(Topic ID: 15510)

TSPP tech help please! Now completely fixed

By Dewey68

11 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 37 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by gweempose
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 11 years ago

Note: This is a very old thread.

One of my pop bumpers has been acting erratic the last two nights. It will fire in a pattern with nothing hitting it, and then I noticed it stuck on. I immediately shut it off. This was an hour ago. I just turned it back on, but it was fine. When it was firing rhythmically, the game was doing crazy scoring of bank targets, etc. Is this a sign of a bad transistor in the switch matrix since the other targets were going nuts?

Post edited by Dewey68 : More CACA has hit the fan!

#2 11 years ago

First thing I would do is check all the wiring connectors to make sure they are fully pushed together (under the playfield and at the boards). Then I would make sure there is a big enough gap for the pop bumper switch.

Then turn the machine on and see if the problem is gone.

#3 11 years ago

I haven't checked the wiring, but it's definitely not the switch. I played another game, and the pop bumper started acting up, but at the same time the game was registering the ball going down the monorail and multiple other switches that weren't being activated. Appreciate the suggestion though.

#4 11 years ago

It sounds like a wire short to me. That is something I worry about happening each time I raise and lower the play fields in my machines.

#5 11 years ago

Sounds like a switch issue. Check the switch for the pop. It should be very close, but not touching contacts (they need to be very close to react snappy). Which "bank" targets are you talking about? Is it the drops? Check there for the switches that may have an issue (short against another metal tab/part).

Check the switch matrix. It appears that the drop targets are each in a row of a pop bumper switch. If there is a short in a switch in one of the rows, either playfield side, or IC, it could either short the entire row, or part of it, depending.

Figure out which pop it is, which target, and look to the PF and DMD for any other switch giving points/lighting up at the same time.

Then, review the switch matrix in the manual, and report back.

#6 11 years ago

I second atomic boy's advice. Start at switch test and report back.

#7 11 years ago

Forgot that this is a newer machine with the switch matrix display. Checked it today, and the left pop bumper wasn't working, comic book guy switch, one of the lock switches on the upper playfield, the left outlane switch, and a few others. Raised the playfield to take a look and those switches started firing. Loose connection somewhere. Haven't tracked it down, but moving the wire looms toward the back of the cabinet has alleviated it for now until I have some time to look over the manual and track down where the connection is.

Thanks for the help fellas.

Hold the phone, bigger problems. I put it back together and my son and his friends started to play and I ended up with the bumper coil locked on. Now it's blowing fuse f21. Grrrrrrr.

#8 11 years ago

Well, smoked the pop bumper coil. I've got to have a short somewhere, right?

#9 11 years ago

Given what you said, it looked as though most, if not all, of row one of the matrix was shorted on. Do you have the manual? The switch matrix is in there. There are a few things that can cause a row to be out, or partially out:

1) a short somewhere with one of the under PF switches, as in touching against something else
2) a broken diode on one of the switches, which is supposed to stop a the remainder of the row/column from activiating, when only one switch is to
3) a column/row controlling IC can short - this will result in at least one full column/row shorted, with no exceptions.

The coil locking on though is usually another issue, if it is the only coil issue, and that is a blown driver transistor.

Short answer is yes, you have a short somewhere, but it sounds as though it should be two, but hard to believe they are not connected.

What is your experience level?

#10 11 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

What is your experience level?

Dangerous newbie! I have some electronics experience, but not a ton.

#11 11 years ago

Ok, so I had a short on row one which caused all of the switches in the row to register. I could have either a wire short or a bad diode on any of those switches. Would this short have caused the pop bumper coil to lock on, or did the short on row one fry the transistor that drives the left pop bumper and cause it to lock on? Just talking myself through the logic here.

What is most likely causing the fuse to blow now, logically speaking?

#12 11 years ago

double post

#13 11 years ago

sorry to hear your having a problem, I went through a similar problem a bit ago... you might read through my string "Sega/Stern Apollo13 coil stuck, blown F21 fuse, mosfet blown... " I ended up sending my board out... I should have it back Monday or Tuesday... besides what is in the string I'll post what it finally ended up being on mine when it comes in...

#14 11 years ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

Ok, so I had a short on row one which caused all of the switches in the row to register. I could have either a wire short or a bad diode on any of those switches. Would this short have caused the pop bumper coil to lock on, or did the short on row one fry the transistor that drives the left pop bumper and cause it to lock on? Just talking myself through the logic here.

What is most likely causing the fuse to blow now, logically speaking

It shouldn't have been related, but can be. Since the fuse is blown, and you know switch row 1 is locked on, check to see if there are any lights either locked on or not on. This should be evident in attract mode.

#15 11 years ago
Quoted from APOLLO_13:

you might read through my string "Sega/Stern Apollo13 coil stuck, blown F21 fuse, mosfet blown...

I actually read most of that book...errr...thread.

Quoted from Atomicboy:

Dewey68 said:Ok, so I had a short on row one which caused all of the switches in the row to register. I could have either a wire short or a bad diode on any of those switches. Would this short have caused the pop bumper coil to lock on, or did the short on row one fry the transistor that drives the left pop bumper and cause it to lock on? Just talking myself through the logic here.
What is most likely causing the fuse to blow now, logically speaking
It shouldn't have been related, but can be. Since the fuse is blown, and you know switch row 1 is locked on, check to see if there are any lights either locked on or not on. This should be evident in attract mode.

So you are saying do this with the fuse out?

If I understand the switch matrix correctly, the processor polls the switches to see if they have a connection. To keep the cost down and make everything more simple it uses the matrix instead of having a transistor for each switch, is this correct? I'm having trouble understanding what can cause the processor to think that the other switches in the row are closed.

#16 11 years ago

Looking over the manual, fuse F21 is for the 50 volt feed for the coils. So does this mean I have a short on one of the coils?

#17 11 years ago

Sorry, not a lot of time tonight. A matrix has been used for controlled/insert lights and switches since early SS machines came out.

Do you have the clay guides? I'll give you some good reading to understand this all. These are the guides for DE/Sega, which were the precurser to Stern machines:

http://www.thepirates.net.au/arcade/Pinball/PinRepair/Apr-11/Pinrepair/Pinrepair.com%20Repair%20Manuals%20Apr%202011/Data%20East%20and%20Sega/

#18 11 years ago

Yeah, I've been rereading through them. In answer to your earlier question, there are no lights stuck on or off in attract mode. All the switches are testing fine again. Thanks for the help Atomicboy, sorry if I seem impatient. I can see how a bad transistor can lock a coil on, but tying the switches triggering erroneously in row 1 to a bad transistor driving the coil is what I'm not getting.

#19 11 years ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

switches triggering erroneously in row 1 to a bad transistor driving the coil is what I'm not getting.

No prob. That is why I asked about the lights. I'm dealing with a Whitestar machine now that has a bad bus/data line. I would normally say you have a shorted transistor for a coil locking on, but given there were switch errors, I wanted to make sure it wasn't something more. A bad data line will cause issues with one or two of everything, lights, switches and solenoids.

In anycase, I wonder now if the coil in question in touching a switch close by somewhere, hence grounding both. Have you taken a very good look to make sure nothing is "too close", regardless if touching at the time?

#20 11 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

Have you taken a very good look to make sure nothing is "too close", regardless if touching at the time?

I'll try to take a look at that if I get time tonight. The fried coil has been pulled, so it's another coil that is shorted that is blowing the fuse. I'm wondering if I have a bad diode on one of them at this point.

#21 11 years ago

Did you search RGP? From the quick reading I just did, it sounds like you may have a bad transistor...

#22 11 years ago

If it's only the one coil, and it's still taking out the fuse, I agree, result has been a blown power transistor, 20n10l, or whatever they are. Still, that can't be the original cause though, given what you mantioned.

#23 11 years ago

I'm sorry to say, but you should have never let the game continue to be played with a known issue as it tends to escalate from that point and now you don't know what's causing the problem and whether the coil and F21 are part of the original problem or something new.

What could have very well happened is that the switch for the pop shorted on, which tells the MPU to fire the coil for the pop. I'm not too familiar with whitestar so I don't know if the MPU logic uses a one-shot or just looks at the switch state. If the latter, then the coil would have stayed on as long as the switch was made, which in the case of a shorted switch is continuous. Once the coil stayed on, it heated up, current draw increased and probably fried your transistor for that coil. Hopefully it didn't take out any board traces in the process. If you're lucky, F21 popped before any damage was done.

At this point, concentrate on getting your switch matrix fixed. By your description of moving wire bundles causing the issue, I'd be looking closely at all wiring connections to switches under the PF. Look for broken diode legs or diodes touching things they shouldn't.

#24 11 years ago

Well, now that I put the proper fuse into F21 (I didn't have a slo-blo in it) the game will power on and I can start a game. Helps when you have the proper fuse in.

Now it gets odd again. If I do a switch test, all switches test out fine. Once I start a game, the switches in row one do not register, or will randomly register. I noticed when the left flipper is triggered that sometimes switches in row 1 would register. Tomorrow night I'll start with testing the transistor that drives the left bumper to see if it fried before f21 blew, and then I'll test the diodes on the switches in row 1 unless someone has a better idea. I did take a look at the switches in row 1 and didn't see any obvious wires shorted.

#25 11 years ago

To test the diodes you need to remove one leg from the circuit (from one lug). If they work properly in the swtich test, and by that I mean you can activate any one of row one, and only that one switch activates, the diodes should all be good.

Intermittent is almost always conenctors ( I feel like a broken record in every post). There may be a broken wire/diode somewhere that is still resting on the contact point, and the vibration may be knocking it in and out of circuit. Check ALL switches in row one, each lug and diode for anything loose or being held on by only a thread of a connection so to speak.

Again, ensure nothing is touching the coil in question, and that the lugs are not touching the steel bracket holding it. I had a coil on my TZ that was slightly touching the holding bracket, and was energizing the powerfield ramp divertor, and the wire ramp it touched, and every metal piece it touch.

It was fun learning of this when touching it and the side rail one day - 70v...

#26 11 years ago

Checked all of row one switches and couldn't find any loose connections or shorted connections. Reseated and checked IDC connectors for switch rows and columns as well. Once again, all switches register correctly in switch tests. I did some more testing during a game, and recorded more odd behavior. For row one, the left outlane, upper playfield exit, comicbook guy, and upper playfield "light" target did not respond to a closure. The left bumper, upper itchy and scratchy drop, and the upper bully target did register. Now the odd part; the left ramp registers as comic book guy, giving you hurry-ups. WTF? How can they all work fine in the switch tests and behave this way during play?

#27 11 years ago

I don't know. I don't know even what to suggest at this point. I have never heard of anything like this before. I suggest calling the Stern help tech. They are pretty good, and may be able to answer this for you, or point you in another direction.

The only thing I can think of is the game logic is getting confused.

I would be tempted swap driver boards, but pull the solenoid fuses, and see if the problem is still there to isolate the possibilities, but you do not have another whitestar system. Know anyone?

#28 11 years ago

Spoke with Chas at Stern, he was surprised by this behavior. He suggested a factory reset (I mistakenly did "install factory" in the menu last night).

Hopefully that takes care of the issue.

#29 11 years ago

You may need to update your roms/code. I was thinking that before, but wasn't sure of the likelihood of that being the issue.

The transistor is still likely done, so you will need to test it, and if there is an internal short, replace that before putting in a new coil.

I’m interested to see if that was the issue. I can’t see a factory reset fixing this, and if not, try updating the roms/code. This may be damage/compromised in a way that is making it act like this. This is really a shot in the dark at this point. I’ve never heard of anything like this either.

#30 11 years ago
Quoted from Atomicboy:

This may be damage/compromised in a way that is making it act like this. This is really a shot in the dark at this point. I’ve never heard of anything like this either.

If this doesn't work I'll probably call in a technician. My time/sanity are not worth this aggravation.

#31 11 years ago

Another shot in the dark, but try re-seating the small ribbon cable between the CPU and driver board.

#32 11 years ago

Reset the game to factory defaults, and.......IT ALL WORKS! Tested the transistor for the burnt coil and that tested ok too, so it looks like F21 did it's job and blew before it damaged the rest of the circuit. Unreal. Now to get a new coil ordered. Thanks to all for helping me out.

#33 11 years ago

hmm...wow... I learned something new today, which makes no sense quite honestly.

F21 didn't really do the job, as it's supposed to blow before taking out anything, but if the worst thing you do is having to buy a new coil, no biggie.

Glad it got solved.

1 week later
#34 11 years ago

Update: turns out the transistor was bad. I tested the wrong one! D'oh! Luckily I work about 2 miles from a Fry's and was able to cross-reference the transistor I needed to a NTE one. I replaced it about 30 minutes ago. Also replaced the garage VUK switch, the garage door coil with a stronger one, swapped the old one to where the burnt coil was, and now it's all back and 100%. First transistor replacement and it was a success, very happy to be able to play the game again.

#35 11 years ago

great job and thanks for sharing the struggle through to fix it!

#36 11 years ago

Not that this helps you now, but I've gone through quite a few TSPPs and for whatever reason the transistors that drive the pop bumpers seem to go bad quite often. Just a heads up for anyone else who has this problem...

3 years later
#37 8 years ago

Man, am I glad I found this thread. I installed some illuminated flipper buttons in my TSPP this evening. After doing so, the Comic Book Guy standup suddenly stopped registering hits. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what was causing the problem, because it worked fine if I put the game in switch test mode. The problem was only present during actual game play. I spent about 30 minutes checking every connector to see if I had accidentally knocked something loose. Everything looked fine, so I grabbed my computer to see if I could find someone with a similar problem. The first thread I came across was this one, where Dewey mentioned that Chas over at Stern recommended a factory reset. I figured what the hell, so I did a factory reset and ... BAM!!! The game is now back to normal. You gotta love the internet!

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