get the sound ROMs at the same time.

U're right it's quite old, I'll order a more recent version.

#16 3 years ago

If you install a new ROM version, you will lose the high scores anyway, so maybe you could try resetting to factory settings with the L-4.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

If you install a new ROM version, you will lose the high scores anyway, so maybe you could try resetting to factory settings with the L-4.

U're right, as soon as I have the ROM

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

Is the machine showing a credit dot or when you go into the services menu does it flash any errors up on the DMD?
Next thing to check, go into switch test mode and watching the matrix on the left side of the DMD go through activating each switch - check on the matrix that only a single switch is being turned on. If there are any cases where multiple matrix lights are going on when you are pressing a single switch please take note of what matrix (row and column) they are.
Also can you confirm:
1. Every ball, of every game, when the ball (regardless of whether a metal or the ceramic ball) is ejected from the trough the machine says it is a Powerball - right?
2. If the ball in play is a metal one and the game is in Powerball mode, and you put the ball into the camera subway hole, does the machine continues to stay in Powerball mode or does it realise it's a metal ball and it stops the Powerball mode?
Maybe you could also take a video of these 2 steps and post for us to look at.

1. Correct
2. Very good test, NO it does NOT stay in Powerball Mode, please see video: PB_Off_AfterCamerShot.mp4, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gujlgafDiC8yTNZJRQeufwj6Tx9XMYVC?usp=sharing
And also the switch test: MultipleSwitchAtOnceActivationTest.mp4, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gujlgafDiC8yTNZJRQeufwj6Tx9XMYVC?usp=sharing

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

1. Correct
2. Very good test, NO it does NOT stay in Powerball Mode, please see video: PB_Off_AfterCamerShot.mp4, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gujlgafDiC8yTNZJRQeufwj6Tx9XMYVC?usp=sharing
And also the switch test: MultipleSwitchAtOnceActivationTest.mp4, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gujlgafDiC8yTNZJRQeufwj6Tx9XMYVC?usp=sharing

First great pics and videos - it really helps!

So while switch #26 seems to work in test mode, for some reason the machine is not seeing it during a game ...

But we have determined that switch #57 works both in test mode and game mode (that's a good start )

I saw in one of your videos there was no credit dot, so the game is not aware of any errors.

Did you do the below test?

Quoted from Manny65:

Next thing to check, go into switch test mode and watching the matrix on the left side of the DMD go through activating each switch - check on the matrix that only a single switch is being turned on. If there are any cases where multiple matrix lights are going on when you are pressing a single switch please take note of what matrix (row and column) they are.

Have you noticed any other "strange" behaviour during gameplay that is not normal?

Can you go into the setting and change "No Powerball" to "Yes" - does the machine still think every ball is a powerball in gameplay?? Then go back into setting and change it back to "No" - how does it recognise the balls now in gameplay? If you could video doing these changes and the game play it'd be great

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

First great pics and videos - it really helps!
So while switch #26 seems to work in test mode, for some reason the machine is not seeing it during a game ...
But we have determined that switch #57 works both in test mode and game mode (that's a good start )
I saw in one of your videos there was no credit dot, so the game is not aware of any errors.
Did you do the below test?

Have you noticed any other "strange" behaviour during gameplay that is not normal?
Can you go into the setting and change "No Powerball" to "Yes" - does the machine still think every ball is a powerball in gameplay?? Then go back into setting and change it back to "No" - how does it recognise the balls now in gameplay? If you could video doing these changes and the game play it'd be great

No, I did not notice any strange behavior in the game so far. I performed the No Powerball setting to yes, and then no back again, still the same behavior. In No Powerball set to Yes, : NOT every ball was recognized as powerball, so with this setting the behavior was correct. I will make some additional movies and post them this afternoon.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

No, I did not notice any strange behavior in the game so far. I performed the No Powerball setting to yes, and then no back again, still the same behavior. In No Powerball set to Yes, : NOT every ball was recognized as powerball, so with this setting the behavior was correct. I will make some additional movies and post them this afternoon.

Thanks for letting me know - no need to do the video of what happens when No Powerball is set to Yes.

If you could do the switch test looking for any multiple matrix lights when activating activating a switch please.

Also what brand is your Switch 26 proximity sensor board (I can't quite read it)? Is this new or was it previously working in your machine?

I notice that the proximity board has LEDs, could you take a video of the board and the bottom of the trough (similar to the picture below) when you play a game - load the trough with a metal ball, then the ceramic ball and then a metal ball. I would expect the LED to be on (metal ball detected) when you start you game, it should kick the first metal ball into the shooter lane (not start powerball) and the ceramic ball would roll up to the sensor but not trigger switch 26 (the LED would remain off). Plunge the first ball and catch it, wait for the ball save to go off (if it is on) and then let the ball drain. With switch 26 LED off, it'll now kick out the ceramic ball into the shooter lane (and start Powerball mode) while the next metal ball will roll up to the sensor and the switch 26 LED should turn on. Let the ceramic ball drain and play the last ball as well. Do the video from the start to the end of the game, this way I'll be able to tell what is happening by the game sounds recorded. Thanks we'll get this sorted out!!

TZ Switch 26 (resized).JPGTZ Switch 26 (resized).JPG
#22 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

No, I did not notice any strange behavior in the game so far. I performed the No Powerball setting to yes, and then no back again, still the same behavior. In No Powerball set to Yes, : NOT every ball was recognized as powerball, so with this setting the behavior was correct. I will make some additional movies and post them this afternoon.

Probably it is related to the recent trough problem I've had: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twilight-zone-problem-providing-two-balls-in-the-shooter-lane#post-6048848
But this problem is solved. But probably there is still something wrong with the trough

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

Probably it is related to the recent trough problem I've had: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twilight-zone-problem-providing-two-balls-in-the-shooter-lane#post-6048848
But this problem is solved. But probably there is still something wrong with the trough

Just double check that your trough switches are working correctly - empty the balls from the trough, go into switch test mode (switches 15, 16, 17 & 25 in the matrix should be off), drop one ball in (the matrix should now show 15 on but 16, 17 & 25 off), drop the second ball in (the matrix should now show 15 & 16 on but 17 & 25 off), drop the third ball in (the matrix should now show 15, 16 & 17 on but 25 off) - right?

Then run the test scenario from my last post, videoing the proximity board and bottom of the trough while playing a game. You may need to put some light into the cabinet to get the video

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

Just double check that your trough switches are working correctly - empty the balls from the trough, go into switch test mode (switches 15, 16, 17 & 25 in the matrix should be off), drop one ball in (the matrix should now show 15 on but 16, 17 & 25 off), drop the second ball in (the matrix should now show 15 & 16 on but 17 & 25 off), drop the third ball in (the matrix should now show 15, 16 & 17 on but 25 off) - right?
Then run the test scenario from my last post, videoing the proximity board and bottom of the trough while playing a game. You may need to put some light into the cabinet to get the video

trough switches are ok.
Did the video: 1_Metall_Ball_2_Ceramic_Ball_3_Metall_Ball.mp4, First Metall Ball, 2. Ceramic Ball, 3. Metall Ball.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gujlgafDiC8yTNZJRQeufwj6Tx9XMYVC?usp=sharing

What I've also tested:
I've disconnected the eddy board - then no powerball at all anymore.
But I get the Message check lef,t ul, right and ur flipper EOS.
After I reconnected the eddy board I still got check left and ul flipper eos. I got those messages sometimes and sometimes not. the EOS switch is fine, I've checked, so could there be a wiring side effect? Or a Fliptronic Board issue?
But then according to my understanding, the eos lie outside the switch matrix and are evaluated by the cpu, or am I wrong?

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

trough switches are ok.
Did the video: 1_Metall_Ball_2_Ceramic_Ball_3_Metall_Ball.mp4, First Metall Ball, 2. Ceramic Ball, 3. Metall Ball.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gujlgafDiC8yTNZJRQeufwj6Tx9XMYVC?usp=sharing
What I've also tested:
I've disconnected the eddy board - then no powerball at all anymore.
But I get the Message check lef,t ul, right and ur flipper EOS.
After I reconnected the eddy board I still got check left and ul flipper eos. I got those messages sometimes and sometimes not. the EOS switch is fine, I've checked, so could there be a wiring side effect? Or a Fliptronic Board issue?

I noticed the video shows 4 balls being launched - do you have your machine set to 5 ball game?

At the very start of the video, I assume that the first ball in the trough is a metal ball (I can't actually see the bottom of the trough in the video) and the LED should be on HOWEVER IT ISN'T - hence why the game is treating the ball as a powerball. When it is kicked in the shooter lane and played, the ceramic ball is at the sensor and the LED is correctly off. When the ceramic ball is kicked in the shooter lane and played, the next metal ball is at the sensor and the LED is correctly turns on HOWEVER at the 24 second mark the ceramic ball drains and while the game is showing the score bonus the LED TURNS OFF, so when goes to start the next ball it checks switch 26 which is now off and so the game believes it's a powerball.

So the issue seems to be the proximity sensor - it doesn't seem to be working at the particular time the game is checking it's status. I don't know the specific brand of board you are using and not sure if it has a fault or if it's just the position of the sensor and ball as the machine loads the ball from the outhole into the trough causing the issue (however this would be more inconsistent). Do you have any local friends with a TZ that you could swap the promity board with to test?

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

I noticed the video shows 4 balls being launched - do you have your machine set to 5 ball game?
At the very start of the video, I assume that the first ball in the trough is a metal ball (I can't actually see the bottom of the trough in the video) and the LED should be on HOWEVER IT ISN'T - hence why the game is treating the ball as a powerball. When it is kicked in the shooter lane and played, the ceramic ball is at the sensor and the LED is correctly off. When the ceramic ball is kicked in the shooter lane and played, the next metal ball is at the sensor and the LED is correctly turns on HOWEVER at the 24 second mark the ceramic ball drains and while the game is showing the score bonus the LED TURNS OFF, so when goes to start the next ball it checks switch 26 which is now off and so the game believes it's a powerball.
So the issue seems to be the proximity sensor - it doesn't seem to be working at the particular time the game is checking it's status. I don't know the specific brand of board you are using and not sure if it has a fault or if it's just the position of the sensor and ball as the machine loads the ball from the outhole into the trough causing the issue (however this would be more inconsistent). Do you have any local friends with a TZ that you could swap the promity board with to test?

Many thanks for your reply: Yes it's set to a 5 ball game.
I share your observation. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone nearby with a TWZ. I will clarify this issue directly with the board manufacturer I'll keep you informed - thank you already at this point for your very helpful support

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

Many thanks for your reply: Yes it's set to a 5 ball game.
I share your observation. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone nearby with a TWZ. I will clarify this issue directly with the board manufacturer I'll keep you informed - thank you already at this point for your very helpful support

Do you still have your old eddy board that you replaced 6 months ago and was it working?

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from pbwizard14:

Do you still have your old eddy board that you replaced 6 months ago and was it working?

Unfortunately not. It seems now that the Coil-Board has an issue. The Coil ferrite surface is damaged, although the assembly was made correctly in the largest possible distance.

CoilBoard1 (resized).jpgCoilBoard1 (resized).jpgCoilBoard2 (resized).jpgCoilBoard2 (resized).jpg
#29 3 years ago

Bam. This probably is your problem. Noise in the system if this component isn’t performing to spec.

#30 3 years ago

I will get a new coil. I suppose this will solve the problem. I'll update as soon as I have replaced the coil.
MANY thanks to you all, who spent their time for support, especially also Many65. This is very appreciated.
Without your great help I would not have been able to find the root cause of the problem.

#31 3 years ago

How is this a problem? Just hit the right orbit over and over again!

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

Unfortunately not. It seems now that the Coil-Board has an issue. The Coil ferrite surface is damaged, although the assembly was made correctly in the largest possible distance.
[quoted image][quoted image]

The damage the induction coil has suffered is common. When you position and attach the board to under the playfield, firstly check that a ball sitting in the trough isn't touching the coil but then move the coil slightly back a little as when a ball is loaded into the trough from the outhole it'll have momentum and quite often hit the coil before coming to rest and in doing so cause the damage. Once the board is fixed into place, you can then adjust it's sensitivity to ensure that it detects the metal balls.

#33 3 years ago

Will be curious if this solves the problem. I had some flaky issues with my TZ and I ended up having to fix the 12v power on the board. The capacitor that was part of the 12v was bad.

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

Will be curious if this solves the problem. I had some flaky issues with my TZ and I ended up having to fix the 12v power on the board. The capacitor that was part of the 12v was bad.

Did you have to fix the power on the coil board?

#35 3 years ago

When you know it, everything is simple...
Thanks to your tips, I made new holes in the plastic mounting of the coil board and mounted it as far away from the Right Trough as possible - and lo and behold, everything works fine again!
Thank you all for your help in solving this problem!

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from wbkwbk:

When you know it, everything is simple...
Thanks to your tips, I made new holes in the plastic mounting of the coil board and mounted it as far away from the Right Trough as possible - and lo and behold, everything works fine again!
Thank you all for your help in solving this problem!

Congratulations, glad to hear you got it sorted out. I find it strange that the proximity sensor LED would come on with a metal ball in the trough but only while the current ball was in play. Given the plastic covering on the induction coil was broken off, maybe a metal ball in the trough would touch the coil and short it however why would the sensor LED come on at other times. Anyway good to see it working again - all the best

#37 3 years ago

I had lots of problems with the (original!) Trough Prox. board on my TZ misreading powerblls and metal balls, and incidentally, the coil on minet is in an even worse state than the one in your pictures!

But after reading a LOT of postings online, all the smart money was on removing "that lousy two-pin connector" and soldering the cables direct to the pins on the TP board. Without much real faith, I did as everyone suggested and … hey presto! All problems gone and my TP board works perfectly now.

It looks like your replacement TP board doesn't have the connectors on it (?), so I guess that's not going to be an issue for you. But I thought it was worth mentioning here, just in case any other TZ owners are going crazy with this.

Really pleased you got your problem fixed!

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from CadEdinburgh:

It looks like your replacement TP board doesn't have the connectors on it (?), so I guess that's not going to be an issue for you. But I thought it was worth mentioning here, just in case any other TZ owners are going crazy with this.

That replacement board still has the 2 pin connector (highlighted with the yellow circle) however being new the contact with the header is possibly better. Definitely can be an issue if using the original board set.

TZ prox PCB (resized).jpgTZ prox PCB (resized).jpg
#39 3 years ago
Quoted from CadEdinburgh:

I had lots of problems with the (original!) Trough Prox. board on my TZ misreading powerblls and metal balls, and incidentally, the coil on minet is in an even worse state than the one in your pictures!
But after reading a LOT of postings online, all the smart money was on removing "that lousy two-pin connector" and soldering the cables direct to the pins on the TP board. Without much real faith, I did as everyone suggested and … hey presto! All problems gone and my TP board works perfectly now.
It looks like your replacement TP board doesn't have the connectors on it (?), so I guess that's not going to be an issue for you. But I thought it was worth mentioning here, just in case any other TZ owners are going crazy with this.
Really pleased you got your problem fixed!

@Cad: Thank you for your input. AS Manny65 mentioned my replacement board has the two pin connector as well. If I will have problems again in the future I'll consider soldering the cables directly to the board. Thank you for your hint!

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