Ninja Eclipse
Turner Pinball, 2023Quoted from dpadam450:He got 1 million worth of stolen goods for $50k.
man o man ... how much did you have in on Zidware and Deeproot.
he bought it legally don't know why he or if stern or spooky or AP bought this stuff why would they have to refund anyone anything?
lesson for those to sink money into a start up company! I don't ask for money back on a non winning lottery ticket !
We all know how this company is going to end, let's not jump ahead to the "after he's wildly successful he should give back" stage just yet.
Quoted from dpadam450:"This guy is pretending to be a business."
Personal opinions on Turner aside, most businesses were and still are built in garages. It's a decent start. It's a video of a working game prototype. Everything in the world was built from an idea. I sucked when I bought my first skateboard and guitar. I think jumping to conclusions that you can't improve beyond a prototype is what you have to open your mind up to. Look at the wright brothers first plane designs. Effort and time leads to improvement.
I'm not convinced Turner is the biggest thing that will succeed, but just like my game, you do have to acknowledge what is in front of your eyes. Looks like hes got a decent artist. Working operating system that triggers solenoids. As American Pinball bullet pointed boldly on Galactic that they have "Wireform Ramps", he has them too. I'd bet he does make a full working game at some point. Will it sell, be trusted, price makes sense, who knows but I think he is on the path to make a game which is the first step to consider the business further. My critique is that competing with Stern Pro models/pricing is such a hard business sales pitch. And selling higher price than that regardless of quality and features is even worse. Agree, he's not a business just yet and it's a lot of work and risk.
Looks like Turner showed up with a FLIPPABLE game with lights, and action about the playfield... Are you there this go about?
The playfield glass and lockdown bar lift up in one piece. This is the extent I can tell of “redesigning the pinball cabinet.” I played a couple games on it and it was better than the demo video but still rough around the edges. The code is barely anything at this point. Met the designer, Brad(?), and he was totally open to my feedback and said he’s got lots of changes to the layout coming. The scoop tossing is intended to be much faster too just not coded correctly yet.
BB2A6C9A-2808-4B9E-88D9-6560BC848405 (resized).jpegQuoted from play_pinball:The playfield glass and lockdown bar lift up in one piece. This is the extent I can tell of “redesigning the pinball cabinet.”
It's been done. My advice is don't borrow any ideas from Andrew Heighway.
Just had a nice conversation with Chris Turner and got a chance to play Ninja Eclipse. Cudos to Turner Pinball for getting a game flipping and at TFP. A very early version, missing some planned elements, lights, etc. - but it shot and scored, the shot geometrics seemed good, and at least one cool feature, a scoop that shot out to another scoop that shot up to the third flipper, like as Chris put it " a ninja climbing a rope".
I am glad I got a chance to meet Chris in person and chat with him. I am wishing him good luck and I am looking forward to future progress on this and other Turner games.
20230324_195212.jpg20230324_195235.jpgIMG_20230324_195557.jpgQuoted from thirdedition:Bally did that back in the what the late 60s/ early 70s?
Whoopee.
There's nothing new in pinball.
Quoted from play_pinball:The playfield glass and lockdown bar lift up in one piece. This is the extent I can tell of “redesigning the pinball cabinet.”
[quoted image]
Bally did that on their 'On-beam' pinball from the 70s.
"Looks like Turner showed up with a FLIPPABLE game with lights, and action about the playfield... Are you there this go about? "
Still working but also enjoying life. To be fair I believe I said TX 2024 was my goal. Should at least see something big in April. Enjoying life and having financial freedom is my life focus. I plan to sell maybe 100 or more units on my game. If I quit my job like Turner for 6 months: the math is the price tag has to go up $1,200 @ 100 units just to make up lost salary+benefits, every 6 months I'm unemployed. Hiring 2+ people like Turner did, warehouse cost, drop $50k on deeproot assets = my game goes to $6,000 easily. Him and I are on different paths+goals that can't be compared. His game can't hit $2,600 as of today. It's a side business too, with no need for consistent orders to thrive. If I cannot get to and affordable game, I'm going to walk away. He's all-in with a big risk, full-time. I'm not interested in risking life savings and being stressed to the max trying to compete with Stern.I can't imagine how much stress some pinball companies/employees have right now.
Affordability requires a different approach and arguably is a different market on it's own. Based on what I'm seeing, Turner may be getting up quicker at the cost of burning massive cash (I estimate $100k or more right now). To hit profitability it appears he is on the path to require a price tag equivalent to what is already out there and directly compete in a tiny market that is highly competitive right now. He's going to be in full-time cash burning development for 6 more months(?) more? Only way I see an in on the pinball business is pricing. At the same price are you going to pick Ninja's over any other game? At $4-5k he might be more appealing especially with Stern setting sail on the home edition models. Smartest thing Turner can do is hit $5,000 or under if possible. Never know though, the world evolves. There is always someone that comes along with the next cool thing. Myspace->Facebook->Instagram->TikTok-> (probably something next in line).
Maybe someone can interview him though and he can speak about his ideas and plans, estimated release timeframe, cost etc.
So he's a good guy who want's to make pinball better?
But then there's pinside.
Y'all say you've seen it before, but so have I.
Of Pinside tearing down Haggis, tearing down precision Flippers, tearing down any start up company that want's to make pinball better.
And you all have the same 'reason's' for being dicks to people. We've seen it before with such and such, so no one will ever succeed, and they are probably all thieves trying to rip people off anyway.
Y'all want to have a good hard look at yourselves.
Quoted from dpadam450:"Looks like Turner showed up with a FLIPPABLE game with lights, and action about the playfield... Are you there this go about? "
Still working but also enjoying life. To be fair I believe I said TX 2024 was my goal. Should at least see something big in April. Enjoying life and having financial freedom is my life focus. I plan to sell maybe 100 or more units on my game. If I quit my job like Turner for 6 months: the math is the price tag has to go up $1,200 @ 100 units just to make up lost salary+benefits, every 6 months I'm unemployed. Hiring 2+ people like Turner did, warehouse cost, drop $50k on deeproot assets = my game goes to $6,000 easily. Him and I are on different paths+goals that can't be compared. His game can't hit $2,600 as of today. It's a side business too, with no need for consistent orders to thrive. If I cannot get to and affordable game, I'm going to walk away. He's all-in with a big risk, full-time. I'm not interested in risking life savings and being stressed to the max trying to compete with Stern.I can't imagine how much stress some pinball companies/employees have right now.
Affordability requires a different approach and arguably is a different market on it's own. Based on what I'm seeing, Turner may be getting up quicker at the cost of burning massive cash (I estimate $100k or more right now). To hit profitability it appears he is on the path to require a price tag equivalent to what is already out there and directly compete in a tiny market that is highly competitive right now. He's going to be in full-time cash burning development for 6 more months(?) more? Only way I see an in on the pinball business is pricing. At the same price are you going to pick Ninja's over any other game? At $4-5k he might be more appealing especially with Stern setting sail on the home edition models. Smartest thing Turner can do is hit $5,000 or under if possible. Never know though, the world evolves. There is always someone that comes along with the next cool thing. Myspace->Facebook->Instagram->TikTok-> (probably something next in line).
Maybe someone can interview him though and he can speak about his ideas and plans, estimated release timeframe, cost etc.
That is the biggest paragraph of made up conjecture ever. Have you hacked his bank account? Or his work computer?
Quoted from punkin:That is the biggest paragraph of made up conjecture ever. Have you hacked his bank account? Or his work computer?
To be fair, whatever roi calcs dpadam450 comes up with is based on years now of his own development and detailed cost analysis so I’d give him a bit of credibility w/out knowing Turners bank account details.
I played the game and spoke to Chris. I think pinside is a little too high and mighty from most people. The game is early but was fun to play. It was flippable and had some modes, and could get a feel for the layout.
He also spoke about how he doesn’t want to do anything that deeproot has started. He has people on his team that worked for deeproot as employees and lost their jobs as well. He didn’t want all the work go to waste.
Give the dude a chance. Who cares if he got 1 million for 50k. Sounds like he’s running a business and doing it well if he can accomplish that.
Most of the lot on here are too damn negative.
"That is the biggest paragraph of made up conjecture ever. Have you hacked his bank account? Or his work computer?"
"(I estimate $100k or more right now)" is what I said. You honestly don't see $50k of work involvement? 2 guys in the background working? Plus contract art? Plus TXPF booth fee was a couple hundred bucks. Parts for the prototype (wood, ramps, etc). Hotel cost. If he quit his software job for this then, yea lost wages if you want to count it. He was a software engineer probably making good money. Either way $50k sounds like a pretty decent estimate. I'm curious to see what he does or what his high level pitch is. Is he trying to do something different or just make a pinball company and games in direct competition to whats out there. Is he still trying to innovate anything?
Quoted from TreyBo69:Also saying "well Haggis/Spooky did it" is the equivalent of someone holding up a snowball during a climate change debate. It's not that boutique pinball can't succeed, but the odds are heavily stacked against them as evidenced by the dozens of companies that failed vs the small handful that did push through. (Worth keeping in mind JJP went bankrupt and was bailed out by a billionaire who liked pinball)
Maybe twice.
A lot of people on here are negative because the same things keep happening. Someone shows up with big ideas about for a pinball machine/ company and a lot of get excited. Then the company starts asking for money and people happily give. The company folds and people are out cash. Rinse and repeat.
This particular company is being build on the still smoldering ashes of a company that just got done doing that. So yeah, there are going to be plenty of criticisms.
Anyone giving money on a game not built or ready to ship gamble on the company..
If you choose this path , no point to complain if you lose...
Time will tell !
"doesn’t want to do anything that deeproot has started". They why god is he going forward with this? The only way any of this makes sense (and still a longshot) is if he had 3-5 games 95% complete from DR with all the programming, art, code, etc.... to work with and roll out the finished product by doing efficient manufacturing and eliminating the stupid "improvements" DR was trying to market. Then maybe we could overlook the conflict of interest with how he obtained all of this at the expense of others for pennies on the dollar. This is worse than Punny factory. Actually I think that game has more potential and that is saying something. How is this different than "Fruit Ninja", remember that one?
"Anyone giving money on a game"
He hasn't asked for money + doesn't look like he's into drugs, so I think he has comprehension of what Deeproot did wrong. Another question someone should go back and ask. Is he planning on using the Pinbar at some point?
Not bad. Game seems interesting enough for being so early. At least they let it out into the public and are taking feedback on it. Sorry the other guy stole all your moneys.
Quoted from Octomodz:I played the game and spoke to Chris. I think pinside is a little too high and mighty from most people. The game is early but was fun to play. It was flippable and had some modes, and could get a feel for the layout.
He also spoke about how he doesn’t want to do anything that deeproot has started. He has people on his team that worked for deeproot as employees and lost their jobs as well. He didn’t want all the work go to waste.
Give the dude a chance. Who cares if he got 1 million for 50k. Sounds like he’s running a business and doing it well if he can accomplish that.
Most of the lot on here are too damn negative.
You can see from the poster at the booth that he's already pitching it at the show as a product though, is the issue. He's not letting it breathe and gain traction on its own time and potential as its own quirky thing. The moment the spectre of money enters the equation, everyone here is going to lump it on the same podium as the other half dozen new machines competing for dollars at the show. I'm intrigued to see where the project goes, but honestly, what did we *think* was going to happen?
Quoted from NeilMcRae:based on what I saw at the show these guys have a SUPER long way to go.
Yes they defiantly do have a long ways to go. But look how far they've come snice announcing.
BTW. Don't know if it lasted, but I put the high score on the game last night.
Ninja 68
Quoted from dpadam450:I think he has comprehension of what Deeproot did wrong
Clearly he doesn't.
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:He's already pitching it at the show as a product though, is the issue.
Yup.
Same old shit.
Quoted from NeilMcRae:based on what I saw at the show these guys have a SUPER long way to go.
Showing at this stage is a sign of being in love with your name on a logo and the idea of pinball. I'm sure he's a nice guy and enthusiastic, and apparently doesn't do drugs (pinball might need more pinball who do drugs tbh). None of that matters. He's making all the classic mistakes we've seen over and over.
We're negative because we're tired of this movie in reruns.
23:30 timestamp. Got it in on the background now. First few minutes he's talking about a team of 6 people and working for 6 months.
The notes from their table talk:
No clear company goals, just make fun games
Chris is full-time + software guy full-time
His personal money paying for it
Every person worked at Deeproot
End of year goal for release
Price point will be after looking competitively at other companies vs their product when done
Wants to sell 100 units as a goal to define success
I think the financials I said was more than spot on and more cash will be spent in the next 9 months estimated. 100 units = He will be 200k-300K of spent cash and missed cash via a real job h would have generating income by end of year. Unless it's a vacation for him and he just wanted a break from working a standard job, then say 200k/100 units just to cover investment money. That's $2,000 net which needs to be $2,500 to 3k in gross profit per game to break even. Price tag: $3,000 + material/labor + profit for the venture = up to you to guess. Which is fine. Just the facts. Well see where it goes. Competing with Foo Fighters does not sound fun but his price is a minimum $5k right now. If the pre-orders are non refundable, that's a hard sales pitch.
Quoted from dpadam450:The notes from their table talk:
Again ... why such a hard on for this company .... ?
Quoted from transprtr4u:Again ... why such a hard on for this company .... ?
There’s a 700 page thread about the origin and demise of deeproot, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that this venture will attract a lot of that scrutiny and attention.
The stakes and community incredulity keep getting upped each time this happens, which is why there are so many hard opinions in this thread already. It would be different if this company existed in a vacuum, but it doesn’t. That’s why the term “uphill climb” keeps getting tossed around.
Also, fair or not, the slowly moving legal system has resulted in a lot of folks who still have their pitchforks out over the deeproot fiasco, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not really fertile earth for a wholesome pinball startup, even if by all accounts you’re a nice, well-meaning dude.
Quoted from JStoltz:Also, fair or not, the slowly moving legal system has resulted in a lot of folks who still have their pitchforks out over the deeproot fiasco, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not really fertile earth for a wholesome pinball startup, even if by all accounts you’re a nice, well-meaning dude
Even if the legal system rules for the people ... try getting blood from a stone !
If he is successful more power to him , can't put what Zidware or Deeproot did on him ...
Biggest problem and easiest to solve, don't give money to pinball start ups, always a sucker that has have the new and shiny pin ... and perhaps something special that will be worth more down the road ...
At the very least the gentleman in Europe made MG a fully playing game.
Quoted from JStoltz:There’s a 700 page thread about the origin and demise of deeproot, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that this venture will attract a lot of that scrutiny and attention.
The stakes and community incredulity keep getting upped each time this happens, which is why there are so many hard opinions in this thread already. It would be different if this company existed in a vacuum, but it doesn’t. That’s why the term “uphill climb” keeps getting tossed around.
Also, fair or not, the slowly moving legal system has resulted in a lot of folks who still have their pitchforks out over the deeproot fiasco, waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not really fertile earth for a wholesome pinball startup, even if by all accounts you’re a nice, well-meaning dude.
The fact is the same shit get's trotted out for everybody who want's to do something in pinball. Nothing can ever work, because it's been tried before by someone and failed. We may as well just all go on unemployment.
Read the first twenty pages of the mermaid spec thread.
Quoted from dpadam450:"Again ... why such a hard on for this company .... ? " huh? I listed notes and speculated on cost. Posted notes to help out. Everything else has been meaningless opinions for pages.
You do realize this site has a nifty quote function: just highlight the text you're responding to and click the little "quote" widget that pops up. Makes a nice encapsulated quote that links back to the original message just like you see here. No need to manually "quote" and makes it much easier to figure out what you're responding to.
Two things I notice from these pictures the one piece glass and frame hides the stadium lights well and any bets that the unfinished piece of wood on the apron is where the “we swear it’s not a Pinbar” goes?
Quoted from punkin:The fact is the same shit get's trotted out for everybody who want's to do something in pinball. Nothing can ever work, because it's been tried before by someone and failed. We may as well just all go on unemployment.
Read the first twenty pages of the mermaid spec thread.
This is never going to work.
It’s been tried and it failed.
The shit must be trotted out, and Ninja Eclipse needs to never be finished because it will be terrible.
Quoted from punkin:The fact is the same shit get's trotted out for everybody who want's to do something in pinball. Nothing can ever work, because it's been tried before by someone and failed. We may as well just all go on unemployment.
Read the first twenty pages of the mermaid spec thread.
I agree that a vocal portion of the community can be pretty unnecessarily negative, but I disagree that what you’re seeing here is the same as what happened to Haggis. Turner started with a radioactive elephant in the room by not doing a better job of isolating the project from deeproot, and this is the price they have to pay for it.
And just to be clear, I’m not saying the response is correct— I’m just explaining why I think it is/was inevitable.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This is never going to work.
It’s been tried and it failed.
The shit must be trotted out, and Ninja Eclipse needs to never be finished because it will be terrible.
You don't need to worry about it. It's someone else who is making an endeavor.
Go back to bringing nothing good into the world and tearing others down. Making the world a slightly worse place with your contribution.
Quoted from JStoltz:I agree that a vocal portion of the community can be pretty unnecessarily negative, but I disagree that what you’re seeing here is the same as what happened to Haggis. Turner started with a radioactive elephant in the room by not doing a better job of isolating the project from deeproot, and this is the price they have to pay for it.
And just to be clear, I’m not saying the response is correct— I’m just explaining why I think it is/was inevitable.
Doesn't explain why exactly the same things were said now, does it?
Quoted from punkin:Doesn't explain why exactly the same things were said now, does it?
I guess not, but there’s definitely more than one category of objector here.
Quoted from JStoltz:I guess not, but there’s definitely more than one category of objector here.
I understand, i think it's unreasonable, but i understand.
Quoted from play_pinball:Curious to know what feedback Steve Ritchie gave
Someone get this man a comb! 
Felt a bit bad for Turner Pinball at the show. There were bigger lines for 25+ year old games like T2 or Back to the Future than there were at that booth. Most of the time I passed by the guys were just sitting there and the game was unplayed.
Ninja eclipse sounds like a mobile phone games there is 0 appeal to that theme .
If he bought all of Deeproot assets why didn't he go with MG or RAZA, they looked more compete and it's not like he can hide his Deeproot origins anyways.
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