Sigh..

All right; the TZ is still down as of today. I'm having a problem with the bottom lamp row; the start button, Ball lock 2 (door), the green lock insert, etc.

I have replaced transistor Q83 twice now. There is no way I've had 2 (er, 3) bad transistors in a row. And my soldering skills aren't great but I'm certainly capable of removing a through hole component and replacing it.

I am totally stuck as to what else this could be. The symptoms clearly indicate the transistor is shorted... but is there another possible explanation here? Could a diode down the path be shorted instead?

I have not changed any bubs, nor basically touched this game in months now because of this issue. I'm two steps away from buying a backup Rottendog and sending this out for repair.

Don’t want to distract anyone from helping @rdoyle1978, but can suggest what might be happening here?

I lifted the playfield and put it back down again and it went away. Left it for about 10 minutes on Switch Edge test with no phantom activations. Closed the coin door and it came back again, but I think it could be just coincidental?

A ground short on that row would trigger all the switches wouldn’t it?

All of the switches work and there are no errors on start up, and gameplay seems to be unaffected?

I didn't catch all the switches that went by, but if they are indeed on the same row, youalmost certainly have something shorting your switches. Maybe there's a screw or something that fell? On my old IJTPA if I raised and lowered the playfield, one of the wires for an under-playfield opto would catch on something,and it would make the game go crazy. That was a soldenoid, but still might be something similar.

Got an error for extra ball in gum ball machine. I have 4 in the gum ball machine and 2 in the trough. Is it simply a setting for the number of balls in the machine do I have off or is there another issue in the gumball machine?

Normally you have 3 in the gum ball machine and 3 in the tough

I manually took a ball out of the gb machine and placed it in the out-hole, Making it 3 and 3 I reset the game and it reloaded the ball to the gb machine.

Have you tried running the Gumball test? How many balls does it see in the trough? If it "sees" 3 in the trough and one in the outhole it will think there are only 2 balls in the gumball machine and load another one. To my knowledge the gumball machine itself does not know how many balls are in it.

Thanks.

The three switches pulsing are "Centre Trough", "Trough Proximity" and "Mini P.F. Exit". I'll do some more investigating tonight. Slowing down the video it almost looks like the row is disappearing and then re-appearing, rather than the whole row being shorted?

is your machine set to 4 "BALLS IN GUMBALL"? That's a v9.4 thing only i reckon.

I have it set to 4 in Gumball, plus 3 in the trough, so 6 steel and 1 power-ball = 7 in total.

I didn't even know you could do that.. 7 ball multiball is a bit nuts.

it IS the nuts

You have a trough switch stuck ON. Check the Gumball Test or the switch test. Likely, it's Trough Switch #4.

Game was originally designed for 7 balls. That's how I like my game set up.

I had a very similar problem with a switch matrix column flaking out that I could NOT pinpoint. I even bought a new Rottendog CPU to correct it. Turned out it was a broken spring contact inside the plug connector for the J206 plug. The "knuckle" was broken on one wire end, thus not making clean contact with the pin on the CPU pin header for only ONE wire (J206 pin 7) I replaced the 206 plug and fixed it.

This issue was VERY hard to diagnose. The only way I found it was pushing on ALL connectors one at a time when in edge test. it would make contact for that column (J206 is the column plug) while pushing on it only. In your case, sounds like the row plug for lamps, which is J133. I apologize if you already checked J133 and said so, but its worth a look.

My issue drove me NUTS for 2 weeks straight

-Dan

206 plug (resized).JPG

Interesting. I’ll give it a shot, I am stumped at this point.

Hoping somebody can point out a step I may have missed; I replaced the transistor but there are also some diodes in that circuit path on the board that I suppose I should check as well.

Yeah. I feel you. Keep in mind that these plugs are IDC, and I initially thought wire 7 had a bad IDC connection to the plug under the cap, so I re-punched it. when that didn't fix it, I looked a little further into the plug itself to see the "knuckle" springboard half INSIDE the female part of the plug at position 7 missing.

FWIW....

EDIT: when you replaced Q83, did that lamp row work at ALL, even for a few seconds, or never even turn back on?

Rdoyle1978,

I did also have an even more similar problem with my Dirty harry lamp matrix. In that case, I had only 5 of 8 of the lamps on a column out, which made it easy for me to pinpoint the area of issue under the PF based on where the on/off separation was. It turned out to be a plug pin header on a lamp board. Cold/cracked solder joint. Since your entire row is out, makes it harder to find

So the problem is that the lamps are on ALL the time. They are locked in, constantly lit super bright.

This is usually a symptom of a shorted transistor - but I’ve replaced Q83 twice now, and it’s the same thing. I either have a whole bad batch of TIP102s (unlikely), or something else is wrong - either something else is shorting the transistor as soon as I turn on the game, or is otherwise causing the issue.

I forgot to mention I have an LEDOCD installed; I should remove this from the mix, but I think since it is passing the signal and the lamps are on, it’s probably not affecting anything.

To be honest, since LEDOCD deals directly with J133, might not be a bad idea to disconnect LEDOCD while trying to diagnose this. Just my opinion.

Doyle,

You were saying that maybe something else in the Q83 TIP-102 circuit on the PDB is causing it, here are the chips, resistors and capacitors that in that circuit- maybe it's one of them? I wonder if that LM339 chip could be the problem.

Again, I'm no expert, but here's something to look at anyway....Where's Zaza when you need him!!

TZ J133-9 (resized).JPG

It's been a while since I dealt with my TZ light issues, (I'm also using both OCD boards), but I took a couple jumper wires to test each row/column light individually to help isolate. Jump between the board and the connectors one at a time. I don't recall if there is another GI plug be able to switch places with to see if the issue follows. (I'm not looking at the schematic, but could cause more problems if a short).

Double check your OCD settings for that row, just in case to make sure they aren't set for full bright all the time. Will they adjust brightness in lamp test?

Mine ended up being a transistor, which you have already replaced. Some of my lights would come on when not supposed to.

When you pull out those transistors, have you tested them out of circuit to see if they are actually shorted?

Great question - no, I have not. I think I still have one of them lying around - but I can test the one in the machine as well. When I last turned it on, I was so frustrated to see the lamps unchanged I just turned it off and walked away.

I will have to get in there with the multimeter

I checked my game over last night and counted not 6 but 7 balls in my game. I found this after all of the tests were ran ok. Dooh! Thanks guys!

Man now that I know you can have 7 balls I need to stick another in mine

How do you know it was originally designed for 7 balls incidentally?

Sample games had a decal:
"INSTALL 7 BALLS / 6 STEEL, 1 CERAMIC".

Curious - since I missed a lot of what you've done already - have you verified that the lamp row/column wire isn't itself shorted to ground somewhere? (i.e. That you may be chasing a red herring by lookin' at the board?)

What would cause the geneva switch in the gumball to reverse its behaviour? i.e. to be showing as activated all the time in Switch Edges, switching off momentarily when a ball is dispensed and the motor runs? Gumball works fine, dispenses and loads balls, no errors reported, so I'm not particularly bothered - just curious.

Is there supposed to be something plugged in j120?

B36D165E-5F52-493B-AE65-E93BCFFD21E3 (resized).jpeg

yes

01AE5527-6D4D-49DE-9C57-80C586A51999 (resized).jpeg

The connector looks like this...

tz (resized).jpg

If this is the case, I have not yet found it. The transistor was
Just the most Logical place to start, since the issue affects the whole row and it was suddenly an issue out of nowhere. This is really pissing me off!

What I suspect may be the case (and I really can't work on this until the weekends) is there is some diode near the TIP102 on the board that is blown, but I need to test that idea out

Remember to always check components when you remove them. I get how the transistor would be the logical place to start, and maybe it even measures a little "weird" when in circuit. But i always double check components i remove, as they sometimes turn out to be just fine. And then you know you have to look elsewhere, and can rule out that component.

Yeah - you have no Backbox GI.

Okay, was jsut checking - I know in some cases (though without my notes, I'm not sure if it's column or row) if a lamp row/column is shorted - like worn insulation, or a loose wire - it can cause this. Since you mentioned changing out the transistors (a number of times?) I was wondering if you had looked into this as a possibility.

Yeah - you have no Backbox GI.

Lol I don’t have the back box light panel installed yet.

There you go!

See, these are the EASY problems.

Back at it this weekend! Thanks for the help

So here’s an update ... I was working on 2 games at the same time, and had removed my LEDOCD from them both to minimise issues. ... or so I thought. I had so many days in between checking on these that I didn’t remove it from the TZ. And that turned out to be the issue. something is wrong with that board, I guess the fuse didn’t catch it. So yeah.. simple fix! Slapping my forehead here...

Not even sure I had to replace that transistor after all. Dumb!

Glad to see that it is fixed. Maybe LEDOCD guy can help you diagnose the problem within it. THose sets were NOT cheap

Howdy! How does everyone feel about this mirrored backglass product? Worth it?

https://classicplayfields.com/shop/pinball-backglasses/tz-backglass/

Herg already reached out. I haven’t gotten a chance to get him some clarifying info he asked for

I feel like I may be one of the few who actually bought one. It’s nice to have it, and the glass looks like a good print job. But the main issue with it is that is FAR too dark. Not enough light gets through, and the backbox just looks a bit dim.

I added some pretty powerful LEDs and it just makes the backglass look spotty, where there are now these super bright halos of light right next to dark spots.

The mirroring looks good, but it is not noticeable when the game is on - it looks real nice when it’s -off- but IMO this seems to defeat the purpose. I admit I am not exactly clear on how mirroring “should” look. But the bar glasses I’ve seen definitely pop more than this.

As always, YMMV.

I will say that if you’re loooking at a reprint translite or this backglass - get the backglass all the way.

The reprint translite I got from PPS was absolute trash. WAY too dark, looked like it was photocopied from someone’s phone it was so blurry. I ended up keeping my original, yellowed translite until I got that backglass. So: in order of quality:

-nice original translite,
-CPR backglass,
-crayon-drawn repro by a 5 year old,
-PPS translite

Are you using frosted LEDs? My experience is they eliminate the halos on other backglass and translite.

Yep

Edit: I just checked and I guess not exclusively. However the issue persists regardless

IMHO, after studying CPR's Meteor backglass, they are not actually using 'mirror', but a highly metallic silver paint - so no, you won't get the same effect, sadly.

I'd echo the sentiment that the mirrored backglasses are too dark. I have them in my TZ and TAF, and both look much darker than a translite. I have LEDs in both, though they aren't super-bright, so I might try messing with some different bulbs. They do look nice, but I probably wouldn't go for another one.

Thanks for the responses gang. I’ll keep my regular translite in place.

The mirroring on my new STARS backglass from CPR is prefect when comparing side by side with my original backglass mirroring and the art is not too dark and no halos, so the mirroring process may be different, but the results look great. Example - I can count my nose hairs in the reflection. I guess you have to consider each backglass from them, case by case.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-backglasses-added-at-cpr/page/9#post-5470351

Don't know about TZ or TAF, but other repros from them - like the Meteor and .. hell, another game I can't recall - are definate not mirror. It LOOKS like it, because the reflection you're seeing is from the glass and not the mirroring behind. In either case, even if it is a case-by-case basis, I'm not going to risk it.

Well, I joined the club as of this Saturday. Will post pix soon.

It was a high-end restore. Restored cabinet with new decals and a cleared new playfield. The playfield is far better than those of modern pins. Looks like a sheet of glass. My only effort was to fix the clock. Took a couple of days, but it's fully working now. I will post a separate post on that effort to help others in the future.

Wanted to get folks opinion on a few mods I want to do:
1. Vote for Pinsound? I'm really going to do, just wondering what speakers you recommend. FF? Pinsounds speakers?
2. I want external volume control. Recommend pinnovator volume control with Pinsound? Does it work correctly? I'm referring to the one that goes in the door.
3. Color DMD. Yes. Just curious if you prefer setup for smooth LCD or dot matrix look?
4. Vote for LED OCD? Seems mixed on this thread.
5. Magnet for ramp "catcher." whatever you call it. Seems like an easy inexpensive mod to keep ball from ricocheting off the ball "catcher."
6. Some form of a non-glare glass. PDI or maybe just Voodoo. Thoughts? Preferences?

Those are the key upgrades I want to do. After I get these key upgrades, then might look into some of the other mods.

Thanks for your advice and tips in advance.