(Topic ID: 326461)

Twilight Zone newbie -- need help fixing ground short row 6!

By OptoBoy

1 year ago


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There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

Hi Pinside,

This is my first post. I recently bought a really nice, fully restored TZ machine. It worked perfectly, with daily use by myself and my son, for about six months, and now it doesn't feed the ball in to begin the game.

Test report shows:

check switch 26 trough proximity
check switch 36 left outlane
check switch 46 mini p.f. right (2)
check switch 56 gumball exit
check switch 66 mid. r. 5 mil. 1
gnd. short row 6 wht-blue r6

I understand this probably has something to do with the row 6 switches, but despite my best efforts with the manual, I've been unable to locate said switches for the visual inspection. Where are they? What should they look like? My guess is they are somewhere up behind the backbox, and possibly near the area where it says J207?

I'm fairly hopeless on the ohm meter, although I do have a working one in my possession. I'm not averse to purchasing a soldering gun and learning to use it, too. If the easiest fix is getting a new cpu board, that would be fine as well.

Any help, words of wisdom, hints, or clues would be much appreciated. Looking to get back into the zone...

With thanks,

Optoboy

#2 1 year ago

Page 2-50 and page 2-51 in the manual shows locations by number.

Study the names a little. Left outlane - where ball drains off the playfield far left.

mid. r. 5 mil. 1 - middle target of 5 millions ones.

Probably a problem on your CPU though, and what caused it. Pinwiki has help to check that.

LTG : )

#3 1 year ago

If J207 is for row 6, unplug it from cpu. If ground short remains the problem is on your cpu.

You work on the game recently with it turned on ?

LTG : )

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

My guess is they are somewhere up behind the backbox, and possibly near the area where it says J207?

No, they're all on the playfield. If you go into switch test remove the switch connectors on the mpu board, J208/J206 (they might be plugged into something else there, there are parallel connectors, so sometimes 208 goes into 209, and 206 is in 207.

If you unplug the 2 connectors (mark first so you can put them back where they came out) and you still have the ground short, problem is on your mpu board.

#5 1 year ago

Betting chip U20 on the MPU

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

Betting chip U20 on the MPU

Yep, me too. Don't want the OP to get ahead of himself though.

For the OP if you do still have the ground short.... don't make the MPU board your first foray into soldering. Likely you will destroy it.
New board is between $150-200 (do not buy the pinball basement version, that company has issues you can research here on pinside.... I've never heard of a company being banned from pinside until this one was)
There are also lots of people that can repair it.

#7 1 year ago

Wow, thank you all for your quick responses! I actually saw 2-50 and 2-51 but couldn't make the jump from that schematic to the real world. This is my first time putting eyes on solenoids, etc.

Working on familiarizing myself with the playfield.

I am going to dive back into the machine to locate the MPU board (which I saw a picture of online), and see if I can try to understand what a switch is supposed to look like.

A couple of strange things have happened since I've been opening and closing the machine (carefully, with it off).

The switch 26 trough proximity error has disappeared.

A new switch 73 error has appeared.

This seems concerning, since 73 is not in the same row as 26.

Or perhaps it's all just an issue with the MPU board, in which case I would be happy to attempt a replacement.

Still, the OP wants to learn how to inspect switches, and will attempt this first and foremost.

Thanks again. Working on it,

Optoboy

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Yep, me too. Don't want the OP to get ahead of himself though.

Totally fair. U20 may be a socketed chip. If so, a flat head screw driver to gently pry it out and a new chip inserted may br all he needs. If not socketed, definitely send to Rob Anthony, Chris Hibler, or CoinOp Cauldron for proper repair.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

U20 may be a socketed chip.

Not from the factory on a TZ MPU.

#10 1 year ago

Ok, so I unplugged J207 and J209, and the ground fault remains.

Quoted from slochar:

New board is between $150-200

Is the board easy enough to replace? Can someone recommend somewhere I can buy one of these? I saw a used one on ebay, but wasn't sure if it was good.

Also, for clarification (sorry) -- the switches are below the playfield, but the MPU board is behind the backbox?

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

the switches are below the playfield,

Yes.

Quoted from OptoBoy:

but the MPU board is behind the backbox?

CPU - Yes.

Quoted from OptoBoy:

Is the board easy enough to replace?

Yes. But if what ever caused this, you'll damage a new board. Were you doing anything to the game when this started ?

If your CPU is in good shape, have ChrisHibler fix it. Otherwise get the board's part number from the manual, enter pinball then part number into Google, see what turns up.

LTG : )

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Were you doing anything to the game when this started ?

The only thing I can think of is that when the ball wasn't ejected into the shooter I might have tried to pop it out with a screwdriver while the machine was on. Fully understand the foolishness of this in retrospect. However, the ball wasn't ejecting, so the problem probably preceded the meddling. Besides that, I didn't even go under the playfield.

Quoted from LTG:

get the board's part number from the manual, enter pinball then part number into Google, see what turns up.

I'm finding something that seems to be a universal board but which doesn't look exactly like the one I'm looking to replace. Will keep looking or else send to Chris Hibler.

Thanks!

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

I might have tried to pop it out with a screwdriver while the machine was on.

Bingo. A good chance you shorted high power to the switch matrix.

Check with DumbAss to see if he made a CPU for TZ.

LTG : )

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

I'm looking to replace.

https://www.pinballlife.com/rottendog-williamsbally-wpc-mpu.html This will work. Though I'd get yours fixed if clean and in good shape.

LTG : )

#15 1 year ago

Oh, I so much hate Rottendog driver boards, power supplies and MPU boards. Always a hard time finding some parts for some of the boards when they fail.

Quoted from LTG:

If your CPU is in good shape, have ChrisHibler fix it. Otherwise get the board's part number from the manual, enter pinball then part number into Google, see what turns up.

I second that! getting the board repaired.

#16 1 year ago

Thank you so much LTG! No more jamming screwdrivers into the playfield -- got it!

I will update once the board is either replaced/repaired.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

No more jamming screwdrivers into the playfield -- got it!

That is fine as long as the power is off.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Check with DumbAss to see if he made a CPU for TZ.

OP: I have WPC-89 CPU boards available. I build complete boards on demand (typically in batches) and I am taking time off in December and half of January. It is extremely unlikely I will have a board ready before I leave. As it stands, I am going to struggle to finish my promised boards.

If you want a board more immediately I would recommend a board from barakandl (AndrewS).

https://nvram.weebly.com/wms-wpc89-mpu.html

He's a good guy. Makes a great product at a great price. Provides great support. You can't go wrong with him. The board is surface mount though so you should be aware of this if you care about SMT vs THT.

However, repair is almost always cheaper than replace.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

That is fine as long as the power is off.

The absolutely safest thing to do is to check that the LEDs on the power board are all off. There OEM power board has a "bleed" resistor for the 50V capacitor (that capacitor isn't large so it discharges fairly quickly) but the 20V capacitor is large and discharges through an LED.

#19 1 year ago

Apropos, if anyone knows a pinball repair maven somewhere in the Cocoa Beach area, I would love to enroll in a one or two hour master class on TZ sometime, perhaps even during the replacement of the CPU board.

I went ahead and ordered a new board, express shipping. I'll take out the old one, send it in for repair, and re-sell the extra one to another TZ head in need.

Two months without a multi-ball... just when I was on the cusp of 2 billion!

#20 1 year ago

Update:

I received Rottendog MPU board in the mail, removed the old board, and effectively made the connections. Do I just turn it on, or is there something else I need to do?

I plan on sending the old board, which looks really good, in for repair.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

Update:
I received Rottendog MPU board in the mail, removed the old board, and effectively made the connections. Do I just turn it on, or is there something else I need to do?
I plan on sending the old board, which looks really good, in for repair.

Normally, in the past, you had to transfer parts over from the old board. Post a picture of it please.

#22 1 year ago
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#23 1 year ago

Was wanting to see an actual picture of the board, not a stock photo. Did you transfer the 3 parts over that are missing from the IC sockets?

#24 1 year ago

Yeah if you just plugged it in, you still need to transfer TZ Roms. Without those, the CPU has no idea what game it is for

#25 1 year ago

Sorry -- here's the old board. How do I transfer ROMs, and which pieces are they? Any tricks (what tools to use, what to be careful of) would be much appreciated!

IMG_3103 (resized).jpgIMG_3103 (resized).jpg
#26 1 year ago

You will need to transfer U6 at LEAST, the others around it as well, depending on what the Rottendog board doesn't have.

#27 1 year ago

I am assuming the stock photo in post 22 is the board you bought off ebay. Comparing the two boards. You will need to replace U6 and U4 ROM chips. Carefully, slowly, pry the chips up from the ends with a small flat screwdriver or nonsharp knife. Do a little pry on left side, then do a little pry on right side. Keep prying side to side till it lifts out. Making sure to not bend or break any of the pins.

Next make sure is to carefully, slowly place the chip into the new board in the same direction that you took it out. Gently push it into place, till it sits all the way down. Hopefully, you will not bend or break any pins off in the process. Then proceed to the second chip. Thank your lucky stars that you do not have to attempt the square ASIC chip. Put in fresh batteries and put a date on them. Change them yearly, like a fire alarm.

When all the plugs are back in place. Double check them again. Then turn game on. Good luck.

The switches are little black plastic things with a resistor soldered to them and 2 wires attached on the underside of the Playfield. On the top of the Playfield, they look like bent paperclips, that the ball rolls over. They can also be leaf switches that look like 3 metal blades attached to a small wooden block.

Something I did when I started was to go to Marcos pinball parts site ( https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/6 ) and scroll through the list of parts on all 68 pages. That will give you a better idea of names of parts and what they look like.

#28 1 year ago

Tophervette, thank you! I am going to try exactly this and will report back. I also very much appreciate the descriptions.

#29 1 year ago

Ok... bad news. I replaced the mpu board, made all connections, and carefully replaced the U6 and U4 ROM chips. I am 99% sure I put them in the same direction as they came out.

When I turned on the machine, it made a sickly sort of high-pitch whine and the screen didn't activate. Here's a shot of the backbox area.

I'm not sure how these fuses are supposed to look, so I'm attaching a picture of those as well.

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#30 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

I am 99% sure I put them in the same direction as they came out.

Did you go by the notch on the chip and the mark on the board ?

See picture example.

LTG : )

closeup-ic-polarity (resized).jpgcloseup-ic-polarity (resized).jpg
#31 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

I'm not sure how these fuses are supposed to look,

Top and bottom one are blown. Pull and check fuses with a meter.

LTG : )

#32 1 year ago

You didn't put the ASIC chip in.

Get some help. You've done some damage to CPU and IC's.

LTG : )

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#33 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Get some help. You've done some damage to CPU and IC's.

Too bad - does this mean more possible replacement parts? I tried calling around and no one in the area could help me fix this thing. Could be seeing this machine on the for sale board soon...

#34 1 year ago

If anyone can recommend someone in Orlando or Cocoa Beach who can do a housecall, I'd much appreciate it. Otherwise, my wife is nixing my pinball habit for good.

A sad day for the OP.

#35 1 year ago

I am sorry that I assumed you bought the board with the ASIC already installed. It is like an additional 100. That is how I bought mine, because special tooling needed to pull ASIC out and install. Yes, you need a pinball mechanic. Call a pinball distributor locally. Google it. Ask them for Pinball mechanics phone number.

This is the board with ASIC already installed you should have bought.

ebay.com link: itm

s-l500 (resized).pngs-l500 (resized).png
#36 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

Too bad - does this mean more possible replacement parts?

I'm sorry yes.

If you have the ASIC from your original board, you can use that. I'd get help to be sure things are installed right. And get a new CPU and chips.

LTG : )

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

Too bad - does this mean more possible replacement parts? I tried calling around and no one in the area could help me fix this thing. Could be seeing this machine on the for sale board soon...

What you are experiencing is very common with people who recently purchased / acquired a machine. It's called impatience. Yes. That's tough love. This is exhibited on this forum quite commonly.

Quoted from OptoBoy:

If anyone can recommend someone in Orlando or Cocoa Beach who can do a housecall, I'd much appreciate it. Otherwise, my wife is nixing my pinball habit for good.
A sad day for the OP.

Again, signs of impatience. You still have about 20 days left until Christmas. That's plenty of time to resolve your issue. I went to someone's house the other day to service his machine. He wanted it fixed before Christmas. I am trying to schedule a visit to someone's office and house to fix both of those machines. He wants them fixed before Christmas.

Potential paths forward:

  1. Purchase a PLCC extractor tool and move the ASIC (yourself).
  2. Purchase a new ASIC and insert it into the new board (yourself).
  3. Send both boards out to a technician who has the tool and can move the ASIC for you.
  4. Purchase (another) new board with the ASIC already installed.
    • There is one manufacturer and merchant that sells this but I generally don't endorse them due to their previous product creation choices.

There are probably also other or permutations of the above options. If you choose to move the ASIC yourself then take care as it is possible to damage the IC when you remove it.

I have had people send me their old boards with EPROMs and/or ASIC for transferring to a new board. I provide this service as a courtesy to people who purchase complete boards. This allows me to test the board and send it out as a truly plug-n-play board.

The option that provides the quickest solution for you is to purchase a new ASIC and install it yourself. Take care with the orientation. The PLCC has a notch that lines up to the RIGHT (as you view the board upright). One corner is different compared to the other corners and the PLCC socket should be correspondingly different.

Do NOT discard the old ASIC. There's nothing wrong with it. These ASICs are getting harder and harder to find (although I know Mr. Pinball has plenty left). The supply is NOT infinite. These used to be $25. Now they're averaging $100.

#38 1 year ago

Your original board is entirely repairable.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
https://www.youtube.com/c/ChrisHiblerPinball
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Your original board is entirely repairable.

Thanks Chris -- I was planning on sending the original board to you once I got the other one transferred in.

I think my main question going forward is whether turning the machine on without the ASIC chip caused damage to other components of the machine. My visual inspection and picture of the fuses was just one thing I noticed, and according to LTG two of those fuses are blown. I'm wondering if this happened during my attempts at repair or if that was possibly a problem before I opened the machine up.

Either way, I'm feeling like maybe buying the extractor tool and trying to move the ASIC chip would be the quickest way to move forward, but I'm worried about the blown fuses. I guess I'll remove and replace those as well, but I'm just sort of worried that I'm digging myself in deeper every time.

Meanwhile, despite my best efforts, I can't find anyone to do house calls. Will keep updating as I go.

Less optimistically,

Optoboy

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

I think my main question going forward is whether turning the machine on without the ASIC chip caused damage to other components of the machine. My visual inspection and picture of the fuses was just one thing I noticed, and according to LTG two of those fuses are blown. I'm wondering if this happened during my attempts at repair or if that was possibly a problem before I opened the machine up.
Either way, I'm feeling like maybe buying the extractor tool and trying to move the ASIC chip would be the quickest way to move forward, but I'm worried about the blown fuses. I guess I'll remove and replace those as well, but I'm just sort of worried that I'm digging myself in deeper every time.

Those fuses do not look blown to me. The only measure of if the fuse is blown is with "electron vision". That is a multimeter. Pull one end out of the fuse holder and test for continuity (resistance = 0 Ohm).

The CPU board operates on low voltage. You really can't do much damage to the board in isolation. If you apply higher voltage to the board you can damage it. Without the ASIC the processor should remain in reset.

#41 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Those fuses do not look blown to me.

Top one and bottom one are definitely toast. Top one burned in the middle, see the darkened windings. Bottom one contracted and burned in the middle. Pulled out of one end or the other.

LTG : )

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The CPU board operates on low voltage. You really can't do much damage to the board in isolation. If you apply higher voltage to the board you can damage it. Without the ASIC the processor should remain in reset.

That's heartening. I'll give it a go on the ASIC. Already switched the U4 and U6, so if there's nothing else I'll use the ASIC from the old board and see how that goes...

More to follow, thanks to all of you for your patience here.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from OptoBoy:

That's heartening. I'll give it a go on the ASIC. Already switched the U4 and U6, so if there's nothing else I'll use the ASIC from the old board and see how that goes...
More to follow, thanks to all of you for your patience here.

You need a special tool for the ASIC. Pins on all sides. It is not as easy to remove as the regular ROMs

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from Jmckune:

You need a special tool for the ASIC. Pins on all sides. It is not as easy to remove as the regular ROMs

This is what I use. Pops them out nicely.

LTG : )

puller (resized).jpgpuller (resized).jpg
#45 1 year ago

Removing an ASIC



Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

#46 1 year ago

Thank you LTG and Chris for the ASIC repair guide. I've order the tool (2 day delivery... an extra $25, but chalk it up to unmitigated impatience) and will study the video carefully. You guys rock!

- Optoboy

#47 1 year ago

Just chiming in here to say that while your experience is quite common for pinball machine owners (they break, and especially the TZ is known to be 'temperamental' because it is a widebody) - most first time owners are eased into servicing and repair activities much more so than you are. A bulb or a switch stops working, the playfield gets a bit dirty, a rubber snaps. You unfortunately are forced to skip all these beginner challenges and go straight to having to fix board issues. While it is great that you are not too intimidated to have a go at it yourself, as you are learning (the hard way, albeit with support from all the right people here on pinside) fiddling with boards does require a structured approach based on a deeper understanding of what (not) to do. It is safe to say that if you are a human, mistakes will be made during this learning process. There will be many highs (in my case: "I just replaced a driver transistor on the power driver board and it now works again, I'm the king of the world wooooo") and sometimes immediately followed by lows (also in my case: "in the process of putting the fixed board back my idiot self may kinda sorta have accidentally shorted another board which now needs to be sent off for repairs by someone more skilled than me, d'oh"). Fortunately these machines are built like tanks, and if a part cant be repaired, it can be replaced, at the cost of a bruised ego and/or wallet. Just hang in there and take one step at a time, and do pay attention to whatever is being suggested by the folks in this thread. Some of them have really saved me in the past - the willingness and patience with which tech knowledge and advice is being shared here is the primary reason why I keep coming back

#48 1 year ago

Well, I received the ASIC tool and transferred the chip into the new board. Turned on the machine and... nothing. Seems like more damage must have occurred by turning on the machine with the incomplete board. Not sure where else to turn at this point. Called a couple of repair people in Orlando and left messages.

2 weeks later
#49 1 year ago

Update!

So I finally connected with a savvy out in Orlando kind enough to come to my house and have a look at the TZ. He had suggested a fully populated Pinsound board to replace the MPU, and he went ahead and installed it for me.

With the new board in, we effectively returned to square one. I.E. ground fault on the white-blue wire, with a variety of switch errors. This time the errors were 36, 46, 56, 62(!), and 63(!).

We checked the fuses and all of them were functioning properly -- no blown fuses. Possibly my picture above did not show them in the proper light, but yes all fuses were good.

We then proceeded to test the blue white wire from the MPU all the way down the line to switch 26 and found continuity throughout. We also chased down the ground wire and found it to be good.

However (and I believe someone might have mentioned this as a possibility) - some of the chips in the opto board itself were very hot, and some of the multimeter tests were failing at the opto board.

So... diagnosis led me to ordering a new opto board. I ordered it express delivery and feel comfortable enough to replace it myself.

Learned a lot from my new friend and will post another update once the opto board is in. Feeling confident!

- optoboy

#50 1 year ago

Also -- the reason the Rottendog board wasn't working with the ASIC, U6, and U4 chips transferred was likely because during my transferring of the U6 chip I damaged one of the corner pins.

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