If AC/DC is not immersed in the theme, then I’d like to know what is!

No dude. Running TWD on Spike as a field test of the hardware was not solving all the problems. It was a task done with a finite scope to achieve a certain result - Test the hardware. It was also something done as a prototype - which means you don't productize the the work. Little reuse, finite scope, hacks allowed.

To redo tron with hardware that is now 7 years newer?
- The entire wiring harness must be redone
- The entire playfield mechanical layout must be redone
- The emulation software or porting must be redone
- Dealing with the change in A/V must be decided and implemented
- With different cabinet and electrical, must go through all approvals again
- All new documentation

And that's just the highlights...

Do you not realize the entire underside of a PF today is done differently than a pre-spike game? Even the flippers are not mounted the same because they must account for the node board 8 location.

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Spike 2 PF
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But you think this is just 'backwards compatible'.. lol. Go check in with your friends again..

They didn't need backwards compatibility - the point of the system was to DO AWAY with the old construct of how a game was built. The platform can run old games because it's a CPU that can run any code... but running emulation only covers the software gap - not the hardware nor driving that harware.

That's why CGC has a simple off the shelf CPU running the game code and large amounts of abstraction layer software to interface between the emulator and the hardware they built to drive the actual physical game.

Stern has similar problems. Achievable, yes... but certainly not easier to do than TO RUN A GAME ALREADY COMPLETED.

Stern could just write an order for 500 SAM board sets. Poof. Tron.

So your engineer “girlfriend from Canada that no one has ever met” told you that they designed backwards compatibility into the spike 2 platform? None of this is based in reality.

Poof. Check the availability of amtel AT91R40008 microcontrollers. Nothing is ever getting built on the SAM platform again

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NLA parts are still NLA….

Manufacturing moves forward all the time… moving backwards isn’t always achievable. New designs take time and money…

And all this is competing with stuff they can build with almost no effort…

Anyone listened to Kaneda's Pinball Posdcast this morning? He said that Tron vault is coming next year Mentioned that Disney is renewing a license next year since they have more Tron stuff coming!! Woot!! Does wonders to my Zen thing, man!
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The LCD upgrade rumors I've heard have come from people more "in the know" than I am and they seem to think it will be LOTR and possibly GB. Doesn't mean TRON won't happen instead of one of them and also doesn't mean any of them will get built.

nah. It's Tron.

Course it is.

Listen Mr. Bus, I am done speaking with your uneducated self. Everything you mention is not a big deal from a technical perspective and was not a big deal for Stern. Bottom line is, you will be wrong and I will be right, the only question is, are you going to admit you were wrong when the game comes out? It is happening, it’s been in motion for a while.

I finally bought a color DMD for my LOTR after owning it for 7 years.
With that being said. I'm 100% sure the next vault/upgrade will be a new LOTR with movie footage.

Lol, this is like me looking for an old Data East for 2 years, bought one 6 hours round trip, 2 days later 3 of the same appear near by.

Anyway, lol, it is Tron though. But maybe lotr is next. Cheers

Prior evidence says no, he will not.

I'm uneducated because your GF from canada told you how things are really done? Ok.. lol

The very fact you try to gauge 'right or wrong' based on if the game is made or not shows you don't understand what the post says.

FFS it's even broken down for you in ONE LINE -- "Achievable, yes... but certainly not easier to do than TO RUN A GAME ALREADY COMPLETED."

The issue for me is I really want a Tron, so buy a Pro now, or wait for this rumored vault? Beats me.

Never said it couldn't happen. We just pointed out that there would be significant effort involved to make it work. Sheeesh.

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Buy a Pro. It could be years if ever.

https://insidethemagic.net/2022/09/everything-you-need-to-know-about-tron-lightcycle-run-at-walt-disney-world-th1mmb/

It’s coming to Disney World people!! Let’s go! Tron VE is already done!

If you can buy a game buy it. They don’t come around that often. Passing up an opportunity seems silly if you want it.

Could a new one be coming? Hey sure, I have no idea. But someone has been claiming it’s happening every year for years. I’m not judging anyone, just saying, we’ve heard it too many times by now.

If they make a new one they make a new one. Enjoy what you have either way is my advice.

Answer is no on tron or any dmd machine. They might make new one from the original movie.

Nothing wrong with getting both a Tron Pro now and Tron VE when it comes out!

So, that's a yes to a Tron based on the original movie? If it's the same layout with improved code, why not?!!

To the death guys! Lol (gentle reminder we're still talking about pinball here!)

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Thanks for the humour and cartoon. It deflated my urge to respond to the one claiming to be an educated collector calling engineers such as myself uneducated. As you point out, it's only pinball, it's supposed to be fun.

As an engineer myself, it was a tough conversation.

The issue I'm seeing is .....finding those Mods from 6 years ago. Tron is great but when it's modded out, it's amazing. The EL ramps aren't in production nor is the arcade....2 big mods to make the game that much special. Hopefully if a VE does come, someone will revisit those mods

Surely a VE, if it ever eventuates, will come with the EL ramps. A true "Premium" model.

I believe the arcade is in fact being made... is not it?
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It's a beautiful game, but too linear and gets old fast. GnR is a beautiful game, too...

They haven’t done a run of them in a while but they are putting names on a waitlist and using that to gauge interest and determine if they do another run. I’ve been on this “list” for about a year.

I doubt that will be a problem since I believe a Tron VE is a pipe dream, but how is that a fair wager? Without setting a timeframe, you never lose, because you can still claim "It's coming soon".

If we DO set a timeframe, should 6 years not already be long enough? That's how long ago this thread was started.

I'm another Engineer who knows the effort involved in a Spike "port" is a lot more effort than many of you are giving credit for. Just because a similar task has been done once or twice before does not mean that it is now "easy money". Easier than a brand new game, with all new layout, software, art assets, yes. Easier than manufacturing more of a game already on the Spike platform, no.

We love analogies, right? So, we've sent people to the moon before. Technology is far more advanced now than it was then. Sending people now would be "easy money", right? Have you followed any of the Artemis program?

Granted, pinball is not rocket science, but nothing technical is ever as simple as it seems like it should be.

Sorry peeps No Tron VE is coming the absolute thought of this to me is utterly ridiculous. Best case scenario is a possible re-designed Spike 3 Tron.

Tron with lcd

nah. spike II is fine.

I’m waiting for people to start unloading their Trons. It’s gonna happen

I've already seen a few more than usual coming up for sale lately...

Fast forward to the 'Bond' era, where reception has been a bit subdued all considering (such a fantastic license!) due to underwhelming design, iffy marketing campaign and overreaching pricing strategies: the current market actually makes producing a bunch of VE even more of a compelling idea! JJP and Stern are currently testing the absolute price ranges the hobby will support. I believe Stern will take it a step further and test the VE market again with what they think is going to be there safest bets: Tron VE, probably followed by a few others as well. Thus, making it a real element in their future lineups (Pro, Premium, LE, SLE and ultimately VE).

When developing there games, here's to hoping Stern will always be a bit more like SpaceX and a bit less than with the Artemis Program..!

Again, this is a forum to openly discuss the fun hobby we all love so much! And there's actually no real answers being posted until we see those games come out!

Here's the thing though... you make the argument these titles would be a good idea because 'you don't necessarily have to put in as much energy than coming up with new designs' and even infer it would have been a good pandemic project.

If your motivation is 'its easier' -- Then existing Spike games are even BETTER candidates than SAM/Whitestar games because those are EVEN EASIER because they can be built w/o any rework. But let's continue with your postulate...

You say these games take less energy... that point has already been addressed in the thread why these games actually represent a ton of work.. but let's take your assumption and play it out. Use a crude assumption.. let's say reworking a SAM game is 40% less work (just to be optimistic for you). The savings is in the development time and expenses. So you have some reduced cost, but what about your revenues? How does this vault earn for you vs a new title?

1) Pricing per unit - Is a vault a candidate for higher price points vs another new title? Not likely, you already have pressure to be LOWER priced as it's re-tread

2) Potential Sales numbers - When selling a vault title you are trying to fill demand that has grown while the game was unavailable. Your marketplace is not virgin - your prior runs have already satisfied a lot of the market. Those games are still out there. So in effect, you are competing with yourself. Contrast this with a new title... where there is no alternative to get that title but to buy your new game. This intrinsically limits your total potential sales. How many do you think the total market can absorb of a title? 2k? 4k? 5k? 6k? If you already have 3k examples out there, your potential sales are less than half of a successful unique game.

So, if you have a game you are pressured to sell at the low end of the price band and your ambitions for total of units is potentially less than half vs a new unique title.. Will this value that you saved money making, actually make you more money than a new title that you can sell at a higher price, and sell more units of?

Look at the sizes of vault runs in the past... they are measured in hundreds. New titles are doing 500-1000 JUST IN THE LE versions.

When you look at the sales opportunity, is the vault really a model that makes Stern more money than making a new game?

And now that Stern has such huge backed up demand, opportunity on the manufacturing line is VERY valuable. Time spent building a vault takes away from building another title.

The 'savings' you get from reusing an old title are overshadowed by the smaller potential run and price pressure. Remember, lower sized runs lose economies of scale in parts as well.

But you say "but what about CGC Remakes... those make sense!"

CGC remakes work even though they too have to do rework to the games for a few reasons

1- Most importantly, they are not competing with other projects internally that can demand higher prices and higher sales volumes
2 - CGC expands the potential market by IMPROVING the games vs the originals. They basically are making premium versions of the old games. -- But can't Stern do that with their vaults... Of course.. but doesn't that undermine the whole "its easier to make a vault" if you go through and do all this kind of add to the games to make them more distinct? All that work undermines your premise of 'its easier'. That's why most vaults prior have been largely streamlined add-ons/changes

Unlike Stern, CGC isn't deciding if it's better to make Bond vs vaulting Star Trek again... And we can see how much effort CGC puts into modernizing older games to 1) make them buildable and 2) differentiate them enough to help expand their potential market.

Remakes are about trying to capitalize on past success and squeezing it for what you can. Up till now, CGC hasn't been in the game of trying to create new even MORE successful titles that can outsell remakes. Stern is in that business...

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Where's my fuckin VE Stern?

Stop whining. You already have a Tron.

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Lolol

I think you meant to reply "Stop winning. You already have a Tron."
I fixed it for you!

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So, the CliffNotes' version of your last few posts would be "Tron VE is not going to happen. It's not coming".

Myself, still seeing a Tron VE coming to a distributor near you sometimes next year!

Fact is, none of us make decisions at Stern, none of us have any idea.

Some of us like speculating and hoping and are here for the discussion, some of us like presenting ourselves as fucking experts on any subject at all and want to be treated as if they are the be all and end all of any discussion.

Nobody but Stern knows what they will do or how easy it is, or how profitable it is or even if it's fits with the owners/managers vision for where they want to progress.

We are all making it up as we go along, just that only some of us admit that and others want to be seen as speaking fact.

No - I'm countering your points why you think it was a simple idea they should have already done and pointing out the business reasons why it's not the slam dunk some believe it to be.

If you want to
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And hide from any facts that don't support the narrative, it just proves you're closing your eyes and praying.

Good news tho, it doesn't cost you anything to keep the dream alive.

Stern doesn't live in an alternate universe with their own constraints. They still live on the same planet we do and have to face the same factors. What they decide is up to them; what they must face is not Stern-exclusive insight.

CliffsNotes version of this whole thread…

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