Metallica and Iron man are very similar in layout... anyone claiming Metallica plays like Iron Man is on glue, or hasn't played one or the other (or either of them)

Layout is only part of a game's 'fun' equation. Rules and theme can more than compensate.

Yeah.. that pic clears it up

Pinball circus please!!! TWD looks super cool

Well not really...
I gotta be blind cuz I'm still not seeing the standup

On the left I see a curved plastic with a face on it. On the right a see a curve lane guide

TWD-LE-Playfield.jpg

Here?

su.jpg

Oh shit.. I was talking the other 'loop'

Similar shot to Orthanc tower on LOTR (but a standup instead of saucer)?

I hope it's not another game where you just hit stuff to get points. This could be a great theme if done right. I'd like to see about 6 or so zombies advancing towards you - you must hit their targets to send them back. Hit them enough and they are "dead". They get to you and that ball is dead. I hope the code is as good as the theme.

Lol tron is the reverse of xmen

Lyman is coding it , I don't think you have to worry about that.

+ extra shots, look again. XMEN is a tougher game, layout wise than any stern IMHO. If its a brick fest, you are missing shots. Its a players game! And I am a people person! Can’t you people see that!

2008_0703AP0042.JPG

2008_0703AP0043.JPG

2008_0703AP0044.JPG

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OK, OP. I am a previous owner of AP and probably put over 1000 games on it.(I know, I'm a glutton for punishment) There are really very few similarities between the 2 layouts. One glaring similarity is the crossbow/laser and the way the ball is diverted towards it. This appears to be yanked directly from AP. Another similarity is the two rollovers at the top and the pop arrangement below them. BUT, that is pretty much where the similarities stop. The way the ball gets to those lanes is totally different. Ramp flow is exactly opposite of AP. On the left the toilet shot just spits back out to the orbit, ala WOF - on TWD it is the ramp shot.The center shot on AP goes up a short ramp ala LOTR and drops out the back - on TWD it is a bash toy with a magnet in front. The left ramp shot on AP is the inner loop back to the pops on TWD. The AP scoop is basically in the same spot as the Well Zombie, but one is a scoop and the other is a bash toy(with magnet on the LE). Where the right ramp shot is on AP - on TWD there is an orbit shot through the pops ala Tron. The right orbit shot on AP is basically where the right ramp shot is on TWD. Then the Woodbury shot which returns to the shooter lane is nothing but 2 stand-up targets on AP. Oh yeah, I forgot the three drop targets on the left of TWB are three stand-ups on AP. Will they play similarly to each other. I highly doubt it.

TWD-Pro-Playfield.jpg

I have only played AP a time or two. There does not appear to be anything wrong with AP layout or theme.....I don't know the rules of the game, but always assumed that is where AP lacks.

Maybe someone w/ some computer savvy can do an overlay of the playfields to compare the shot vectors . IMO these games will play nothing alike.

when people first saw pix of iron man, they said it looked like AP.
when people first saw tron, they said it looked like FH.

now, after people have played the games, do any of them actually PLAY like their accused title copycat?

I'm a big xmen fan. It is nearly as tight as Avengers though. Avengers is the toughest shooting zero flow stern game I have played.

It depends how you look at it. I like AP, but it's too similar to IM for me to consider getting it now that I have an IM. But, unlike TWD they used the *exact same* ramps for IM that they used in AP. Borg talked about doing it because they were looking at saving money, they just modified them slightly.

TWD I see so amazingly few similarities between it and AP that I honestly have no idea what people are talking about. The right ramp in TWD appears to be in a totally unique location - where the outer loop would normally be - and none of the other shots are the same. They might be in the same general location, but a shot to the toilet (in AP) and the left ramp (in TWD) produce two completely different results. The scoop shot (in AP) versus the Walker is completely different even if they are in similar spots.

I don't understand what some people are looking for in a game. TWD looks to try to break the mold by putting a ton of stuff in locations that are usual shot locations, but it doesn't look like they should be the correct results for their shots. I think it looks really intriguing because of that. But I don't see any likelihood that TWD will play anything like AP, or for that matter IM.

:lol:I just watched a video of AP, there is no way TWD will play like that

This is a great thread.

I think I'm starting to hear that people have different primary values when it comes to pinball. I'm beginning to see two main values for pinheads:

1. theme: sights, sounds, rules and toys
2. feel: playfield layout, part choice, workmanship

A theme player can appreciate sticking with a single vendor, and doesn't mind getting the same layout over and over as long as the theme is well implemented with a good rule set, silkscreened movie/tv show/band graphics, the bash toy looks good, and the callouts match the theme.

A feel player might be less likely to want to own repeat playfield layouts, and is more motivated by unique layouts with unique shots that feel different and feel good.

Regardless of which you value more -- everyone cares about both theme and feel...

Some of us are looking for that theme we've never seen before, while some of us are waiting to feel that shot we've never felt before...

-mof

You can't say Avengers is zero flow. Almost every shot flows to something.

-Hawkeye feeds to right flipper (or left on LE)
-Black Widow flows to left flipper
-Captain America flows through and exits IM
-IM flows thru and exits Cap

The most flow-less Stern goes to POTC. Pretty much every shot stops somehow. Only Jack the Monkey ramp flows to a flipper.

Nope. The shot to the (undiverted) orthanc lane does not end in a saucer, it ends in the Jets or the right looplane. The Barad-Dur (or wheatever the correct name is) shot is the one with the saucer, but that one comes from the left loop, not the inner (Orthanc) "loop". Confusing...

What i really miss on Stern pins are the subways (the coffin in MET is just a place to store balls, it's not really a subway). Of course they all play different and similarities will quite likely show up on pinball playfields to some extent, but subways have always been a nice way to bring some diversion to gameplay.

On the other hand, how much direct shot's does MET have? 10? 11? It seems noone noticed but THAT is something VERY unique, even if it's "just" a fan layout.

I don't own an IM or AP and i'm not the least bit interested in them, so to me TWD is very unique and i want to have one! I also don't have any Borg pin and i love Lymans coding, so it seems to be a winner all the way for me.

I was trying to forget about Avengers. That game is hard to play because your ball is always trapped somewhere.

I think the problem with avengers and xmen is that they're both too tight. The games turn into a brick fest.

The whole left orbit area of xmen is a mess. That pop bumper layout from IJ4 just isn't satisfying because of the way the ball dribbles to the scoop. It is way too hard to get the ball to the upper right flipper in general.

Avengers has one too many shots. They should have removed a standup to widen the black widow and iron man shots just a teeny bit.

Nice thoughts, very well observed!

Though i am "theme-driven" to a certain extent i always try to have as much diversity in shots as possible.

Owning a TZ i will pass on RBION because they are to close shot-wise in my opinion. I like the theme, callouts & music of RBION much more than TZ, but adore the build quality and overall valuable look & feel of TZ.
Owning a MB i passed on MM & AFM because they are just far to similar shot wise and i enjoy MB most of these three. Instead i went LotR because even though the layout is very close to MB the gameplay is so heavlily different and Stern feels so different from Bally/Williams that they have enough differentiation going on.

Whenever i visit a friend who is completely into WPC95 i start getting bored by MB, AFM & MM standing next to each other, it feels pretty much like playing the same pin with different skins.

Mixing up different generations, designers and layouts to get as much diversity as possible theme AND shot-wise is the way to go for me.

I love the side by side one showing locations and shots of Tron compared to FH. If I judge by that, they are almost the same game. But in reality they are completely different. They don't feel or play anything alike. You can't get away from "similar" shot locations in pinball anymore. With all the machines that have been made over the decades there will always be shots that are generally in the same area. So all of these games need to be judged on a case by case basis.

Can you say more about why TZ hit the street and not TAF or WW? Which one was the last one you added?
I always find it interesting when the "evolution" of a design is the one that leaves...

I've always wondered if someone could own all three of those titles.

I had to second guess bringing in HS after owning Whirlwind, and it's been ok. I like to show people the history of pins in the 80's and I like to be able to point out the evolutionary steps between the two (which has a 3 year gap)
Whirlwind is an evolution and a blatant borrow from HS, with "more to do," so if pressed for it, I would keep Whirlwind, and lose HS some day, because in my opinion the evolution of HS to Whirlwind was successful.

-mof

Yep, you are correct sir! I think most people (including you) knew what shot I was talking about, but I think technically you are right, it's the Barad-Dur shot.

This is a great point. We can't just be CAD drawing natzis and say, "Hey these two are identical, therefore they must feel identical."

To do that would eliminate the fact sometimes (sometimes) different parts are chosen, there's different workmanship, and the geometry and feel of the ball is still silghtly different -- different enough to "feel" different.

There's always going to be the same way the ball can "come off the flipper" at finite points (base, middle, tip), etc... That will never change. Flipping will always feel the same, but flipping is just the beginning of the shot.

Then there are going to be 1000's of possible trajectories and feels for the ball once it leaves the flippers and how the ball returns to the flippers again.

Will it be slow or fast?
Will it have 0 collisions or many?
Will there be flow or stop and go?
Will the ball return in a smooth line or arch or ramp or will it dink-donk it's way back?
Are the ramps plastic or metal?
Are the flipper return guides plastic, metal, wire?

The answers to many more questions like these lead to how the ball "FEELS" during it's shot and return to the flippers...

-mof

What does "brick shot" mean to you? (please describe the ball travel properties)
-mof

That's a brilliant idea.

How would you implement it?

I can imagine a few downsides right off the bat to having actual physical targets on the PF that approach the flippers, since they would leave a "hole" behind them -- the "track" that the ball would get stuck in (I *HATE* the moving target in Rolling Stones 2011 more than anything I've ever seen before in pinball). Also, I'm not sure I want "things" on my playfield when playing pinball. I'm not a fan of bash targets or trolls. They are multi-ball flow-killers for me.

Let me see...

What if you had insert lights that flashed from 1-4 on the PF in front of various targets or target banks, and your job was to keep them reset to "1" be re-hitting them frequently? They would advance slowly enough so that you could enjoy other aspects of the PF. If you failed to keep the insert lamp "back" in position "1" of 4, then you'd be "bit".

Once you are bit, you are in zombie mode, and you have to accomplish X-Y-Z in order to keep your bonus, or it's all lost...

Then the zombie mode resets.

Each target could represent an insert, or each bank. Barracora has big banks of drops that reset individually if hit out of order -- a very cool feature.

-mof

There is an insert that says "Bit" so maybe instead of the ball going dead when the zombies get to you, you get "Bit", then you switch sides and have to fight against the good guys?

You can only make so many layouts before they all start to look like a previous game.

= not good enough to hit the intended shot

What's an example?

Is that what I call so many of the shots to the center-top of WoZ that do nothing?

What's the difference between a brick and a shot that is accurate but not strong enough, and comes back to you? (like hitting a ramp on Taxi)

-mof

A wise man once said... "ALL pinball machines are fan layouts".

That wise man wasn't so wise as a fan layout is where the arrangement of shot entry points are all at largely the same area of the playfield, a certain distance away from the flippers. He also must have only been talking about two flipper machines, too. Unless he means "multiple fans".

Disagree. As in, if we define "fan" that way, we have made the term obsolete, so it's not a useful definition.

Everyone has their own definition of a fan layout. I'm promoting this particular one that I find very useful:

A fan layout is one where: "Most of the shots in the layout are low-to-no risk"

What makes a shot low-to-no risk?

1. Hazards (Posts, Targets and Toys) are far away, increasing your reaction time on the ball
2. No Pops or other active toys/cellars have the ability to fire the ball directly SDTM or to an outlane
3. The shot takes the ball out of play via: ramp, lane to upper pops, toy, or scoop and returns it directly or almost directly to the flippers in a predictable manner (that is easy to trap.)

"FANNIEST" OF THE FANS LIST
Shots are far away and generally low risk in nature:

T2, STTNG, DM, NF, TOM, AFM, SS, MM, MB, CC, (and most modern Sterns.)

It was discussed at length in this thread, but by no means is the discussion ever "over"
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/first-fan-layout/

-mof