This is one of a several posts I have read recently in the forums proposing to somehow restrict the ability of newer members to rate games. I strongly object to this suggestion, and I think it would really turn people off from joining the site.

I joined Pinside recently, after being an avid player on location for several years, mainly because I am planning to move to a bigger place in the near future and want to buy a pinball machine when that happens. I have been checking the site every few days, and just by reading, I am learning a great deal about pinball machine ownership, what to look for, what to expect, what kind of games I may be able to afford, and lots of other things. It has been very educational and enlightening for me, and made me even more excited to move and get a game as soon as possible.

But since I have never owned a game of my own and am not ready to buy one just yet, my ability to actually participate in the discussions on the forums is pretty limited. I try to comment when I think I have something relevant to say, but that doesn't happen too often yet. Mostly I just lurk and read.

Because of my lack of experience in ownership/buying/selling pinball machines, rating games is basically the only way I feel like I am able to actually participate in and contribute to Pinside. If the site placed a strict limit on my ability to do that, simply because I have not been a member for years, that would significantly reduce my enjoyment of the site and make me a lot less interested in being a member at all.

It basically amounts to telling people new to the hobby that they are unwelcome and it feels very mean. I don't think that's necessarily a message anyone who has made these suggestions intended, but to a new member, that is how it comes across.

I don't like this idea either. I think the ultimate result of something like this would be that the vast majority of ratings on the site end up being for maybe 20 to 30 games. I personally don't care about what is in the top 10 or top 20 or number 1 on the list because all the A games are way outside my budget anytime in the foreseeable future anyhow. I am far more interested in reading the reviews for the B and C list titles, because those are machines I am probably going to end up getting. If you limited people's ability to rate games to only a "Top 10," then you would end up with even fewer ratings for less popular and less famous games than you have now. I wish most of those games had more comments!

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If I could see any change to the rating system, it would be for members to have the ability to leave comments on a game without giving it a rating. I have only rated games that I have played enough to feel that I really have a decent sense of what they have to offer, which for me hovers around the 50 plays or more on a machine mark. (I know other people have lower thresholds, they are probably better pinball players than me.) There are a lot of games I play or have played enough that I feel like my impressions could be helpful to someone wanting to learn more about the machine, but have not played enough to feel like I am qualified to give a numerical score in so many different categories.

I think most people are honest here and the obvious trolls get weeded out and a few marginal troll votes get through but after a while it evens out really well.Hey we are all pinball fans not just Stern fans,B/W fans or JJP fans etc. This is a pinball site for all pinball.....

I have stated this fact all along as well, The newer Sterns TF-LE, ACDC, SM, Tron, and others are a blast to play compared to the majority of older Bally/Williams titles. Sure they are licensed pins, but so what?? I really think most of the Stern bashers are Bally/Williams collectors that want to see their pins rise in value, simple as that. The newer machines have better sound/animations, and toys to boot regardless of build qualilty. Sterns do belong in the top 10.

I have a lot of pins on my wishlist but,The next pin I buy will be a LCD era pin.Unless I stumble upon a deal that I can't refuse!

I understand your theories, and they can be applied for each side. Do I think a new owner of ACDC who's had it a week and ranks it a 10 out of 10 is being honest with themselves? No i don't.

The other part about someone not liking a game that you like, and meaning they have never played it is a joke. Tron isn't a new game like ACDC...people have had plenty of time to play it and rank it. Of course people are going to over exaggerate on both sides of the spectrum.
I think TZ is the best game ever made & I've owned it for 7 years and would never sell it. Do I have it ranked at a 10? No way. I don't have Tron ranked at a 5 either (although i do have IM ranked there). I do have Tron in the 7's though, and I've played it a crap load, and it's my honest ranking.

In the last 2 weeks I've played a lot more Fish Tales than Tron btw. So I don't know what you mean by "prefer." Would I rather own a Tron, sure, it's worth more money. Would I prefer to own a FT at FT pricing over a Tron at Tron prices? 100% of the time.

EDIT: As for the Pro rating above the LE, I actually don't see a huge problem with that. It sounds weird but they are different games, so probably reviewed by different people. If you own an LE and it's a 10, great, but you probably aren't going to even rank the pro model.

I agree to an extent however, in my case, the ratings came first, then I chased those games. I own 2 of my top 4 rated games and I am THRILLED that I found them.

Last comment on this from me...one of my favorite titles is ranked fairly close to #150. Since in my opinion I would rather have this game than approximately 140 others ranked higher, does that mean that the rating are effed up because so many people like other games more than the one I want?

Think about abacus dude with his BBH. The title is mostly abhorred around here, but HE loves it. Go with your own opinions when it comes to games, peeps. I would have never owned Congo if I had only followed the ratings...and it has climbed about 20 spots since I first played it.

I will quit babbling now since even I am starting to have no idea where I am going with this.

Have a pleasant afternoon.

I think part of the question is why the Tron LE would rate lower than the pro version, to me that doesn't compute. If someone could explain why the LE rated lower than the pro.

But then again this is a popularity contest such as who do you think is more sexy Marylin Monroe or Kate Upton where there does not seem to be a clear answer it could be either or neither but the votes are just votes of popularity not like an official judging committee.

Because they are different games, ranked by different people, thus ending up with different ratings.

It's not like you goto your buddy's house and he has the LE on one side and the Pro on the other and you weigh the pros and cons of each.
EDIT: I do understand what you mean though. A game like Tron I don't think there's a reason that the LE would be below the Pro IF all things were equal (which they aren't). Now a game like TF I think it is possible for a very different ranking.

I agree. For me, the "why" is much more important than the numerical score. There are some games that are very popular that I simply don't care for at all (TAF, TZ), and other games that don't even make the Top 100 that I personally think are very fun (Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle, Rollergames). Knowing what someone likes or dislikes about a game is far more informative than just seeing a number.

I wouldn't want people making bad decisions about what games to buy based on inaccurate rankings, but I also think some of the fears about this on these forums are somewhat overblown. Is there anyone out there who knows nothing about pinball, decides they want a game, and goes straight out to buy the #1 machine of the week based solely on Pinside rankings? I suppose it's possible, but I can't imagine that there are more than a handful of people like that, if any.

Thanks for the suggestions! There is an HS2 at a location I frequent, and I've really been enjoying playing it. I would be more than happy to own one. I've never been able to get into BSD, and only played T2 a handful of times - definitely not form an opinion. I hear lots of good things about Tommy, but have never had a chance to play one myself. Hopefully soon!

I'll agree on the sound... maybe. But I would hope Stern's sound would be better than a 20 year old BW game.
As for animations and toys, sorry. There is not a Stern in existence that has a toy of any kind that rivals the creativity of the Bally Williams era. If you like plastic action figures that slide out of the way, then Stern is for you. Even a great game like Tron does not have a single toy that is truly interesting. Spinning discs go back to the 70's at least.
And animations that are just digitized versions of live video, well, that's not really all that hard to pull of is it?

THANK YOU. What do any Stern games have really?

ACDC has a bell, kinda cool but not earth shattering.
Tron has nothing
TRS, uff let's not even talk about it
TDK - the crane is really cool, best "toy" I can think of on a Stern. Baltimore bridge is stupid.
IM - nothing really.
LOTR - that's going back a ways and ring is cool for sure. But the height of needless action figures stuck on everywhere...really takes the look down for that title. First time i saw it I thought the owners kids had just glued all their crap on it.

But yeah, nothing super exciting there. And seriously someone needs to step in and deal with the dolls, er, action figures on games. It's silly.

I would say this is related to the fact that more people have had exposure to the Pro to rate it. I have not been able to play either, so neither has been ranked by me.

Great toys - POTC moving ship, ACDC Bell, LOTR Ring Magnet, TF-LE Starscream to name a few...
Animations on ACDC and LOTR easily rival any bally/williams games.

You are seeing bally/williams creativitiy in non-licensed themed pins, yes...they were original, but now we live in a licensed world and to mass produce pinballs to make money, licensed themes they are and creativity goes hand in hand with game designers and license holders....It is give and take agreement between the two.

I would love to see some original non-movie themed pins out there, but will Stern ever make any more, I doubt it.....It has to appeal to the masses.

p

I do agree with what your saying about licensened pins to a degree. But I wonder how much of the non exciting stuff is just lazyness/the easy road.
We all have our own opinions, but Starscream is not an interesting toy in mine. It's a large gray colored actions figure that looks kind of dumb. I guess it's better than the ironhide mini playfield, which was a total dud.
But that's my point; could Stern being tying to do more? I like the bell myself, I think it's a funtional cool thing that makes sense. Then on the other end you have TF or IM. IM is the bottom of the barrel to me. Shoot for this action figure, or the other figure! Wait...here comes a bigger action figure out of the middle, yippee! Could they be doing more interesting stuff? Maybe...I'm not a Stern hater per se so i don't know. I know I see many people gluing on their own trash onto the their playfields so maybe it's what the people want?

I think is all boils down to money...just like everything else. Starscream is on the hurry up when he looks like he has been shocked. I do like actions figures and mods, which I guess, does turn many purists off... Just like the toys I guess??

I think every Stern fan has to realize that, due to many years of being the only show in town, laziness and the "take it or leave it" mentality just took over.
If it was not for the great designers they had on staff, many games would have been unplayable... many still are.
AC/DC is great (anything other than the pro), but it was developed in the JJP era, where Stern now has to compete with a company that has promised not to cut corners. The monopoly is over and I will definitely buy future Stern product as a result of their new found direction (I hope), but let's not pretend that the last 15 years have been anything but hit-and-miss mediocrity from them. And a bell is not a toy.
Show me something that competes with MM's castle, TOM's trunk, even Rudy from FH. Those are toys that were developed in an era where being the best mattered... not being the only show in town. As for licensing. Sme of my favorite B/W games were licensed TAF, IJ, SS etc... They just knew how to make the most of them, not use them as a crutch to sell game. But that's just my opinion.

I think the bell is a toy, hell a pinball machine is a toy in itself!!
POTC ship is a great toy! I had a FH and RS machine and couldn't stand those talking heads, thus the reason for selling the machines. I did like the commentary from Rudy in FH though.
I am just thankful that we have Stern to praise or bash otherwise I might me sitting around doing nada.

p

Well the top 100 is definately screwed up! TFLE #4 best pin ever made get real it would feel lucky being in the top 100 at all, its a joke that a pin with so many flaws and issues is at #4, this just reminds me why I don't bother with the top 100.

I've played Tron LE plenty, I rated it a 6.9 something and yes, I'd rather have Fish Tales than Tron LE. I think the game is average. It looks "great", but I think the game is "alright", not great. I think it's appropriately ranked in the 20's. I understand that some people love this game, but honestly I don't see it.

I love the TF-LE machines, have to be darn good play to make all those shots.

The Tron LE rating dropped because someone posted "omg! Tron is #1" and then a bunch of Stern bashers ran as fast as they could and gave it a low score.

It's as simple as that.

egg. zachery.

Seriously....is it really that important kids! Who would agree with ranking order under any rating circumstances anyhow?

This has made me care even less.....

I think people are complaining over nothing. The LE pro split just last week, Tron got #1 with like 20 votes, what did you expect? it's gonna get back to a better average now. it has 110 votes this week.

You think AC/DC LE is gonna stay #1 ? hell no, once again it's like 20 votes, watch that and Transformers LE fall back close to where the pro versions are.

So go into your preferences and move the rating sliders around until they do fit what you believe. I lowered artwork, animations, backglass to 1's or 2's and moved fun, gameplay, etc to 10. The ratings you give will be weighted by those favors you set. You will have to go into each of your ratings and click save again for your new weights to take effect.

I understand fully. Wasn't talking about your ratings/rankings; just your desired ownership, past ownership, and current ownership as shown in your list. Did not even look at your rankings; just your list of what you have. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Good luck getting your dibs eventually!

The rating system will never be accurate until one thing happens...the rating lists are split into manufacturer and era. The problem is that everybody wants their MM/AFM/etc on top and the best way to do that is to rip other games that may challenge that. If you separate the lists, then all that goes away...it's just top Williams games vs other dmd Williams, Sterns vs Sterns, old Bally's vs Bally's, Gottlieb Em's vs Gottlieb EM's, etc. No more arguing, problem solved.

Don't we already have them broken down what way, Taylor?

http://pinside.com/pinball/top-100/various/manufacturers ?

What flaws and issues are those?

No, not quite like that. The top 100 list would have to be dissolved for those manufacturer lists to be accurate...I highly doubt that a bunch of Stern owners are the ones that knocked Tron LE off the top spot, lol. If the games never appear on the same list (i.e. like MM and Tron), then there's no reason to knock one game down over another just because of manufacturer bias (which is 99.9999% of the reason why games get knocked down).

AC/DC #1 now? Crazy shifts lately.

This stuff will all work itself out.

Taylor, i unfortunately feel you are probably right. The reason i say probably is that i am one of the (few?) people who honestly are not Tron fans. But now i feel like i need to hide MY opinion because my low opinion of the game seems to rankle the masses. As it has been said, games will find their true spot over time.

I still like your idea, though. Later, pinheads...