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(Topic ID: 152936)

Troubleshooting em score motor overrun


By pinballman3

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 40 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by pinballman3
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

I was wondering if anyone knows if unplugging the backbox and the playfield and the coin door on em pinballs should make the score motor stop spinning unless the problem is on the score motor. I am just wondering if this can be used to determine if the problem is on score motor. If it keeps the never ending spin it is on the score motor. If it stops spinning start plugging stuff back in until it starts spinning again. Does anyone know if it works this way. Just a thought. Thanks for any help.

#2 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
My answer is a clear "Maybe".

It depends on the switches causing the Score-Motor to run. If one or more such switch(es) is mounted on the playfield "HERE You get 500 points" - or the switch is on a relay and the relay is mounted in the Backbox or (underneath side of) playfield: THEN the wiring of this switch does go through connecting wires / Jones plugs. In this case: Unplugging the playfield etc. does end the "SYMPTOM of Score-Motor turning".

Look at "Space Mission": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2253 -> Schema-page-1, area-C3 / C4: ALL the switches "causing" the Score-Motor to run. Do You see the "Bonus-Relay switch" ? Look in the ipdb-manual -> page-15 (ori-13) -> the Bonus-Relay is mounted on the playfield.
The same with the "Super Advance Relay (Switch)" ...
Manual-pages-16, 17, 18 show the Jones Plugs in detail.
Manual-pages-25 etc. show the Relais in detail.

For to work on a pin: I best like Williams pins WITH schema and manual ...
Greetings Rolf

#3 4 years ago

Thanks Rolf, i gues my question is. Does unplugging the jones plugs take what is hooked to it out of play. If all of the jones plugs are undone for playfield does it remove anything from playfield as suspect as cause of score motor spinning. I did not know if this would make it like all switches that where suppose to be closed act like they are closed or if it would just leave them as open and not keep the motor from spinning. I guess the way to test this would be take a fully working machine and undo all of the jones plugs and see if score motor spins or not. Wish i had a fully working one here.

#4 4 years ago

Well you can for sure unplug the playfield to at least eliminate that. The game should go through its start up sequence and the motor stop spinning without the playfield plugged in, so start there. If it still has a problem with the playfield disconnected, you know it's not the playfield and can focus on the bottom-board.

Also, are the score reels resetting to zero? You can also manually set them to zero and then try it with the playfield also unplugged. I'm pretty sure that would eliminate anything in the head. So then you're looking at whatever is in the start-up path down on the bottom board. Could be simply a switch that's not closing when it gets to the home position. Do you have schematic?

#5 4 years ago

Hi pbm3 +
for to "let the Score-Motor run" (I have everything on the playfield): A relay (A) must pull and close a switch -> a connection is made. Or (seldom, theoretically (possible)) a pulling relay (B) quits pulling, let go -> a switch that was opened by the active relay closes -> a connection is made. A Switch (C) should be open but the blades are bent -> making contact -> a faulty connection exists. A drop of solder (D) unfortunately has fallen and makes a faulty connection (lets say on the solder-lugs of the MALE-Jones-plug). A short piece of bare wire (E) unfortunately has fallen and makes a faulty connection (lets say on the female part of the Jones-plug).

Unplugging the playfield would stop the "Score-Motor running": (A) - as the coil of this relay is also connected with the Jones plug. (C) - we unplug the (Jones-plug) connection. (D) - the MALE-Part of the Jones-plug WE PULL.
Unplugging the playfield would NOT stop the "Score-Motor running": (E) - the fault is on the female-side - we only have pulled the male-side of the Jones-plug ¬- the female side is (still) sitting in the cabinet.
The theoretically (B): Because the switch is mounted on the relay (B) - and the relay (B) is mounted on the playfield and the Coil of the relay is connected through the Jones-plug: Unplugging the Jones-plug will CUT connection -> NO turning of the Score-Motor.

goldenboy232 wrote "good / important" sentences. I add to his post-4:
Read this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-efficiently-ask-for-pinball-repair-help-em - then start a new topic - give us the (needed) information - MANY pinsiders like to help - with a good description of Your problem(s) - You sure will get help.

Please start a NEW topic - I would not post in here more posts - when I saw this topic first -> I read "Score-Motor OVERRUN" - well "overrunning***" is a specific phenomena You (most likely) do NOT have - So start a new topic. Greetings Rolf

P.S. - To me "overrunning***" is: Everything is fine - but the brakes do not stop (early enough) at the end of a "normal" turn -> through to "momentum" the Unit turns a bit further -> the "Self-Hold-Switch" of the Score-Motor does (faulty) close (again) -> another turn -> and again and again ...
P.P.S.: Do not bother / think about my (A), (B), (C), (D), (E) - they are constructed, theoretical - we are eager to learn about a REAL problem ...

#6 4 years ago

It depends on what circuits are sending power to the score motor. If those circuits are part of the playfield or backbox, then yes, it would stop the score motor from running when the Jones plugs get disconnected. But, this is a very difficult way to troubleshoot a continuously running score motor. It's much easier and quicker to pinpoint the issue with a schematic...

#7 4 years ago

Thanks guys, Ok i do have the schematics. It is a spirit of 76. I have the backbox all unplugged i have the playfield all unhooked i also have the coin door plug unhooked. I have cleaned all the switches on the score motor. It still just spins and spins. Any ideas where i should look at this point.

#8 4 years ago

Have you looked at the clutch on the motor? is it working properly?

#9 4 years ago

You'll need to look on your schematic to find the stuck switch that is causing the score motor to keep running. Find the score motor symbol on the schematic and work your way back through the switches so you can check/clean/adjust them. Of course, if one of the switches in the score motor circuit is located on the playfield, backbox and/or coin door that you unplugged, you wouldn't have to check those switches... Power off the machine while you're checking the switches. After the adjustments, power on the machine and see what happens...

#10 4 years ago

I dont recommend trouble shooting with all the Jones plugs disconnected...too wacky to try to weed thru

#11 4 years ago

This isn't that hard, folks. There are only 8-10 switches that cause a motor to run, and they are right there on the schematic. Find them, look at them, see what is closed when it should be open.

Post #10 above is correct.

Post #8, what's a score motor clutch? Is it on the transmission?

Post #7...see post #10. And see my first comment above. Many/most/some of the switches that cause the motor to run are on the motor board. So disconnecting everything else isn't going to fix anything; you still have to go find those switches on the motor board that cause the motor to run. And there might be a switch on either the playfield or in the head that would cause a switch on the motor board that is in the motor circuit to open, causing the motor to stop. Like the man says, it's "too wacky to weed through".

#12 4 years ago

Ok you are saying 8 to 10. Also you say what is closed that should be open. I am confused. From everything i have read it says switches that are open that should be closed can also cause the motor to continually run. Because the reset cycle is not complete until everything is home. For example the 16 switches on the score reels. What 8 to 10 switches are you talking about. The ones that are open on one side of the motor on schematic? I am not use to these em pinballs. Then i am told one thing and read another. I am just trying to learn. I put a the whole machine back together. When i turn it on all that lights up is the gi lights on backbox. No playfield lights. Also when i turn the power on to the game the only relays that energize are game over and 1st ball. Ok i went and looked at the relays. Oh boy. It looks like someone got in there and just meesed the switches up bad. Is there anything that tells or shows you where each switch finger should be in the relay armature? I have some fingers that are out completely some that are bent bad. I dont know what they where doing. Thanks

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

Post #8, what's a score motor clutch? Is it on the transmission?

The armature moves up when it gets power, and jams the drive gear into the transmission.
and moves out via a spring when power is removed. so the transmission stops moving before the motor spins down.
is that not a clutch? or does this pin not have one?

#14 4 years ago

Here is an example of what i am going to be fighting.

20160223_161316_(resized).jpg

#15 4 years ago

That's a switch stack from a relay and it will need to be put back together before you start doing troubleshooting on the machine. Just look at the other relays that are installed on the main board and you should see how it goes back together...

#16 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
great - You turn-on the pin (110 Volt main power switch) and the Q-Game-Over-Relay starts pulling and keeps-on pulling - and the U-First-Ball-Relay does the same. They do what they should do - this is functioning. (I assume: Your Spirit of 76 and the Royal Flush (I have a schema and I know the pin, not have one) have the same basic functionality.

You turn-on the pin - You ONLY have lights in the Backbox -> Look in Your schema -> transformer -> 6Volt-Side -> in the Schema "Royal Flush" there are two loooong lines -> to the illumination. One line divides into two lines -> TWO fuses -> one fuse is for "Name and Scene Lights" and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Player Score Illumination Lights.
Follow the other looong line -> see a "Switch on H-Hold-Relay" - it is drawn OPEN. That means: To have the lights illuminated - the lights after this Switch: The H-Hold-Relay must pull and therefore close this switch. The H-Hold-Relay will start pulling when You start a new game (((because in the start-procedure the AX-Relay will be activated -> current can flow to the H-Hold-Relay-COIL -> H-Hold-Relay starts pulling.

pbm3, want to try ? -> You turn-on the game (110 Volt Switch) -> with a wooden stick (NOT METAL - we want to have the stick insulated (a ruler from school is handy) - with a wooden stick You push onto the anchor plate / armature of "H-Hold-Relay" -> do playfield-lites light-up ? does the H-Hold-Relay keeps-on-pulling ? (Both should happen).

Oh boy - the picture in your post-14 ...
Yes, BEFORE you try to start games: you should put these relays together. Great, in the picture I see a stripe of paper with the names of the relays - one relay on the left - one relay on the right - one relay on the left etc.
I assume (maybe i assume wrong): The picture shows the damaged "H-Tilt-Hold-Relay".
When it would be the "Royal Flush H-Tilt-Hold-Relay" -> I look in the schema -> the List of relays -> I would read ... H 9738 G 1A, 1B, 1C H-Tilt-Hold-Relay.
"A" means: Normally-Open switch - a switch that is open when the relay is NOT pulling.
"B" means: Normally-closed switch - a switch that is closed when the relay is NOT pulling.
"C" means: a 3-bladed Switch, a Make and Brake Switch - the middle blade has contact to ONE OuterbladeFF (relay is NOT pulling) -> when the relay pulls -> th middle blade move and looses contact to FF -> the middle blade moves and has contact with the OTHER Outerblade-GG (as the relay now is pulling).
So identify these damaged relays -> look-up in the list (of relays) - 2A, 4B, 3C would mean: 2 switches of type "A", 4 switches of type "B", 3 switches of type "C". If You can SEE on the relay - you can SAY: THIS switch MUST be of type "A" (((or B or C))): fine - If You doubt / do not clearly see -> we must LOCATE every "Switch inquestion" in the schema -> we see the colors of the wires to that switch and We see in the schema: THIS is a Normally-closed-Switch (as an example) -> you look at the Relay-switches (in question) -> THESE same colors -> THIS MUST be a Normally-Closed Switch ...
You have a lot of work to do -> when you have the relays "put back together" -> we can try to start a game.
Greetings Rolf

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballman3:

Ok you are saying 8 to 10. Also you say what is closed that should be open. I am confused. From everything i have read it says switches that are open that should be closed can also cause the motor to continually run. Because the reset cycle is not complete until everything is home. For example the 16 switches on the score reels. What 8 to 10 switches are you talking about. The ones that are open on one side of the motor on schematic? I am not use to these em pinballs. Then i am told one thing and read another. I am just trying to learn. I put a the whole machine back together. When i turn it on all that lights up is the gi lights on backbox. No playfield lights. Also when i turn the power on to the game the only relays that energize are game over and 1st ball. Ok i went and looked at the relays. Oh boy. It looks like someone got in there and just meesed the switches up bad. Is there anything that tells or shows you where each switch finger should be in the relay armature? I have some fingers that are out completely some that are bent bad. I dont know what they where doing. Thanks

OK. Last question first. To determine how to put an armature and actuator back together, you have to first straighten all the blades. Then you have to "read' the stack to see what goes where. On the pic you posted for example, from left to right, there are 7 blades making up three switches. On the left is a normally open switch, then a normally closed in the middle, and the three on the right combine to create a make/break switch where the left and middle blades are normally open and the right and the middle are normally closed when the switch stack is set into the slots on the actuator.

Reassembling a mess like that is not fun.

Back to the first question, there are no open switches that can cause a motor to run. Think about it...power has to flow to the motor through switches to complete the circuit and deliver power to the motor. If one is open, there is no path for current to flow to the motor.

You might have read about how the score reels can cause the motor to run. That is true, but indirectly so. For your purposes, you can eliminate the score reels by bypassing them with two jumpers, one from the tens reel on player one to the ten thousand reel on player two, and another jumper similarly on player 3 and player 4. What you are doing is bypassing the zero position switches on each of the two sets of score reels (player 1 and 2 is a set and 3 and 4 is a set) to allow the start sequence to complete.

On your schematic at index line 18 1/2, the motor is shown by the M in the circle. To the right are the 9 switches that will cause the motor to run. If any of the switch pairs with a Yellow/Red wire on any of those 8 relays are closed or the one motor switch is closed, the motor will run.

And there is no clutch on the score motor; all the gears are always meshed and engaged.

#18 4 years ago

Reading this in conjunction with the schematics might help you better understand the process:
http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0537.html (it is from the SO76 manual)

#19 4 years ago

Thanks all. I finally got back to this. Had a family emergency. All is well as of now. Ok to the pinball. I got the game now where the motor does not run on and on. When i turn the pinball machine power on the game over relay and the first ball relay pull in. If i push the the start or replay button nothing happens. I can manually activating the start relay and some of the stuff on the playfield works. Like pop bumpers flippers. What should i be looking at to get to the next step.

#20 4 years ago

Make sure there are credits on the credit unit. Clean and adjust all the contacts on the credit unit. Check the voltage at the start button switch with a test light or multi-meter. If there is no voltage at the start button switch, you'll need to find the start button switch on the schematic and trace back away from the coil symbols and go back through the switches to the transformer...

#21 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
jeffc (post-18) mentioned "daina" - GOOD -> These Gottlieb descriptions are true - BUT not complete / not very detailled. The standard example of this fact is the very first sentence.

Inserting a coin MIGHT actuate the S-Start-Relay. But - it also can be: Some credits are added. MAYBE the S-Relay gets actuated AND some credits are added.
You have a Spirit of 76 - I do not have a schema , I look in the schema Royal Flush -> Pushing the Start- / Replay-Button does actuate the V-Replay-Button-Relay and the V-Relay does actuate the S-Relay ...
Look in Your schema -> list of relays -> do You have a "Replay-Button-Relay" ? Does it has the letter "V" ? -> Look in the schema -> the connections "S-Relay" <-> "V-Relay". See the many switches for to actuate the "V-Relay" ?
See the 1st Coin chute adj. Switch ? - not so many switches for to actuate the S-Relay (using the path "throwing in a coin into the 1st coin chute").

Write what You would like - A) fixing the problem "throwing-in a coin into 1st Coin chute" shall (directly) actuate the S-Start-Relay (the Adj-Switch of course must be in Position "1 Play")
B) (Having replays on the counter) Pushing the Replay-Button shall actuate "V-Relay" -> shall actuate "S-Relay". C) You (for a while) live with "must manually actuate "S-Relay".

If You choose "C)": I would like to follow the "daina" description sentence by sentence (actually word by word - with some "added words by pinsiders"). You write "some stuff on the playfield works" - well, nice - I want to go through the daina description -> I want to make sure ... -> the actuated S-Start-Relay LOCKS-IN (question: does it ?) -> S-Relay starts the Score-Motor running (does it ?) AX-RELAY actuates (does it ?) etc.

The second "standard example" of incomplete Gottlieb-descriptions: The "R-HOLD-RELAY" !!!
Does Your pin has such a R-Relay ? Look in the schema (near S-Relay / near Transformer): Royal Flush schema shows: As the S-Relay pulls -> R-Relay is actuated and establishes "lock-in" (question: when You manually actuate the S-Relay - does the R-Relay actuate an keeps-on pulling ?)
(((All Relays are important, of course --- in the starting procedure: Q-, U-, S-; R-, AX-Relay are important -> Z1-, Z2-Relay etc.)))

(((When You manually put some points on the Score-Reels and the actuate the S-Relay -> do the Score-Reels reset ?)))
Greetings Rolf

#22 4 years ago

Ok. We got the surgery over with and all went well. I checked voltage at the start replay button. On one side it was like 6 volts on the other side it was like 12 volts. On my machine when i turn the power switch on the game over relay and first ball relay pulls in. Thats all that happens. If you press the start button nothing happens at all. If i actuate the start relay manually the score motor spins 1/3 of a turn and the reset banks reset. The score reals do nothing even though i manually put scores on them. I guess i will and would like to do c option. I will start looking at it. Here is a pic of schematic for it.

20160302_164948_(resized).jpg

#23 4 years ago

Its hard to follow the diana tip above when the first thing on it does not operate.

1. Inserting a coin or pushing the replay button actuates 'S' relay (Start relay).

#24 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
"following the daina description sentence by sentence - word by word with some added words by pinsiders" means: Unfortunately the manufacturers did not write a complete "start-up procedure" - we must add a couple of things.
Great - You toggle the main power switch -> Game-Over-Relay pulls in (and must keep-on pulling), U-First-Ball-Relay pulls-in (and must keep-on pulling). I hope they do.

You opted for "C-option" - so for a while You actuate manually the S-Start-Relay -> question: Does the S-Start-Relay lock-in for a while ? It should ...

Great, the Score-Motor starts to turn - it is a bit confusing - in Williams / Bally Pins we talk "a turn" - we mean: The Nylon-Wheels do turn 180 degree - half of a full revolution. In a Gottlieb pin we talk "a turn" - we mean: The horizontal turntable-like metal plate does turn 120 degree - one third of a full revolution. So Your Score-Motor start and does a (full / complete) turn - Great, the "Self-Hold-Switch on the Score-Motor "SCM-1C" works fine and makes the Score-Motor to complete the turn.

Great, the "Relay Banks" do reset. At the very bottom of Your "snippet of schema, post-22" I see a "Switch on S-Start-Relay CLOSING (nice)" and I see a "Switch-2C on Score-Motor CLOSING (nice) - then I see fuses (they are OK (fine)), the Coils for the "Reset of Banks".

I was asking some more questions:
DOES THE AX-RELAY starts pulling ? and keep-on pulling ? It should.
DOES THE R-HOLD-RELAY starts pulling ? and keep-on pulling ? It should.

Look in your snippet of schema -> on the left, above the middle -> the symbol of the Score-Motor (encircled M) -> go horizontally to the right -> many switches -> the rightmost is marked "(Score- ) Motor-1C - the mentioned above Self-Hold-Switch - it works.
To the left of SCM-1C I see a "Switch on AX-Relay" -> AX-RELAY MUST actuate -> so this switch (on AX-Relay) closing DOES KEEP THE MOTOR TURNING. AX-RELAY is IMPORTANT for resetting - IT MUST PULL.

A bit of "schema-reding" -> see the coil on S-Start-Relay -> a bit to the right -> downwards -> "Self-Hold-Switch named "S" -> to the right and down -> to the right -> right -> right -> up -> Score-Motor-Switch-2B -> right -> Anti-Cheat-Switch.
SO: As soon as the Score-Motor starts turning -> turns -> SCM-2B opens -> S-Start-Relay gets inactive -> Score-Motor turns and the stops. Does this succession happen in Your pin ?

I hope - in daina -> we have completed sentence-1, sentence-2, sentence-3 -> we are at the beginning of sentence-4: What does the AX-Relay do ?
Greetings Rolf

#25 4 years ago

Ok i got it where the start button will make motor turn. All that happens is the motor turns a 1/3 way around. The drop targets reset and the bank resets. The ax relay does not pull in. The only relays that pull in after pushing the button is the start button relay and the start relay

#26 4 years ago

Ok i found out if i manually actuate the start relay and the ax relay at the same time after i press the replay button the score reels reset.

#27 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
in post-19 You wrote: "Toggle the main power switch -> Q-Game-Over-Relay pulls in and keeps on pulling - also the U-First Ball Relay". This is what they must do - is it still true in Your pin ?????
Lets look in Your snippet of schema (post-22) - way op on the left You see "Coil of AX-RESET-Relay (after the whole reset is done: THIS Relay / Coil must pull to end the reset (((remember: AX-Relay is an Interlock-Relay))).
A bit downwards is the "Coil on AX-Relay" it should pull -> to the right -> wire-Black-Orange -> a "Make-and-Brake-Switch on U-First-Ball-Relay***" -> wire-Black-Red -> Switch on S-Start-Relay***" -> "Switch-Score-Motor-1D***" -> a bit to the right -> down -> to Transformer-Power-Side.
Through the closed switches*** the AX-Relay should get activated. In question is: Does Score-Motor-1D REALLY close (when the Motor runs) ?
I hate to work on Score-Motor-Switches - FIRST I check: Is REALLY the Score-Motor-Switch the faulty switch ? Or could it be: ANOTHER switch in the line is faulty ?

Do You have a Jumper-Wire with Gator-Clips at the ends ? Look at my snippet of schema -> the fuse on the bottom has a wire "RED" soldered-on. On the other side there is wire-Red-Green soldered-on - THIS IS THE POINT TO CLIP-ON THE JUMPER-WIRE.
The other end of the Jumper-Wire has to be clipped-on at "Switch on S-Start-Relay" - this Normally-Open-Switch has wire-Black-Red soldered-on (hopefully two or three such wires). On the other side of the switch there is a wire-Brown-Red soldered-on (hopefully only one wire).

Arghh, Black-Red and Brown-Red --- hard to tell apart.
Well, unplug the main power-cord (Safety Reasons). Clip-on one side of the Jumper-Wire at (what You think is) Brown-Red. Clip-on the other end of the Jumper-wire at the 15 AMP Fuse SIDE WIRE-RED-GREEN.
Plug-in the main power cord -> toggle the main power switch ->
AAA: The AX-Relay starts pulling and the Score-Motor does turn.
BBB: (not AAA) - only the Q-Game-Over-Relay and the U-First-Ball-Relay start pulling and keep-on pulling. You either have AAA or BBB.

If You have AAA: toggle-off the main power-switch - UNPLUG THE LINE-CORD -> Change clip-on at S-Start-Relay to "other side of the switch" -> then try again - do You NOW have BBB ?

If You do not have BBB: Pleas stop testing and report.

OK, You have the main power cord plugged-in, toggled-on , ONLY the Q- and the U-Relay pull. Push the Credit-Button -> does the AX-Relay pulls ? Please report.

A general rule when using Jumper-Wires As you "overide" some switches (with the Jumper-Wire): You might let a Relay pull longer (time) then in original mode (no Jumper-Wire). THEREFORE the rule: After 1 to 2 minutes of testing: turn-off, unplug the main power cord - let the relays cool-off. After a couple of minutes you can do the next test.

Unfortunately: The Make-and-Brake switch on U-Relay (or wires in-between) can cause problems.
Would You please have another good look at ALL Switchesn on U-Relay - and at ALL Switches on S-Relay ?
Greetings Rolf

z-spirit-76-pinside-snippet-2_(resized).jpg

#28 4 years ago

Ok i now have it where when i turn main power switch on the game over relay and the first ball relay pulls in and stays pulled in. I found a badly adjusted make or brake switch on the u 1st ball relay. I adjusted it and now the start up sequence resets everything. The problem is the score motor does not stop in the right place after the reset. It stops past where it should. So i can not hit the replay button again and make it 2 player game etc. Also the game will not score anything.

#29 4 years ago

Would it be the home switch on the score motor? The score motor should power itself until it returns to the next home position. Is this correct?

#30 4 years ago

Switches throughout the machine should send power to the score motor until the machine is completely reset.

Check the switches with the "yellow/red" wire on these relays:

D, E, G, O, P, S, W (might be M), AX

And check score motor switch 1C with the yellow/red wire...

#31 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
I have some temperature (fever) -> very short --- 1): Self-Hold-Switch-Score-Motor-1C may stay open ALWAYS - it should close just after the Motor starts a turn.
2): The brake on the Motor - it does not stop -> Motor override JUST a little bit.
See: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#motor - interesting in picture-1: the place (3 1/2) where the brake has broken-off ...

Score-Motor-1C has wires soldered-on: Red-White, Yellow mingled with Red.
Look in the schema (near Score-Motor) -> A switch on S-Start-Relay does have the same colors, a switch on AX-Relay does have the same colors , other relays have ... .
Good night, Greetings Rolf

#32 4 years ago

Thanks guys. I have been sick myself with a stomach bug. I will check the 1C motor switch and claen it as soon as i can. Pretty sure it is going to be the culprit for this problem. Then it will be on to the scoring issue. It wont score even if i start a game and then turn the score motor where it should stop. Flippers work pop bumpers work. i dont think the kick out hole on playfield or the kick out at ball drain work. Nothing will score. It also does not ring the chimes. I will get into that more after i check out the score motor.

#33 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
IF (if) You can locate the "Self-Hold-Switch Score-Motor-1C, wires Red-White and Yellow-mingled-with-Red" -> (if, if) -> after you toggled the main-power-switch (to on) -> hold the tip if a screwdriver (INSULATED HANDLE) AT THE TWO BLADES OF THIS SWITCH - of course: ONLY at these two blades -> the Score-Motor will start turning -> JUST after the Motor has startet: Take away the screwdriver: -> "Faulty": The Score-Motor stops immediately (Self-Hold-Switch-SCM-1C is NOT working properly". OR, GOOD: The Score-Motor turns until it reaches "Home Position".
What do You have ? If there is not room enough (in the pin): Simply do NOT do this test.

We have been discussing some points - lets return to the "daina" description and check "description" <-> "reality in the pin". Maybe a friend does help ? - He pushes (at Your command) the Replay-Button - YOU might be standing at the open Backbox - looking at the Player-Unit --- Or You might be leaning into the cabinet looking at a specific relay - NOW, whats happens ?.

We are through "daina-sentences" 1), 2), 3) -> And (?) 4) etc.? : AX-Relay actuates -> does the Coin-Unit resets ?, do Q- and U-Relay de-energize ? What about Z1- and Z2-Relays ? Let Your friend start a game - and You are starring at the COIN-UNIT. Result ?
Then a new test -> let your friend ... You are ... at Q- and U-Relay. Result ? Etc. (daina-description). Starring at Score-Reels -Results ?

(((After a long time (time to come) : in 5b): ... The Player Unit continues stepping to its Zero-Position ... 6. ... Reset is completed.
This "stepping (Player-Unit)" is easy to be seen - does it happen in Your pin ?)))
Greetings Rolf

#34 4 years ago

Ok. I got the score motor operating properly now. So now Turn game on push the replay button. Everything resets. Score reels, bunus unit, coin unit and player unit. Motor stops where it should. But The ball does not kick out into shooter lane.

#35 4 years ago

Check the outhole switch first, to make sure it's clean and gapped correctly, so that the ball is closing it. There is also a switch on the O relay in this path. Without a schematic, I don't know what else is in this path, but check those two things first.

#36 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
great job - in "daina-tip" You are at the end of "6.". At least: I hope Your pin has done the mentioned stuff (example: "6." ... AX- and BX-Relay reset ...) - we will find out.
I do not know why Gottlieb has done the description of Startup-Procedure "as we read it". The description through 1. 2. ... 6. has NO ball in the Outhole. So: Without the ball in the Outhole check "7." -> Can You start a 2-, 3-, 4-player game ?

Then we come to "8.": The ball is in the Outhole -> the "Outhole-Switch (underneath-side of the playfield - at that place) does close -> "O-Ball-Return-Relay does actuate and establish its own "Self-Hold-circuitry" (will be pulling for a while) -> the Score-Motor is activated -> runs and by turning closes Score-Motor-Switch-4C -> actuates the Ball-Return-COIL -> ball is kicked over to the shooter alley.

So the question is: Is the O-Relay actuated ? Look at your snippet of schema (post-22, -27) - a bit below the "drawing of the Score-Motor" the Coil of O-Relay is shown. To the right -> You see the mentioned (daina) switches -> You see the NOT MENTIONED (daina) Switch "Zero Position Bonus Unit" -> You see the "Ball-Return Switch" - just above You see a switch mentioned "O". This is the "Self-Hold-Switch mounted on O-Relay - closing when O-Relay is actuated".

Do a little test - start a game -> -> reset is done -> pin comes to (faulty) idle -> manually actuate the armature (anchor plate) of O-Relay -> what happens ?
Would be great is the ball IS KICKED over to the shooter alley - means You have only ONE problem there.
If the ball is NOT kicked over (what happens exactly ?) means You have 2,3,4 problems.

In the snippet of schema - just below the "Coil on O-Relay" I see "E-" or "F-" , hard to tell.
When You manually actuate the O-Relay AND O-RELAY DOES NOT PULL-IN: What does the "E-" / "F-" (?) Relay do ? -> IF (if) it pulls: This would tell us: "Zero-Position-Switch on Bonus Unit" is faulty - it is NOT resetted to Zero / faulty / Switch-Blade bent.
Greetings Rolf

#37 4 years ago

The O relay does not actuate. Did test. Turn game on push start replay button. Everything resets as it should but ball does not kick out into shooter lane. Manually Activate O relay with ball switch closed. Ball still does not kick out. All that happens is score motor turns a 1/3 turn and stops.

#38 4 years ago

Hi pbm3
so You have two faults
First: When the O-Ball-Return-Relay is actuated (by the pin or "manually by You") -> Score-Motor makes a turn (120 degree) and through several switches the "Ball-Return-Coil" is fired. But not in Your pin.
Second: The O-Ball-Return-Relay is not actuated by the "Ball lying in the Outhole - depressing the Outhole-Switch".

We might have to use a Jumper-Wire with two gator-Clips at the ends - but we can use a insulated cable with bare ends - Main-Power-Cord unplugged -> we wrap one bare end of the Jumper-Wire around a solder-lug -> have the other bare end not touching anything -> plug-in-turn-on, start a game -> carefully hold the bare end to a certain pint in the pin (whatever we want to test).

I would like to look at "First" - there are less switches involved. I look in my schema "Royal Flush" -> the Ball-Return-SOLENOID is actuated by a "closed switch on O-Ball-Return-Relay", through a "closed switch 4C on the turning Score-Motor" and through a "closed switch on BX-Last-Ball-Relay" (Yes, once the last ball is played -> no more kicking the ball to the shooter alley).
The BX-Relay is an awful relay - as the (awful) AX-Relay it is of type "Interlock-Relay".
In "Royal Flush" during start-up the BX-RESET-Part is actuated at the same time as the AX-RESET-Part is actuated - in YOUR pin ?

Look in Your schema -> Ball-Return-SOLENOID -> follow the wires - Colors-? -> Switches on WHAT Relays ? (leave-out the Score-Motor-Switch for the moment) -> check these switches (wire-color matching with the schema - PAY ATTENTION: IS THE BX-RELAY RESETTED ?

Please report - we might have to use a Jumper-Wire looking closer at "First Fault" - maybe we can proceed to "Second Fault". Greetings Rolf

#39 4 years ago

One note I have which helped me on my melody score motor running and running . Find the score motor card on the inside wall. If present its a time saver when looking for a specific switch on the motor .

4 weeks later
#40 4 years ago

Ok i am back at this. I am going to close this and start a new one where i am at now.

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