(Topic ID: 187333)

Troubleshooting a dead game (safely)

By burned_fork

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

I'm taking on my first "project" pin, a Data East Secret Service, and was hoping to get some advice on the general process to troubleshoot this game (and pins more broadly).

The prior owner noted that he plugged it in and powered it up once briefly and noted that it made a humming sound (seems to be standard for DE games, working or otherwise, to make this noise?), but that the playfield didn't light up and the game didn't start. I was advised to check everything over carefully before turning it on, lest I find myself with smoke and fire.

So I've looked through the DE-specific info on the pinwiki, and checked out the following guide for things to test: techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/desega/index1.htm (not linked since I just created this account and can't add links)

The fuses test fine (and clips are solid), the transistors seem good, no obvious burns on the molex (but I need to admittedly take a closer look), and I'm slowly working through the other recommended things to check before powering it on again.

So my question is, what else should I review before I try turning this on again for the first time? It seems like troubleshooting this is really going to require powering it up to better diagnose, but I want to make sure I've covered my bases before flipping the switch. What sort of things could I test (sans power) that might cause damage if they're in a broken state?

And once powered up, is there a general plan of attack for troubleshooting? Is it kosher to disconnect everything from the power supply and then test voltages coming off the connections, then slowly re-add connections to the CPU, GI, etc? Any particularly good order to do this in? (I read up a bit on bench testing the CPU board with a PC power supply, so I was going to test that separately to see if it's working as expected.)

Most of the guides I've found seem to be geared towards troubleshooting a game you knew was previously working, but I'm starting from scratch on a dead game. I want to make sure I take the proper precautions as I troubleshoot.

Thanks in advance for any shared insight/wisdom. I'm new to pins (other than an EM I grew up with at my parents' home), but I'm an arcade collector looking to expand my skill set into a new domain.

#2 7 years ago

I'd unplug outputs from the power supply board and measure voltages, AC for GI and DC for everything else. See if they are right.

Then proceed if all good.

LTG : )

#3 7 years ago

Make sure all the fuses are the correct rating before you switch it on.

#4 7 years ago
Quoted from stoptap:

Make sure all the fuses are the correct rating before you switch it on.

Yes, I noticed a few were not correct and bought appropriate replacements already. A few seemed to be just slightly higher (0.5A installed in place of a 0.25A, 7A instead of a 5A, etc). The only thing I couldn't confirm was the appropriate rating for two fuses mounted to the right side of the backbox (adjacent to the four GI fuses). I haven't tried to trace what those go to yet, and they're unlabeled.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from burned_fork:

I haven't tried to trace what those go to yet, and they're unlabeled.

Probably for 50V coils and the other playfield controlled lamps.

LTG : )

#6 7 years ago

Manual available on IPDB. Lists the fuse values.

http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2090

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from burned_fork:

A few seemed to be just slightly higher (0.5A installed in place of a 0.25A,

That's not slightly higher, it's double the value!

Never install a higher rated fuse.

You can usually install a smaller fuse (like a 5 instead of a 6A) in a pinch.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from stoptap:

Manual available on IPDB. Lists the fuse values.

Thanks, apparently I didn't look closely enough. The playfield coil and flash lamp wiring diagram shows them wired up to the kickback and kickbig.

Quoted from LTG:

Probably for 50V coils and the other playfield controlled lamps.
LTG : )

You nailed it. Kickback and kickbig, found it in the playfield coil and lamp wiring diagram. Thanks!

#10 6 years ago

So, I have everything disconnected from the power supply except for CN1 and CN2 (CN1 seems to be AC in and labeled IT Secondary, CN2 is ground), and then CN6 (logic power) running to the MPUs CN17. I've disconnected everything else from the MPU except for CN17 (logic power).

Can someone sanity check my assumption that this is a safe way to power up and test the MPU and see if it's booting properly?

Edit: Just to add to this, I'm getting something like 4.3V on the 5V test point on the power supply, but when turning on the game with the MPU plugged into the power supply, I'm getting nothing on the MPU test points.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from burned_fork:

Just to add to this, I'm getting something like 4.3V on the 5V test point on the power supply, but when turning on the game with the MPU plugged into the power supply, I'm getting nothing on the MPU test points.

So that's already too low, even before the voltage leaves the PS.

Post some clear, well lit, pictures of the PS so we can see the connector pins.

Have you replaced any of the caps yet?

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

So that's already too low, even before the voltage leaves the PS.
Post some clear, well lit, pictures of the PS so we can see the connector pins.
Have you replaced any of the caps yet?

Apologies that the picture is not super bright. I can get a better picture this evening, but this is what I took last night. That said, the connectors looked good. No burn or anything that I could discern.

It looks like one of the chips (IC1) was replaced, presumably because C3 was leaking (but they didn't do a great job cleaning it up). I haven't put new caps in since they looked good, but if that seems to be the root cause, I can do that (not great at soldering, but given how cheap replacement power supplies are, not too worried about using it to learn on, since I could just buy a Rottendog to replace it).

Also, does anyone know what the mark is around the top left of the underside of the board? There's no caps nearby, but it looks like something leaked near the relay?..

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#13 6 years ago

C2 usually gets roasted from it's bad location.

It looks original, so get rid of it if you are just shotgunning.

#14 6 years ago

Electrolytic caps have about a 12 year lifespan.

Caps that get heavy use (C4) or super hot locations (C2) tend to wear out much faster.

I write the date on new caps, so that the next tech can see that they are not 30 years old.

Beware of ebay sellers, as they often have NOS large caps from the 1970s!

Vintage gear is nice, but not when it comes to caps......

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Electrolytic caps have about a 12 year lifespan.
Caps that get heavy use (C4) or super hot locations (C2) tend to wear out much faster.
I write the date on new caps, so that the next tech can see that they are not 30 years old.
Beware of ebay sellers, as they often have NOS large caps from the 1970s!
Vintage gear is nice, but not when it comes to caps......

Haha, nice. I need to put a new cap kit on one of my arcade CRTs, so this seems like good practice (27" CRT is waaay more expensive than this PSU if I screw it up somehow). Do you have a place you'd recommend going for caps?

#16 6 years ago

Great Plains

www.greatplainselectronics.com/

If you're shotgunning I'd say c2 is your culprit for the low 5v.

#17 6 years ago

Could have been a spill, must just be some residue where flux wasn't completely cleaned off the board. Or someone tried to use 'rubbing alcohol' (70% isopropyl sold as 'rubbing alcohol' commonly has glycerin added to it.)

Fix is the same either way; get yourself some 91-99% isopropyl alcohol (drug store -- you want the 90+% stuff, because it will not contain glycerin) and use it to clean all the flux off the board around the replaced IC, and that residue. I'd also clean the stray heatsink compound off the heatsink below the transistor. It also looks like there's the usual crud on the board, might as well clean it up while you're at it -- just avoid the labels, the alcohol will take them right off.

Now back to your problem. The MPU doesn't reset itself and attempt to do anything until its supply rail are in limits, so while it could probably run (briefly and not necessarily well) on 4.3V, it will not attempt to.

It's most likely an issue with your power supply (bad filter cap, regulator, or burned up resistor), but to determine that, while you've got the board out of the machine, power it up, and (carefully, avoiding the HV windings) measure AC voltage across the winding used to supply 5V. I'm betting that looks good.

IC1 is your 5V regulator, so someone's worked on this problem before (and failed.)

Reconnect the power supply board, but not the outputs. Connect your meter to the +5VDC test point. Set it to the /AC/ mode, and tell me how many "AC volts" it measures. If it's more than mere tens of millivolts, then C7 may be bad, but we'll check one other spot first:

Measure DC volts, then AC volts between ground and pin 11/12 of IC1. If AC measures high here, then one of the following is bad:

- D2/D3 (These are 1N4001 diodes used as a half rectifying bridge)
- C3 (more likely to have failed than the diodes)

If DC voltages reads low on this side of IC1, then C2 may be bad.

Power off and disconnect the power board; and test D2/D3 with your meter's diode test function.

I'm actually a little surprised they replaced IC1 and didn't bother to do C3 while they were in there.

tl;dr version: Critical electrolytics here are C2, C3 & C7. Critical diodes are D2 and D3, and then we have IC1 itself, but it looks like someone tried that, so replace it only as a last resort. If you're just going to replace parts and see what happens, do the 3 caps I mentioned.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from Majdi:

tl;dr version: Critical electrolytics here are C2, C3 & C7. Critical diodes are D2 and D3, and then we have IC1 itself, but it looks like someone tried that, so replace it only as a last resort. If you're just going to replace parts and see what happens, do the 3 caps I mentioned.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation, I appreciate it. I'll take these measurements this evening.

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