(Topic ID: 124901)

TWD Code Update - Lyman not working on it....


By paulohotline

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 215 posts
  • 79 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by paulohotline
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 215 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 5.
#151 4 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Man, I love the callouts on Avatar...... =\

Agreed! Some of the best call outs in ALL of pinball!

#152 4 years ago

This whole conversation is completely out of place. The idea of paying a salaried employee to do projects on "his own time" is creating a conflict of interest that jeopardizes his current position. Do you guys even think about what you are saying as you join the herd?

"Yes, Pinside, thank you for helping me lose my job."

#153 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

I seriously think we should start a "Thank you, Lyman!" fundraiser. If we asked Pinsiders to donate whatever they felt was appropriate, I'm certain we would raise a heck of a lot of money. It would be a great way to show Lyman how much the community appreciates the fact that he always goes the extra mile to complete and polish the software on his games.

While I completely agree with you; I 100% appreciate Dwight working on his own time to get ST where it is today. Lyman isn't the only one busting his ass at stern. But yes, we love what he has done for stern and our community - lets just not forget the others slaving away either

#154 4 years ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

While I completely agree with you; I 100% appreciate Dwight working on his own time to get ST where it is today. Lyman isn't the only one busting his ass at stern. But yes, we love what he has done for stern and our community - lets just not forget the others slaving away either

Dwight was on the clock.

#155 4 years ago
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:

Dwight was on the clock.

At midnight on a weekend?

#156 4 years ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

At midnight on a weekend?

Thank you Dwight us pinball addicts salute you!!

#157 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

I'll talk to coasterguy and see if this is something he wants to take on. He's our resident fundraising guru.

If he doesn't, I can do it. It isn't that different from the game "raffles" I did before. Let me know...

#158 4 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

This whole conversation is completely out of place. The idea of paying a salaried employee to do projects on "his own time" is creating a conflict of interest that jeopardizes his current position. Do you guys even think about what you are saying as you join the herd?
"Yes, Pinside, thank you for helping me lose my job."

LOL - I can imagine that conversation....

Gary: Hey Lyman, I heard you made the code great on TWD on your own time.

Lyman: That's right.

Gary: And that pinball people gave you some cash, because they love what you do so much.

Lyman: That's right.

Gary: Do you realize a lot of people want a TWD now? And they think Stern makes great games?

Lyman: Hopefully.

Gary: You're Fired!

#159 4 years ago

Well, Keith worked on Lotr and TSPP in his free time to make them as indepth as he did.

#160 4 years ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

At midnight on a weekend?

Yeah, I was getting updates from Dwight late on Sunday night, not my definition of "on the clock".

#161 4 years ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

While I completely agree with you; I 100% appreciate Dwight working on his own time to get ST where it is today. Lyman isn't the only one busting his ass at stern. But yes, we love what he has done for stern and our community - lets just not forget the others slaving away either

I'm still not sure who/how many people were involved in the code for Mustang, but whoever was involved did a really good job on that one...and even got it to a state of near completion in a pretty short period of time. Kudos to all involved on that one.

#162 4 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

This whole conversation is completely out of place. The idea of paying a salaried employee to do projects on "his own time" is creating a conflict of interest that jeopardizes his current position. Do you guys even think about what you are saying as you join the herd?

"Yes, Pinside, thank you for helping me lose my job."

Lyman could either accept our gift, or politely decline it. Either way, the notion that it could somehow cause him to lose his job is utterly preposterous.

#163 4 years ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

At midnight on a weekend?

He was hired by Stern to come back and help with code. You made it sound like he was doing it for free.

#164 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Yeah, I was getting updates from Dwight late on Sunday night, not my definition of "on the clock".

He didn't come back to Stern for free. He was hired.

Not sure why everyone is having difficulty with my statement.

#165 4 years ago
Quoted from Captain_Kirk:

He didn't come back to Stern for free. He was hired.
Not sure why everyone is having difficulty with my statement.

Because the phrase "on his own time" means he was working ... on his own time?

Lyman works for Stern too. So your response to him working on his own time to get things done is "well he's paid for it"?

Some people are 9 to 5ers, some put in outside effort. That outside effort is being lauded and appreciated.

-1
#166 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Because the phrase "on his own time" means he was working ... on his own time?
Lyman works for Stern too. So your response to him working on his own time to get things done is "well he's paid for it"?
Some people are 9 to 5ers, some put in outside effort. That outside effort is being lauded and appreciated.

We don't know what his hours are. Eskaybee's statement made it sound (in my reading) like he was doing it for a favor or something.

That's all.

#167 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Some people are 9 to 5ers, some put in outside effort. That outside effort is being lauded and appreciated.

Exactly. We all know games such as AC/DC or Metallica wouldn't have turned out nearly as good if Lyman didn't "take his work home with him".

#168 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

Exactly. We all know games such as AC/DC or Metallica wouldn't have turned out nearly as good if Lyman didn't "take his work home with him".

Add SM to that list too. No way that one would of been so loved if Lyman did not put in the extra effort.

#169 4 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Add SM to that list too.

Yep, that was the one that started it all.

#170 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Yep, that was the one that started it all.

Actually, TSPP and LOTR were the ones that started it all for great rules on new Stern games - also done by the programmer (Keith) on his own time.

14
#171 4 years ago

Just for the record, there weren't very many rules that got added to TSPP and LOTR after initial release. TSPP had everything including SDMEWM since 1.0. Now, there was a severe lack of polish on a fair amount of items, especially SDMEWM, but it was all in there.

Same with LOTR, almost. People wondered why I put ALS as my initials at the start of the game, and that was because Valinor wasn't in yet. That affected all the early shipped games to Europe. Valinor WAS in the game for initial US production (4.0), but again the game received quite a lot of polish after it was all said and done.

#172 4 years ago

May I ask, and I hope its not offensive to do so, as an average guesstimate, how many man hours go into the coding of a game? I am curious.

Art

#173 4 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

May I ask, and I hope its not offensive to do so, as an average guesstimate, how many man hours go into the coding of a game? I am curious.
Art

i think it depends a lot on the scope of the project. Something like woz was about 3 man years but that required a lot of platform development to build the initial system. My guess is the standard stern game that builds upon their existing framework is about 1.5-2 man years of time which would include the audio work, dots, rules, testing, etc

#174 4 years ago

I always wondered how it was possible for keefer to do those 2 games the same year with almost complete code on release. It's like AC/DC and Metallica coming out the same year with finished code on release. Imagine that :O (not taking anything away from Lyman here. Could be lots of reasons why things go slower today and the blame is all Stern's)

Either Keefer had more help back then, or he worked like crazy to get them done so fast.(or maybe whitestar was faster to work on than SAM?) Really impressive, no matter the reason.

Btw: We have so much to thank both Keefer and Lyman for, it is ridiculous. To me, they are the ones who have kept pinball alive since the year 2000 and onward. Lots of other great programmers out there, but those two really brought it to the next level. Both of them world class players.. coincidence?

#175 4 years ago
Quoted from karl:

It's like AC/DC and Metallica coming out the same year with finished code on release.

Ummm yah but, Met was not a finished code on release. Not sure about acdc

#176 4 years ago
Quoted from karl:

those two really brought it to the next level. Both of them world class players.. coincidence?

Nope.

#177 4 years ago
Quoted from Brtlkat:

Ummm yah but, Met was not a finished code on release. Not sure about acdc

Yes, I think that's precisely what he's saying. IMAGINE both those games shipped with complete code. That would have been an impossible workload for Lyman. Somehow Keith pulled it off with LOTR and TSPP. At least that was my read on the statement.

#178 4 years ago

Thanks Mark,

Thats a tremendous amount of work to do, especially for a single person or small team.
We were having this as a debate among a bunch of family, friends, and pinheads.
Many of us having written or are currently employed writing code, and the guesstimates
were all over the place. No need to repeat, but thanks for the answer.

#179 4 years ago
Quoted from karl:

Lots of other great programmers out there, but those two really brought it to the next level. Both of them world class players.. coincidence?

The story someone at Stern told me once was Keefer programmed such deep games because he wanted something that was challenging enough for his personal skill level. Dunno if that was really true or not, but I believe it!

Quoted from pinball_keefer:

People wondered why I put ALS as my initials at the start of the game, and that was because Valinor wasn't in yet.

Maybe I'm dumb or just haven't played enough LOTR, but I'm missing the significance of ALS? What does it stand for in relation to Valinor?

#180 4 years ago

He can tell you, he was in this thread just a couple of days ago. I heard he worked hard on LOTR and TSPP because both subjects were meaningful to him. Hence why he put in a lot of personal time on them.

#181 4 years ago

Again..... and again and again and again.....

Don't buy until you are happy with the code. After the years of this happening, I have zero sympathy for anyone not following this rule.

You want to jump on the bandwagon and drink the Kool-Aid, you roll the dice with your money.

-1
#182 4 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

Again..... and again and again and again.....
Don't buy until you are happy with the code. After the years of this happening, I have zero sympathy for anyone not following this rule.
You want to jump on the bandwagon and drink the Kool-Aid, you roll the dice with your money.

Again - and again and again - please stop saying the same stupid ass comment.

FYI - many people can't really get enough time on a game before buying to really be able to evaluate the code truly. Many times the code issues that cause games to not be keepers are pretty deep into the rules, or require a full understanding of the game to recognize the impact. Also, not every buyer has been in the hobby for years to know the history of code issues - many people buy a product assuming it contains what the box says it contains.

I have zero respect for people that just troll because they like to be a pain in the ass and put others down, and subsequently could give a shit what they have to say.

-3
#183 4 years ago
Quoted from T7:

Again - and again and again - please stop saying the same stupid ass comment.
FYI - many people can't really get enough time on a game before buying to really be able to evaluate the code truly. Many times the code issues that cause games to not be keepers are pretty deep into the rules, or require a full understanding of the game to recognize the impact. Also, not every buyer has been in the hobby for years to know the history of code issues - many people buy a product assuming it contains what the box says it contains.
I have zero respect for people that just troll because they like to be a pain in the ass and put others down, and subsequently could give a shit what they have to say.

Well said. Can't agree more. Not everyone is in the hobby long enough to know about those code issues. At that point you would never think that a few thousand dollar toy is in fact incomplete when you buy it. And before you know better it is already too late.

18
#184 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The story someone at Stern told me once was Keefer programmed such deep games because he wanted something that was challenging enough for his personal skill level.

That's partially it. The more accurate version would be "I make games I want to play, because I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of what is fun and what isn't, so hopefully people generally agree with me."

Quoted from Aurich:

but I'm missing the significance of ALS? What does it stand for in relation to Valinor?

It was more being forced to call a certain release "1.00" before it was really "1.00". ALS stands for Alan Smithee. Seemed appropriate.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I heard he worked hard on LOTR and TSPP because both subjects were meaningful to him. Hence why he put in a lot of personal time on them.

Well, the first part is true, but really all games I work on are meaningful to me, and I take great pride in my work. That's why I spend a lot of time on them. I've been kind of lucky with most of the Stern games I was lead on that I knew a lot about them going in. TSPP and LOTR as already mentioned, I watched a ton of WPT before we did that game, and I had watched WOF through most of my childhood (pre-all-cash for sure). In fact, I saw this particular episode first-run which is probably the most amazing thing I've ever seen on the show:

#185 4 years ago

Wow!!! - now I have to buy a WOF!!!

That lady had the single revolution spin down! It was almost like cheating, but she was so very bad at figuring out the word "thrill". Excellent video.

#186 4 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

It was more being forced to call a certain release "1.00" before it was really "1.00". ALS stands for Alan Smithee. Seemed appropriate.

Hehe. Learn something new every day. Thanks for that tidbit!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Smithee

#187 4 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

That's partially it. The more accurate version would be "I make games I want to play, because I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of what is fun and what isn't, so hopefully people generally agree with me."

I like that even better.

I also heard you and Lyman had some pretty epic long ball LOTR games at the office, is it true that you'd work while the other person played his ball, and then 45 minutes later swap places?

Actually, if that's not true don't tell me, because I love the story so much I'm gonna just continue to believe it.

Quoted from pinball_keefer:

It was more being forced to call a certain release "1.00" before it was really "1.00". ALS stands for Alan Smithee. Seemed appropriate.

Ha, love it. Would have never caught that reference on my own though.

#188 4 years ago

May I have an S?

That was precious, Keefer. Made my day

#189 4 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

In fact, I saw this particular episode first-run which is probably the most amazing thing I've ever seen on the show:

That was awesome! I still can't figure it out even with all the letters showing!

#190 4 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

Just for the record, there weren't very many rules that got added to TSPP and LOTR after initial release. TSPP had everything including SDMEWM since 1.0. Now, there was a severe lack of polish on a fair amount of items, especially SDMEWM, but it was all in there.
Same with LOTR, almost. People wondered why I put ALS as my initials at the start of the game, and that was because Valinor wasn't in yet. That affected all the early shipped games to Europe. Valinor WAS in the game for initial US production (4.0), but again the game received quite a lot of polish after it was all said and done.

This is why I'll always consider buying anything produced by JJP. Keefer is the best.

For the same reasons, I buy Stern pins with Lyman.

They get done and polished because they care.

Everything else these days is BS.

#191 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Everything else these days is BS.

AMH code seems to be pretty complete and polished, too.

#192 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

AMH code seems to be pretty complete and polished, too.

Yep.

And so is Mustang...and no Lyman on that game.

#193 4 years ago

Mustang is proof that Stern is capable of clean, fun code right at the beginning of production. There is no excuse for what is going with some of their other recent releases.

Quoted from RobT:

Yep.
And so is Mustang...and no Lyman on that game.

#194 4 years ago
Quoted from T7:

Again - and again and again - please stop saying the same stupid ass comment.
FYI - many people can't really get enough time on a game before buying to really be able to evaluate the code truly. Many times the code issues that cause games to not be keepers are pretty deep into the rules, or require a full understanding of the game to recognize the impact. Also, not every buyer has been in the hobby for years to know the history of code issues - many people buy a product assuming it contains what the box says it contains.
I have zero respect for people that just troll because they like to be a pain in the ass and put others down, and subsequently could give a shit what they have to say.

You have zero respect for me?? Hilarious. Just hilarious.

If you are going to buy, knowing fully what has historically happened, enjoy the end result, and keep buying, and keep crying for code.

You are the fools (yes fools! - not an insult, a recognition of you by basic definition) that do this every bloody game, yet next title released and oooooo sign me up for an LE.

So don't call me a troll, you fools are the trolls, trolling for when inevitability sets in on each new game. I mean, I can understand the Scarecrow getting roped into this game after game, but you guys have brains.... right? Use them if so, and quit wasting our time with threads about how shocking you find the fact that the latest Stern game isn't getting finished.

-1
#195 4 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

You have zero respect for me?? Hilarious. Just hilarious.
If you are going to buy, knowing fully what has historically happened, enjoy the end result, and keep buying, and keep crying for code.
You are the fools (yes fools! - not an insult, a recognition of you by basic definition) that do this every bloody game, yet next title released and oooooo sign me up for an LE.
So don't call me a troll, you fools are the trolls, trolling for when inevitability sets in on each new game. I mean, I can understand the Scarecrow getting roped into this game after game, but you guys have brains.... right? Use them if so, and quit wasting our time with threads about how shocking you find the fact that the latest Stern game isn't getting finished.

You are a troll - posting in a thread just to be an ass. And you're doing it again - just proving how much of a troll you are.

#196 4 years ago
Quoted from T7:

You are a troll - posting in a thread just to be an ass. And you're doing it again - just proving how much of a troll you are.

Yup, for sure. Check out my past thousands of troll posts for proof.

Don't take my advice then. Get Uber excited for the next, and the next, and the next.... and continue with the endless unicorn expectations you have.

It's so nice enjoying pinball other than fretting over it. You're right, why should I try to encourage intelligence in buying, doesn't matter to me one bit. I don't get myself into any of these situations. Just maybe it's to try and spread the word just a tad more, so though on the fence just see more of a push in the proper direction, which is the ***only way this will ever change***.

#197 4 years ago

Meh... people complain about Stern releasing machines with unfinished code....

18 years later, I'm still waiting for WMS to finish the code for NGG

#198 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Meh... people complain about Stern releasing machines with unfinished code....
18 years later, I'm still waiting for WMS to finish the code for NGG

I hear it's close.

#199 4 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

Yup, for sure. Check out my past thousands of troll posts for proof.

You're right - I'm sure most of your posts are not trollish. I was only responding to the negative, superiority complex attitude displayed in your first (and second) posts here. I am not one of the people you have been targeting as I do not buy every new game, and have not had many "code" problems. I'm just sick of reading post after post telling people to quit whining, with a major I'm better than you attitude (which you clearly possess), inconsiderately telling others what fools they are. There are numerous posts from many different pinsiders repeating the same exact statement - it's not even original. Just like you're sick of all the whining, so am I. You seem intelligent enough to be able to "encourage intelligence in buying" as you said in a more civil, thoughtful manner. My posts here were an attempt to neutralize the negative/inferior feelings your posts were designed to inflict on others.

#200 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Yep.
And so is Mustang...and no Lyman on that game.

Mustang is an awesome game. Love my Boss Premium.
Jack Benson was a fantastic hire for Stern !

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