I'm really surprised by how many people, including current LE owners, are saying that the Premium looks better than the LE.
Are you guys insane?
(Topic ID: 112181)
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The Walking Dead (Pro)
Stern, 2014
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Quoted from jalpert:You forgot to add more money in Stern's pocket. They are holding the threat of no Premiums over our heads to sell out the LE's, then they release the Premium when they cashed in on the LE's.
It's basically a bait and switch.
Exactly.
It's ridiculous. It only helps Stern and their distributors to sell more LEs quicker based on the fear that they will sell out and no Premium model will be released. It's a BS model from the consumer's standpoint.
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:It's not BS. It's good business sense.
I saw this coming. Why didn't you?
WTF are you talking about? Who said I didn't see it coming? I was told by a Stern distributor 2 weeks ago that this was going to happen.
WTF does that have to do with anything that I said?
It doesn't affect me regarding TWD since I haven't bought one. I still think it sucks. Why don't you?
Quoted from metallik:No, they may just like green over brown. The LE cabinet looks like puke/blood/dirt, and the brown trim is kinda ugly. This one has actual sideart.
The side art on the Premium is the worst part by far, with the big AMC insignia on it. Terrible.
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:Your comment implied shocked anger.
Shocked anger?
Oh my God dude, you are hilarious.
Please put me on ignore. I implore you.
It doesn't suck....because it makes sense.
It only makes sense if you are Stern or one of their distributors trying to make as much money as possible by manipulating your customers by instilling fear in them that they must buy the LE otherwise they won't make a Premium and you will lose out.
I'm glad that you are in favor of this model. Good on you.
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:Check out our exchanges in this forum from September. You were wrong. Deal with it.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/will-there-be-a-twd-premium-yes-or-no/page/2
lol
Yes, please everyone, read that thread! That is the thread where the Captain got banned for his personal insults!
Thanks for reminding everyone what you are really about.
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:Nice try, RobT(roll), but you failed to acknowledge you were way off on TWD Premium!
Says wonders about you.
Way off? I said I doubt it would happen. I was wrong. Does that make you feel superior to me?
This is like a carbon copy of the crap and personal insults that you posted in the very thread that you linked to.
Grow up!
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Yup, I will never order another LE. IF I miss out I go pro. They just lost me as a top tier buyer.
Wait.
Wut?
The Captain says that this makes "good business sense". So how you could say this???
Quoted from TomGWI:I would of bought the premium also if initially announced. I happy with the pro and won't be getting the premium.
Wait. Wut?
The Captain says that this model makes perfect business sense. So how can you say this?
Quoted from gweempose:I agree 100%. The only reason the premium wasn't officially announced at launch was to increase the chances that they would sell out all the LEs. I'm not surprised at all, but I'm very disappointed in Stern. I had almost convinced myself that they were done with the premium thing, but I shouldn't have let my guard down. One thing is certain, I will NEVER pre-order another Stern as long as I live. They decided to bite the hand that feeds them, and I will not reward them for this.
Exactly.
This is just another example of why I won't ever pre-order a pin again. Sadly, this even goes a step further though, because I could have played TWD, decided I liked it, and then ordered an LE only to have the Premium announced after doing so.
Yes, we all knew that this could happen, but it still sucks. I think we'd all prefer to know exactly what all of the options are up front...before ordering.
Quoted from epthegeek:Why would anyone assume anything other than: "If the LEs sell out rather quickly, Stern will likely make a premium version" based on their history?
I must have missed the posts by those who assumed something other than this?
We all knew it was a possibility. Still sucks.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:The industry has pushed away front money and basically guaranteed this position from its customers. Sad
Exactly.
It's funny to me how some people think it's nothing but great business sense. There's definitely a potential down side to what they are doing, and there are numerous posts by buyers in this thread indicating what that downside is.
More people will be taking a wait and see approach.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:Based on past buyer 'oaths' and 'claims', Stern is already out of business from all the boycotting due to crappy artwork, cheap machines, inflated pricing, unfinished code...
I think more people will CLAIM to take a wait and see approach... then Star Wars will be released and ZOMG PINBALLZ!!111
Actually I am someone who was originally in on a preorder of TWDLE given that it was my most desired theme...but I came to my senses and decided to stick to my oath of no pre-orders.
This has just confirmed that I made the right decision for myself. It's also another data point for others to start doing the same.
Obviously there will always be people who will pre-order. But that number is shrinking.
Quoted from flynnibus:How does one go from 'no pre-order' = no sale at all?
If you were willing to buy a game sight-unseen.. you wouldn't be willing to buy the same game after you've had it in hand?
You really don't see how it can go from a sale based on a pre-order to no sale at all after seeing/playing it?
Obviously the pre-order is a blind purchase based on faith that you will enjoy the pin. If you wait to see/play it, you may not like it and decide...wait for it....no sale at all. 
Quoted from T7:Nobody is saying that - you are very good at twisting things
You have quite a unique logic in many of your posts (and you post a lot). Pretty much the same as P.T. Barnum, and a number of car salesman type individuals I know. Let me sum it up... If you are stupid enough to let me rip you off -> then you are the only one to blame and you deserve it. Do you sell high dollar items to retired senior citizens or maybe a stock trader?
It is a FACT that a lot of potential/actual customers are upset at this time regarding this sales/marketing strategy. This is a FACT and your BS doesn't change that.
Bottom line - upset customers is NOT good for business -> Business 101.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:Yeah but you and I both know most don't hold to that (there's 10 manufacturers out there depending on it haha), and now this is a new oath of "not buying models of machines until the one I really want is available".
IMO the original (my variant on the oath at least) was less about pre ordering and more about not buying unfinished machines at all, ever again. As far as I can tell, TWD Pro, Prem, and LE are currently, unfinished so none of this makes me bat an eye yet - my wallet is 100% safe regardless of how many mods and versions they release.
But like I said....this is just *another data point* to add to the list of reasons not to pre-order a game!
I.e, unfinished code is one reason. Add the potential release of a Premium version down the road as another reason.
When the reasons to not pre-order keep adding up, it is going to continue to get easier and easier for people to keep their oath not to pre-order a game!
Quoted from Rarehero:While I don't see a late-announced Premium for TWD as a big deal, it's clear that this is just another thing to alienate loyal customers who have no problem throwing down big money on these games.
That sentence seems contradictory to me.
If this is something that will alienate loyal customers who throw down big money on these games, it seems like a pretty big deal to me.
Quoted from Rarehero:It definitely seems that many of the "usual suspects" who buy games at launch, often LEs (me, Rob, Gweem, Hwawonyu, etc) have jumped out of the pool.
Add people like Eskaybee, Smassa, GProtein etc, and it is still obviously a very small sampling, but it still seems like an indicator that fewer people will buy these pins at launch.
Quoted from Goronic:Again, I don't understand why making more versions of a pinball game is so bad.
It's not!
I'm all for it. I'm not one of these people who are calling for the end to the LE model. More choices = more better as far as I'm concerned.
I just think that people want to know what all of the choices are up front.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:Oh absolutely, I agree and it's 100% why I don't have a version of TWD in my house as we speak. Now I hold the cards for making an informed decision if and when I do.
Exactly. We are in the same boat. And even though we made that decision (which was right for us), that doesn't make me any happier about Stern's decision to go about it in this manner. I'm certainly not going to take the approach that a few others have taken in this thread, which is basically to laugh at those who bought the LE or Pro and say that they have no right to be upset.
Quoted from littlecammi:I bet a lot of people would pre-order Tron Premium VE if they announced it, though.
Come on now. That's not a "pre-order" in the same sense of a pre-order that we are talking about in this thread. We are talking about buying something that you've never had the chance to play.
There are tons of Tron's out there. It already has proven itself as a highly desired pin, and people can play it before buying if Stern ever runs it again.
Quoted from ozno:So no bicycle girl moving ramp on the Premium? I love that feature (now that it is lit)
Why would you say this?
Stern Premium models mean that they take the PF that is in the LE (less a signature) and put it in a cab with different art, translite, and armor. Game play features are identical to the LE.
Quoted from TimeBandit:The line I'm talking about is the line between risk taken by the manufacturer and risk transferred to its customer base. The points you make DO make sense. There's no arguing that what they have done is sensible for them. But what they did here was force their customer base to make an uncomfortable decision . ALL the risk in the decision to wait for a possible premium was borne by the customer base. Stern took NO risk on this, and that is what is pissing people off. Stern could have taken a LITTLE bit of risk by announcing all three models initially.
Well said.
Quoted from BoJo:I think we owe all the LE owners a big thank you. Without your purchase there would be no premium.
Truth. But think this through. Based on the posts that we've seen from LE owners in this thread, how many of them will buy the next LE release, or the one after that?
If everyone starts taking the wait and see approach, we won't be getting any more premium versions because the LEs won't sell out.
Quoted from flynnibus:Or they go back to LEs being a very limited number and drive demand up that way and sell a premium anyway up front.
This is exactly what many of us would prefer.
Quoted from flynnibus:If anything, people should recognize the number of possibilities KEEPS INCREASING. So buy what you want, not what you think will go away.
Huh?
Is this some kind of psychobabble? Buy what you want, not what you think will go away? 
Quoted from flynnibus:If people simply bought the game they wanted, or passed on games they didn't really want... this whole thread would be 2 pages long. Instead we have people buying on fear of what prices will be.. or thinking games will sell out in weeks.. etc. People are buying out of self-consuming fear vs buying what they want.
That's the entire point. How the hell can someone simply buy the game they wanted if it didn't exist and they don't know what all their options would be? They didn't know what a Premium version would look like if it were offered at a later date.
Why are you pretending that this is a simple black and white issue, when it clearly is not? Just because some people who bought the LE or Pro version of TWD would have preferred the Premium version if it were available means that they bought game that they didn't really want? Really? Perhaps they wanted it given what their current options were at the time. This included the possibility that the Premium would never be made, which played into their choice of buying the LE or the Pro. Or nothing.
Quoted from flynnibus:"they had to"??? Why? Was the world going to end if they didn't buy their game right then? It was a brand new title.. the game isn't even 3 months old *NOW*!
Again... if you bought a game you didn't want... the burden is on you. The only rush to buy was self-imposed.
Oh my God dude. Just stop.
Your hyperbole is getting old. Seriously, "was the world going to end"? 
Quoted from MapleSyrup:I can't believe the outrage about this announcement. I own a TWDLE, and I couldn't care less how many versions Stern releases of this or ANY pinball machine. If the hobby continues to grow, I hope they make Vault Editions of EVERYTHING.
It has always struck me as EXTREMELY strange that there is an expectation that these machines should hold their value, or increase, and that Stern has the responsibility to carefully maintain this illusion of scarcity... In what other sector does this occur?! (I know, you can give me a few insane examples... I don't care).
Why begrudge a company for trying to sell more of the things they make??!!
Tons of thumbs up for this post, and I don't disagree with it, but it's pretty much missing the point of discussion in this thread the way I see it.
The assumption in this post is that people are upset about the Premium announcement because it will have a negative impact on the value of the LE version. I must have missed the posts where people were complaining about that.
I think the issue has more to do with the way in which Stern is now going about the Premium release, and not offering it up front. Buy the LE to get the full featured game, because if you don't, the Premium will never be made.
Quoted from mnpinball:Star Trek LE is a true example of an LE model.
At 799 made? I don't think so.
Quoted from Rarehero:The number made doesn't take away from its unique extras....I bought STLE because of the rad extra lighting stuff, not cuz of the limitedness.
Never said it did. As you recall, I bought STLE for those same unique extras myself.
He said it was a true LIMITED edition. I say nay nay because of the number of them that were made.
Quoted from TimeBandit:The first world problem argument, and the stop whining argument, and the should not be investing in pinball argument, etc, etc, are all oversimplifications of what is annoying people.
So damn true.
Quoted from Chambahz:Someone please explain this to me:
You buy your LE version.
Stern releases a Premium.
Do you enjoy your LE any less?
If you're going to tell me you're pissed because your pin isn't worth as much now, beat it. If that's the case, you shouldn't be buying pins without complete code -or that's a risk you're taking anyway.
<sigh>
Why do people keep saying that LE owners are pissed with the Premium announcement because their pin isn't worth as much now?
Can someone point me to the LE owner(s) who has/have said that?
It seems that a lot of people have become so overly engrossed with thinking that a vast majority of Pinsider's care so much about the value of their games that that *must* be at the heart of any criticism of the Premium announcement. I just don't see that as being the case here.
I didn't buy an LE (or any other model), so I can assure you it isn't the basis for my criticism either.
Why not just throw in the statement that "Pinball machines are not investments"?! I think it's been at least a couple of hours since we've seen that posted. 
As I said before:
Quoted from RobT:Tons of thumbs up for this post, and I don't disagree with it, but it's pretty much missing the point of discussion in this thread the way I see it.
The assumption in this post is that people are upset about the Premium announcement because it will have a negative impact on the value of the LE version. I must have missed the posts where people were complaining about that.
I think the issue has more to do with the way in which Stern is now going about the Premium release, and not offering it up front. Buy the LE to get the full featured game, because if you don't, the Premium will never be made.
Quoted from underlord:not knowing a premium was a last minute decision from the bossman.
Last minute decision?
Doubtful.
I'm going to join Gweempose and offer $500.00 to the first person to call me out on me ever pre-ordering a pinball machine again.
I'm going to make an exception for Dutch Pinball though. Those guys really have their shit together! 
Quoted from gweempose:Am I the only one who was surprised to see that the premium has the fish tank on the playfield? This is strictly a "bling" feature, and it exactly the type of thing that is usually reserved for the LE's.
When has there ever been a single difference between a Premium PF and an LE PF?
Like I've said before, the Premium has the LE playfield stuck in a cab with different art, trim, translite etc. PF is the same.
Quoted from T7:Stern has lessened the value proposition of the LE enormously compared to past games. Examples: AC/DC LE was only $600 more than a premium, TRON LE only $1200 more than a pro,
Considering where we are now, it's really hard to believe that was the case, but it was. A friend paid $5200.00 shipped for his NIB Tron LE.
Quoted from TimeBandit:It's not "letter of the law" stuff. People don't need to wronged at the level of the fine print in a written contract to be pissed off. Why is this so difficult for you? You really should lay off bashing on the victims here. You are starting to look like a complete asshole. And I am saying this from the position of someone who WON THE BET. I did not order based purely on my bet that they would release a premium. And I was right. And so I won. So what?? At least I have enough empathy and intelligence to understand the position of people who are annoyed. Get some empathy, and stop wailing on people who have found the position uncomfortable and difficult due to the less than totally upstanding behaviour of a manufacturer.
I couldn't agree more.
Like you, I could come here and gloat about "how smart we were" to not have ordered a pro or LE (and come across as assholes in the process), yet that isn't the point at all. Despite *knowing* that this could happen, it still sucks!
There was plenty of discussion here saying it sucked before a single TWD had shipped, when Stern said that they "might do a Premium if the demand is there". It's the whole method of doing the Premium in this fashion that is the issue.
Perhaps "deceitful" isn't the right word to describe what they are doing. I'd just say that it's kind of fucked up not to know what all of the options are up front, so people can make a more informed decision.
With this new model in place, more and more people will take a wait and see approach. Probably not what Stern wanted to happen on future games.
Quoted from Xerico:I have to disagree. If Stern attempted to sell TRON LE at the $8K mark (which is roughly $3K more than the $5,000 mark), then there would be no LE market today.
Contrary to popular belief, TRON LE was not the home run smash it is today immediately after Stern released it. People could still get NIB TRON LE 6 months after it was released for high $5K, low $6K range.
The price of $5,000 for a NIB Stern was crazy talk at the time TRON LE was released. Many people questioned the sanity of those us who bought it. It was crazy to consider to buy any Stern for $5,000 NIB at the time. Even Spider-Man Black was only $4,800 NIB at most places.
Once collectors had the game in their possession, word of mouth spread about the brilliance that was TRON LE. Only then did people begin to realize the true nature of a limited quantity edition.
While I do not doubt that the price increase was directly related to the success of the LE program, it was not because Stern left money on the table with Tron. It was because the LE program started breeding speculators. And speculators started selling LE machines for a tremendous profit before the game was even delivered.
So while Tron definitely started the LE program. The speculators opened up Stern's eyes on the pricing, IMHO.
Marcus
I agree with this, but you did leave out JJP and the price that they were charging for WOZLE. This only served to open up Stern's eyes on the price that they could charge even more.
And here we are. Stern LE's now sell for nearly $8k. Crazy.
Quoted from Pimp77:You change your Avatar too much...I was just getting used to seeing TWD instead of Tron!
I've kind of given up on wanting to own TWD, and Alien is the pin I'm most excited about now so I figured it made sense to change it.
And nobody changes their avatar more than Odin!
For background on why Odin is using my old avatar, see here (start with post 126):
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-huo-tronle-1-owner-madison-wi-9k/page/3
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