The MSRP is $1100 more but I think if you went and got quotes you would find that the difference between the 2 is actually much less (as in the premium costs more now than just 3 months ago)

The rest here I agree on. Where is the free shaker with the LE and custom siderails?

If a person has to go to a third party forum and potentially comb through hundreds of posts to get general product practice information for a manufacturer/seller, then there is something wrong with the communications from that manufacturer/seller.

This is simple stuff. If people want pinball to grow again as a hobby, at a minimum, one needs to drop this pretense of people needing to dig deep on the internet for basic information.

If Stern does not have a simple caveat/disclaimer/notice/description on their website describing and discussing general product information for a posted pinball theme or for all pinball themes on the site (i.e., an overview of pro/le/premium/etc options and what they mean, with current and potential future availability) to educate the consumer and provide them with basic information, then they risk upsetting their own consumers, which does a disservice to the pinball community and more importantly themselves.

And sure enough - Stern doesn't have that on their website. Thus we see the outcomes of such omissions in this thread.

Many complaints in this thread are very valid. Of specific note, I've counted at least three relatively new enthusiasts and recent purchasers of NIB TWD comment in this thread that say they are disappointed with how the TWD machine roll-out has occurred with the premium release recently. Two of those members purchased within the last 1-2 weeks and have yet to receive their machines, and the other was recent as well. Reasonable research was done, with discussion with distributors, they were not pre-orders or rushed purchases, but the whole premium machine issue was not apparent nor identified through no fault of their own (remember, these are new enthusiasts to the hobby). And there are going to be a lot of other people with the same experience who are not members on this forum to report it. It's even an issue with with both Pro and LE buyers as there are bound to be some LE and some Pro owners who wish they would have known about the potential option of a less expensive full playing field machine (now the released premium). Without a general product information note as discussed, this will happen over and over again with new enthusiasts that look to buy a Stern NIB machine. And that means some of these people will not buy NIB machines any longer. That is not good for Stern or the pinball hobby.

Even some members here with pinball hobby purchase experience have been caught off guard by this new Stern practice and it shouldn't matter if it was known on this forum in a few old threads. That method of knowledge transfer is not reasonable. Period.

With TWD, for example... at the beginning when the Pro and LE machines were offered on their website Stern should have had a caveat/disclaimer/notice/description saying that a premium machine or other machine releases may become available in the future at Stern's discretion (since that was their plan all along). Such a statement would protect Stern's flexibility in machine production and provide more information to the consumer than they are doing right now on the website. It may be more open-ended than some people here on the forum want, but at the very least it would serve to educate and inform the new and/or less-knowledgeable enthusiasts that the hobby really needs in order to grow. This caveat/disclaimer/notice/description should be common practice with all theme machine releases, from the first time a theme machine is offered on their website.

A simple caveat/disclaimer/notice/description on Stern's website can address some basic issues here with little impact to Stern. This solution won't fix everything. But compared to the black hole that is happening now, openly communicating and educating their customers and buyers can help everyone involved. And the text can always be changed to suit Stern with new theme machine offerings, if they decide to change their development protocols or related activities.

I see some other notable posts on proposed ideas. I kept this one simple to allow Stern flexibility and at least deflect some negativity from their current black hole of no information on their own website.

I also saw a recent post acknowledging the TWD premium early one (see post at end of last page). Great info but wasted as it is a single post on this forum in a single thread, and is very hard to find. Again, third party websites for info = bad. Plus for example, this was my search for TWD info on this forum... it won't let me post a link. but here is the gist, https to the link of pinside.com/pinball/archive/the_walking_dead_le/forum/1 . Note that the TWD premium thread linked does not come up at all in that thread search for the forum. Again, third party forum posts for information = bad. And a basic fix as described earlier isn't very hard.

_{Post edited by dzoomer: grammar fixes}

I'm actually not that upset, but taking this side of the argument because I feel people that are upset are getting bullied unnecessarily. I also think it's possible Stern didn't do this on purpose. I'm trying to suggest a change for Stern, so they don't piss off their customers. Also, I didn't actually make any accusations, I'm just trying to verbalize what people are upset about. I'll try to state it more clearly.

- Stern knows the price points of all 3 versions (if they make all 3)
- Stern knows the LE version will cost $1100 more than a Pre (if made), and will get the following
----- diff color armor, mirrored translite, different art, plaque
----- NOTE: everyone at Stern most likely realizes this is not worth $1100

It "looks" like Stern new the LE's were a very bad value compared to the Premiums (the extra high profit margin) and purposely decided to make sure they sold LE's first to maximize profits. People would NOT be upset if they felt they got something of value for the extra $1100. In the past, LE's were only $600 more, and they came with extras that were worth something. Artificial Scarcity is created because Stern will only make 600 LEs - that is artificial scarcity plain and simple, and there's nothing wrong with that by itself. But when you combine artificial scarcity and very bad value (/extra high profit), then remove the scarcity as soon as the profits are made -> it can look like it was planned.

IMO it's very possible that Stern did not plan this. Regardless, it would be better for them to change the strategy so that customers do not feel Stern is manipulating them. I know for a fact other companies do this on purpose to maximize profits. The issue for the company is when it is taken too far, they start losing customers.

This is my suggestion - and they don't even have to give early purchasers anything.

Just sell Pros + Premiums -> if a game is popular, make LE's and charge an extra $1K
Plus they can sell mods

Lets hope all of this leads to a Pro and Premium model full stop.

Ad mods as required. It'll be easier to make money off the mods instead trying to sell the LE.

In any case, now that Stern have decided to sell mods, its going to be difficult to differentiate the LE enough to keep LE buyers happy.

OR, a timed LE for the first X weeks' orders. After that we'll make Premiums.

This is crazy. I wanted a limited edition with no people from the show anywhere on the cab or backglass & got what I wished for. The other 2 options I'd pass on so I'm glad they did what they did. Your all nuts if you think LE buyers didn't get what they asked for. Now shut up & let's see what's coming next.

Congrats on your new found temperence and wisdom. Pinside figures to be a lot less amusing now. But the over-under on how many machines get released before your next pre-order is still ZERO.

Best post in this nutty thread...............Joey

I think you may be conflating your impact on Stern. If Stern really cared about the average Pinsider they'd conduct themselves a lot differently.

If Stern releases an enhanced version of Tron Pro with the lighted ramps the circle will be complete. Pinside will be a fun read that day. Lately not so much.

Someone else already said this but to me it is the no-brainer way to handle this and make everyone happy. Show all three models from the beginning in the feature matrix, but put an asterisk by the Premium that says it's pending demand for future release. This way everyone knows what's planned and can decide accordingly based on look/features. Stern still gets their high margin on LEs and people know that there will never be a Premium if enough don't pony up and buy LEs. The only downside would be if Stern pooches the LE and everyone holds out because the Premium is superior. But if you're Stern and you're that concerned about making the more expensive product better, then you have bigger problems.

I got a TWDLE pin shortly after it was announced. Although I love the pin and the show, I would be lying if I told you I wasn't upset over the quality of the pin. The ramp slams and the chipping around the WW base is terrible, especially on a new game. Hopefully Stern will send out the fixes on the ramp soon, although it is a little too late for my pin since I already got a nice scratch on the playfield from the ramp slams. (I never thought about looking for the damage until I read about it from other pinsiders). I didn't think about looking for the ramp damage due to the fact that I owned a BSD in the past and I don't recall the ramp damaging the playfield.

That being said, I would have probably bought a premium if I knew DEFINITELY Stern was going to release one. At the time, I wanted the best version of TWD pin because of my love for the show and the LE was the clear and "only" choice/option to me. To me, I just don't think the extra money from an LE to a Premium was worth it when the only thing you're going to get is a certificate and a plaque. After all, it all comes down to color choices when you decide between a premium and an LE. Now, if Stern would have released the Premium version, then the LE with the extra mods they just recently announced (topper, side art decals, shooter head), NOW we're talking business. IMO, the extra $1000 plus bucks you would have spent from the premium to the LE is now justified.

I bought a Tron Pro recently from a fellow pinsider who had the thing modded out. Again, I am really happy with the Pro because it looks just as good, if not better, than the LE because of the nice additions. I had a chance to get a Tron LE for about $6400 bucks when they first came out, but I passed on it like an idiot. Now, you can't look at one without close to $10,000 bucks in your pocket. That's why I think a lot of pinheads (including myself) jump the gun on the pre-orders because we would hate to pay extra on the same pin we could have gotten a lot cheaper before the price sky rocketed. I know it's a hit and miss strategy on NIB purchases.

I know Stern (or any other business) is out to make the money, and I can TOTALLY respect that. I jumped on the bandwagon when they announced my "dream pin" and I will probably do it again. Except this time I will be waiting a little longer to see what the final product line will be. After all, from my years of looking and buying for pins, I know I will eventually find one. Lesson finally learned on this experience.

This certainly seems reasonable. Its kind of what they do now but more formalized I guess.

Except that it's all defined up front and nobody has to guess. It still presents the same gamble for buyers if they want to wait for a potential Premium, but at least they could see it and decide whether they like the potential Premium or the LE better.

For TWD, I would order a Premium over LE no question (if I wanted one).
For ST, I would (and did) order an LE over a Premium by a huge margin.

The point is, you have to speculate on what the product might be whereas they could solve that problem and the asshurt feelings by showing it up front.

Now, if they blow out sales and want to release a Luci-style premium 2 years down the road as an additional art package, that's fine too. Hell, how many times has George Lucas re-re-re-re-re-re-released Star Wars on VHS/Laserdisc/DVD/BluRay?

Bullied is a pretty strong word. Who is getting bullied and how?

This is a veiled accusation in and of itself. You say Stern didn't "do this" on purpose. This indicates you feel that Stern did something wrong, either purposefully or accidentally.

Also, again, an accusation (overt or not). You are implying that there was some conspiracy by everyone at Stern to charge more for their product than what it was "worth". No pinball machine is "worth" several thousand dollars if taken as a sum of its parts. All that matters is if it can sell for that much to a customer, and obviously it could and did regardless of your opinion of worth.

What exactly did Metallica LE have over Metallica Premium that made it worth so much more? Mustang? AC/DC, Star Trek? You ask most who bought a Premium over an LE, and they would tell you that they thought the Premium was a better value. Also not sure how far back you are going to pull this $600.00 difference from. Look at Stern's website with the MSRPs for their last few titles. Nothing out of line with TWD with Mustang for example, so this increase occurred before TWD.

I get tired of the term "artifical scarcity". Virtually anything manufactured could be called "artificially scarce" as long as the raw materials exist to continue building them. Semiconductor manufacturers are stopping manufacture of different chips/transistors. I don't see lots of people bring up "artificial scarcity" into the conversation.

Any "limited edition" of anything made his artificially limited to try to create collector value. Anyone of adult age with several thousand dollars of disposable income should already be well aware of that. They also did not remove any "scarcity" of the LEs. They have not made anymore LEs.

Big of you to admit that Stern is not necessarily up in its smoke filled room twirling the ends of its evil moustache.

Might work, and it was mentioned way back when Stern first announced TWD. As far as making "everyone happy" though, that is never a no-brainer and probably not even possible with pinheads.

I think saying they don't care is an oversimplification. Where I work we care about our customers. However sometimes we need to make choices/prioritizations that make some of our customers angry, and we have to accept we may lose them. At the end of the day we also have a committment to our employees, shareholders and bottom line that trump making every customer happy.

That being said, I do believe Stern has plenty of room for improvement with how they engage with the collector community and I am reasonably sure they know that just by reading these kinds of threads.

I'm not sure what "conflating" means, but I assume you are saying that I am overestimating the impact that a single customer can have on Stern's bottom line. The thing is, it's not just me. Go back and read through this thread. There are a ton of people that are upset, and many of them have flat out stated that they are done pre-ordering games.

No argument there.

Fair and true!

This is why threads like this are so important. A lot of people are quick to jump in and completely dismiss any grievances that people have, but feedback like this is necessary in order to evoke change. Hopefully, Stern reads threads like this and takes them seriously.

Plenty of posts had a bullying nature to them - cry babies - fools - etc.

This is not a veiled accusation at all. A combination of things occurred, which may or may not have been planned. I specifically stated multiple times that they may not have been planned.
Fact: a lot of customers are upset. Fact: Stern could do something different to make their customers happier next time around.

Don't put words in my mouth -> I never said anything to imply everyone at Stern was in on a conspiracy. Let me state it simply: Premium Upgrade: $1800, LE Upgrade $2900 - what's the difference for the $1100? Answer -> different color trim, mirrored translite, artwork and signatures.

I indicated that most people at Stern or elsewhere would think the LE upgrade (at $2900) has a very bad value compared to the Premium upgrade (at $1800).

Since you asked, here are the upgrades with cost from Premium to LE (all include artwork, and plaque):

AC/DC: Real Backglass, Shaker Motor, Laser cut armor, better speaker: $600 more
Metalllica: Real Backglass: $600 more
STLE: Real Backglass, Shaker Motor, Animated Backlit Laser Cut Enterprise LE Side Armor, LED Illuminated 6" Stainless Steel Star Trek Shield Emblem on Backbox, Powdercoated Steel Lower Arch, Stainless Steel speaker panel, artwork: $1100 more, but you got a lot
Tron (upgrade from Pro): Lighted Ramps, Chrome Armor, real drop targets, and much more: $1200
TWD: Mirrored Translite (not a real backglass): $1100 more

The TWD LE upgrade @ $2900 is over 60% more than the Premium upgrade @$1800 for a mirrored translite as opposed to a real backglass. The value proposition variance should be pretty obvious.

You're wrong, it means the manufacturer decided to limit the number AND let the consumer know that the number is limited up front - Limited Edition is just this. You actually contradicted yourself in the next sentence (where you are correct). I also noted there is NOTHING WRONG WITH DOING THIS.

The Premium and the LE are essentially the same product for a majority of buyers. The LE has almost no "extras" over the premium, yet costs 61% more than the premium upgrade ($2900 vs $1800). By ONLY selling the LE version, and (timing is important), immediately unveiling the Premium after LEs are sold -> the removed the scarcity of the Pre/LE upgrade from a pro.

I've really tried hard NOT to bash Stern here. I saw a lot of posts from people that are upset (and have a legitimate reason to be) that are being made fun of by a majority of posts. The combination of how things were done this time around IS different from any previous game. It is only because of the COMBINATION of things that makes the customers unhappy, which Stern can easily fix, and I've suggested EASY fixes that will actually make Stern MORE Money in the long run, because happy customers buy more. FYI - I'm heavily involved in pricing related consulting for multiple fortune 500 companies, so I have experience in what I'm discussing.

Bottom Line: There is a Sales/Marketing issue here that should be corrected for Stern to keep happy customers. If Stern can understand why and make a correction, they will be better off.

Stern can do either of these and have happier customers...
- Provide decent value to the LE upgrade (versus the Premium Upgrade)
- Don't start with ONLY the LE for sale (artificial scarcity of a Pre/LE upgrade)

Stern did BOTH of the above with most/all previous releases, up until TWD.

Just by indicating that it "may" have been planned, you are accusing them of "possibly planning". Say maybe they didn't 100 times, but if it wasn't an accusation then there wouldn't be any "possibly" about it.

Not putting words in your mouth: From your earlier post:

You are saying that Stern deliberately chose to release the LEs first, knowing they were going to release Premiums later, because they were knowingly providing bad value on the LEs. Or, there was a consipracy at Stern to rip off the consumer in your opinion. Oh sorry, "maybe" there was a conspiracy...

TWD has powder coated rails as well does it not? Also the "mirrored translite" is a red herring, Mustang LE didn't have a mirrored translite iirc, and some people are saying the last couple of "mirrored" backglasses were translites.

As for comparisons, right from Stern's website. Mustang: 8495 vs 7495, Star Trek: 8795 vs 7495, 8595 vs 7495. Not seeing a big difference here in price swings. Tron was several years ago, you cannot really fairly compare. Mustang being the most recent is probably the best comparable, and nothing is out of line there.

From Wikipedia:

Artificial scarcity[1] describes the scarcity of items even though the technology and production capacity exists to create an abundance.

Also, I never said you thought it was wrong (no need for the all cap yelling), I just am tired of the term being thrown around as I think it is being over generalized.

I will grant you that for "some" buyers this is indeed the case. Saying it is the "majority" of buyers is based on supposition not fact, you are using hyperbole to try and sell your argument. You do this several times in your posts, assuming to speak for some silent majority. All of Pinside doesn't cover the majority of Stern sales, and I am not convinced that a majority of Pinside who bought TWDLE think the LE and Premium are the same.

Anyway, I am out after this, it is obvious we are now just arguing to keep arguing...

The green looks amazing, even better than the red pro cab. Le... well.... its a cab with art on it at least.

To me the image of Rick holding the 44 is the indelible symbol of this show and belongs on the cabinet prominently. The LE doesn't have that and I would never buy any Pro, so that makes the Premium best suited to my taste. I would then put on the upgraded side armor and the Fish Tank Topper for sure. The topper would be redundant with the Premium translite so I would have to get a Pro translite. Custom game that has best of all worlds! Too bad I don't have the cash lying around at the moment. Might have to sell a few games LOL.

I'm glad you are out - I don't want to keep repeating myself because you keep twisting my words.

My comparisons on value are accurate and you just ignored them. I don't have enough info to include Mustang, but the games I did compare show the value differences pretty clearly.

My posts are the same as if I were talking to an executive at Stern and advising them why I think customers are upset AND what they could do about it to have happier customers in the future. I said certain things "looked" bad to a significant number of customers - which is true (just look through this thread). I'm not bashing them - TWD is great - just tweak the marketing plan a little to avoid alienating actual customers.

Remember - Most of the upset customers ACTUALLY BOUGHT THE GAME, most of the negative comments to those actual customers are from people that DID NOT BUY THE GAME AND many of those posts said or implied you are stupid to have bought the game. Do you think this is what Stern wants -> a majority of potential customers that all think it is stupid to buy a brand new Stern LE?

Here is a future conversation at Stern thanks to everyone being so pissed off:

Comptroller "Well, it looks like the whole pinball community is pissed off at us over the LE/Premium concept according to Pinside. Customers are threatening to boycott future LE games. This could get cost us some serious profit".

Gary "No problem. Give them what they are asking for. Raise the price of the premiums by another $600. This will guarantee our profit margins and minimize the cost difference between the premium and LE games. That should make them happy".

LOL "Pricing optimization for maximum profit" - this is not it

This is my only beef with how it went down. I am still happy with the deal I got and don't plan on selling, so not worried about it effect on future values. Again, happy with the pin and plan of keeping it for awhile. Just would have chosen a premium if available (like its been announced on every pin that I can think of in the past). All good and heading to the basement to kill some more walkers!

Simple and requires use of common sense?

We pinheads have a unique ability to suspend all sense of reality and common sense when it comes to purchasing a pin.

That's something I'm trying to change for myself.

Well, not really. The LEs also come with side armor. That's not cheap to add after the fact.
There's also the fact (pay attention now, cause this is big) that you're buying a Limited Edition. That's pride/bragging rights/whatever you want to call it, and is rarely worth the price tag from a simple cost of goods point of view, no matter what the product.

Not sure what your point is here. I'm a non-buyer for TWDLE but I had considered buying one and through that process, considered many of the details that most of these disappointed owners are complaining about. A non-owners view probably wouldn't have much weight if we were arguing about how good the rules are currently, for example but if we're talking about Sterns three models and the release of them, how is my opinion worth less than someone else's? (Someone else who has clearly demonstrated they didn't understand all the factors before buying, or they wouldn't be disappointed right now?). The matrix displayed everything on the LE. It didn't take much to figure out that there wasn't much extra bling on this title, which is not far from the Metallica or ACDC pins.
And I don't recall anyone stating that these buyers were stupid for BUYING the game, but yes, maybe for COMPLAINING about it afterward.

As I recall, one of your solutions was to only sell Pros and Premiums, cutting out Sterns highest margin products. Hmmmmmmm, I can imagine how well that meeting with the executives would go.

You say "I'm not bashing them", yet you've accused them of inciting fear over lack of available pins, despite them telling a Pinsider who called them 3 months ago: "If demand warrants it, we'll consider a Premium version".

Lastly, your whole take on this issue is just one that screams "We want more.", and nothing else.
You don't seem to grasp the fact that Stern is the only solid pinball company around right now that can produce more than 1 pin a year. There's a reason they were the only ones who made it through the dark years. Nobody's driving Ferarri's, or taking long holidays. In fact, a friend of mine has gotten to know many of the employees there and tells me they're all "really into pinball". Ie: they're working there because it's their dream, not just a job. They care. They want to do their best.
When Walking Dead came out, people complained about the Redneck voice. Rumour has it, (according to "Guy"), Stern had a different voice for call-outs previously. If that's true, it's a great example of the fact that things happen behind closed doors and they're almost never explained to the public. (I'm guessing licensing issue on the voice example but just guessing)
With that in mind, and the fact that Distributors are sitting on expensive overstock, I choose to believe that Stern is looking at a different release model because it's better for their distributors, and not because they've suddenly decided to rip off their customers for an extra $1,100 or whatever the price is.

You however, are welcome to think otherwise.

Did TWDLE not come with an extra coat of clear on the playfield? None of the LE owners are mentioning this?

My understanding is no. Was it supposed to? First I've heard if so...

I think only LOTR LE and AVATAR LE ever got an extra layer of clear from Stern.

I thought after the designer signed the LE playfield they got an extra coat of clear?

I'm pretty sure they sign it before any clear goes on.

I just checked my e-mails with the spec's ...
METLE & STLE has "Designer-signed playfields xxxxxxxxx Signature under Hard Coat
TWDLE has "Designer-signed playfields featuring John Borgs signature"

Look's like no extra CC on TWDLE

I was thinking the same thing too. It seems like a solution that most people would find acceptable.

Stern doesn't always put that in their feature matrix, but it's been common in most of their LEs to add extra clear. XM LE and METLE have extra clear, and IIRC Tron and ACDC do as well, in fact Tron LE has extra silver highlights on the playfield artwork. All the pros look like a thin layer of orange peel textured clear, but their LEs tend to be smoother. Due to not promising in writing in the feature matrix it would make it easier to not do it, but it's been one of the selling points of the LE for many buyers.

That is true. I think it's a shame that when the LE's were first started it was the complete package with everything included. Think it only took 2? before.....oops no shaker motor then mirrored translite instead of real backglass( this was a biggie for me as it goes back to the day when they were all real glass) now MAYBE (can't confirm so I don't want to make an untrue statement) no extra CC. An LE should imo be complete with all the bells and whistles. It's what we asked for and got it. But not for long. Shame really. There are some really good arguments made in this thread. None would be needed if we just got the completed full house game. Just a thought.

You'd think then that Stern would advertise this then?
Hard to be a selling point if your not sure if it's really there.
With LOTR LE & AVATAR LE this was featured in the matrix. So that's why i say those are sure.

If you look at the playfield surface and especially the in-lanes, it sure looks like there is more clear coat on TWD-LE machines. So I would say yes, they did....I am comparing it to other Stern and Stern LE machines I have as well. This was one of the first things I noticed when I received my machine.

I never said this. I said to offer Pros + Premiums first, and add LE's later OR offer all 3 OR add value to the LE vs Premium. Please stop misquoting me.

It seems you think discussing what people are upset about is automatically considering bashing or attacking Stern. All I've done is tried to articulate what people are upset about.

Come on, that's BS and you know it. I have said over and over 3 solutions (see above) that only gives the customers more in one of them, which is adding value to the LE. I also said they had the value in every game up until TWD - so that suggestion only went as far to say do what you have done in the past. Stern could add $200 worth of stuff (mfr cost) to the LE and customers would be happy - they just need something tangible. Alternatively the other fixes don't cost them anything.

Stern is doing a great job on their games, and I am a big supporter in more ways than you know. All I've said is they should address this one issue of unhappy customers by changing something versus the way this rollout progressed. Is it possible to articulate this without you saying I'm bashing them?

Free fish tank topper for every LE buyer.........next...............Joey

What's all this talk about a mirrored translight? Please explain.

TWDLE has a mirrored translate, not a screened backglass

Do I get to be mad if they come out with an LE that I really want ~3 months after I bought the Premium already?

In my best Dr. Strangelove voice ... "The whole point of the extra clear is lost, if they keep it a secret! Why didn't they tell the world?"

I will say that I have no idea if my TWD LE has more clear than the pros, but the clearcoat is fantastic on it.

I thought this was proven not to be the case and they it IS a screened backglass with an adhesive diffuser (white vinyl basically) applied to the back of it?