I am a very disappointed and reluctant NO - at least in 2022.

My family has been waiting for Toy Story for years (youngest is 31 for reference). The possibilities are endless and as a big Pat Lawlor fan I’m hoping he knocks it out if the park with great Pixar audio and video assets and an (what I hope is obvious) awesome claw machine toy. I (think) I’m on multiple CE lists but I’ll have to pass early/

It’s pretty much going to come down to playfield quality. Jack once said it was the most important part of a game. And then Mirco made him look foolish. When I asked Jack at TPF why he didn’t change suppliers he replied “What choice do I have?”. I dunno but I’m guessing JJP is locked into a long term with Mirco or they have burned the other bridges.

I’m just not willing to gamble on getting a crap playfield (or constantly wondering if I did) with no warranty or reasonable hope of help if I do. My days of being able to replace a playfield are long gone. I’ll wait until sometime in 2023 to see what the community experience is and take another look then. But, as much as I would like to have a reason to change my mind, I don’t expect it will happen. Jack said it’ll be fine but that’s no longer enough for me.

At this point with my collection if I bring in a new game I expect it to stay a long time. Cactus Canyon Remake will already be taking the spot originally held for Toy Story. I agree with you that if I were to buy/sell in a short time it would probably be close to a wash so that’s not an issue but, with a new game already coming, I do question whether spending $10k+ now is a good idea. I’ll have to wait and see what the CE looks like (and if I could actually get one), but an LE will probably be fine and they should be available for a couple years.

But it comes back to the risk of a poor playfield. No matter how much we like the game theme/designer, a poor playfield and questionable support are game changers.

I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear. I’m reasonably comfortable with what I’ve heard about JJP support regarding anything other than playfield issues so general support is not a significant concern for me

Pinball is all about fun. Sounds like this is a great fit for your family. Congrats!

If it was a Toy Story pin and not TS4 and done even reasonably well I wouldn’t have blinked at $12k and almost certainly would have sprung for the CE.

Price matters but theme and game play are key.

As for TS4 an LE at $10k doesn’t do anything for me. I’m limited with space now; I’m not sure I’d keep TS4 if I got it for free - it’s that much of a miss.

No. 99 CEs sold (one was refunded). The other 900 CEs were allocated to distributors and there are distributors that still have them today.

I don’t. I’m sure many will enjoy it for what it is. I just don’t want to see people being duped into thinking it is some massive hit (or the hit it should’ve been) because “the CEs already sold out”.

The good thing is now people will have plenty of time to play the game first before deciding (which is how it should be anyway). CEs will be available for months and LEs aren’t going to sell out. In my case it doesn’t matter because this game isn’t the Toy Story I wanted (or expected). Just because it’s a huge miss for me doesn’t mean it will be for others.

And in the case of Chuck E. Cheese, locations

Cartoons and colors.

As the article states 100 CEs were sold direct. One customer got his transaction reversed so only 99 were sold. The rest were allocated to dealers. JJP considers them sold (to dealer inventory) but that doesn’t mean they’ve been sold to end users. Ditto the LEs.

I didn’t say it wasn’t. But it’s typical marketing fluff not evidence of actual demand.

CEs are still available. I’ve had multiple distributors call me asking if I wanted one. That almost certainly isn’t happening if the demand is what Jack implied.

A masterpiece? You came to this conclusion after a few games?

I agree that everyone should play the game - any game - before deciding whether or not purchasing makes sense. There are few games in pinball history that can be considered masterpieces. I’m pretty sure TS4 will never make that list.

Playing the game and having fun is not the issue.
PAYING for the game is the issue.

I don’t have to own every game I enjoy. But I have to love every game I own.

And yet none of it was updated with components from TS4.

No. JJP either licensed just TS4 or managed to completely misunderstand that most beloved license.
What they did with the pinball game is like saying Snow White is about an apple tree.

Just not the homes of most Toy Story fans.

You could probably get a Whirlwind and Gofers for <$12k. Then you could have two great shooting Lawlor games with a bash toy (and a spare), two spinning wheels and the jump ramp. I’ve got both so TS4 doesn’t really offer me anything I haven’t already got.

Great flow is easy to achieve if there is nothing on the playfield

You guys must’ve seen a different movie than I did.

Methinks you doest protest too much.

You really seem to have a vested interest in shilling this game. (And you made my point on the licensing. No one by your take, including Jack, wanted TS4. If that’s all that Disney was going to give them they should have walked away).

There’s so much else wrong I’m not going to take the time to respond to it all but here’s a quick one. Your comparison to JP doesn’t hold up. JP works fine as a generic dinosaur theme. The movie IP isn’t critical to its success.

Sounds like she’s pretty smart too!

Lol. Those are two completely different things. Until “people report[ing] playing the game” turn into confirmed game sales, the market has not spoken.

The “sales” you cite are not end user transactions, but distributor allocations. That JJP counts them as sales is irrelevant. What counts is whether collectors and operators buy them.

Way way too early to consider this game a sales success.

Investor Edition? Good god no.
The last thing this hobby needs is anything to further perpetuate the absurd idea that pinball machines are investments.

No. And, no matter how many times you try to spin it that way, the answer is still “No”.

A deposit is not a sale. If that were true then Stern is significantly undercounting their “sales”.

You need to get out more.

I’m a huge TS fan, but TS4 was a hard pass. It’s eye candy with not much to shoot which will get old (and dated) quickly. And NGG did the signature shot much better anyway.

From a strictly value perspective CCrLE wins hands down (almost on the topper and future Lyman code package alone). It’s a timeless theme, funny, nice variety of shots and has that “just one more game” appeal. And it’s $3k less, $4k if the topper isn’t a big deal for you.

CCrLE is going in my game room in the spot previously reserved for Toy Story.

Lol. If you’ve already decided CCr isn’t for you, why ask?

CCr is $8k, the SE+/LE with interactive topper is $9250.
TS4 is $12k or $15k with non-interactive topper.

Certainly not priced the same

TS4 was fun to play for an hour and I’ll play it again but I wouldn’t buy it.

CCr will be a sleeper hit. It may not have the sizzle of TS4 but it’s quite fun. Neither game is terribly deep though I expect CCr will change that with the upgrade code.

It will be interesting in a year to see operator’s experiences with TS4. The purchase price is probably not as much of an inhibitor as we might think because what matters most is total return, though that may take a hit if resale values hold up.

I don’t like the trend but I also don’t see JJP being relevant in the operator space; they really don’t seem to want to be there. Practically every JJP game I play on location has wet noodle flippers. I like to support location pinball but I’m now hesitant with JJP games. Stern seems to have figured out multiple target audiences; JJP seems directionless and may need to just pick a lane. I hope one day we learn more about the decision making that went into TS4.

Get a TS4. Swap out the cake toppers with Snow White, Ariel, Cinderella and others. Done. $12k + $2.99.

Not at all. It just shows that many think the price is out of line with the perceived value of ownership.

Yeah. Sigh.

Cost him $41 a game. :/

If you pull two mechs from TS4 there won’t be any left …

Not soon enough for the few that actually want them.

Way too soon for everyone else trying to sell their spots.

Get a No Good Gophers. Same idea, executed better and a far more satisfying shot when made. And it fits the theme better than Caboom.

The jump ramp is the best shot in TS4. Yes, the art is nice. Yes, the light show is nice. But when those are the main selling points on a $12k game, the overall rating has to be lower.

I agree with your first point. But not on the implication that if we disagree with part of the review that we somehow are complaining about SDTM.

They are high quality productions and Greg and Zach work well together. I think many categories are inflated but attribute that to the fact that Zach is a distributor who can’t afford to discourage potential customers and most games are reviewed in a vacuum (but I think that’s more of a generational thing).

My joking rule of thumb? If it’s less than a B+ they don’t like it

I have to agree. This analysis is dead on. Entertainment and information is not the same as knowledge and insight. Too often it’s flash (nice presentation and production) with little substance with both of you falling into the trap that so many do limiting pinball to “anything that’s happened in the last few years”. This was painfully obvious during the broadcast on Wayne Neyens where every comment was essentially a nod or an “un huh”.

That doesn’t necessarily make the broadcasts bad but these are for the most part thinly disguised sales videos that showcase very little of your actual knowledge of the history of the industry and hobby, the designers and innovations that made pinball what it is today and/or how the current generation is pushing the envelope.

This isn’t unique to SDTM either so this shouldn’t be read as Greg and Zach bashing - just a commentary on the podcast generation where filling air time seems more important than insightful and factual reporting.

Yes

Well, I bought CCrLE that took the slot that was earmarked for TS. I would have made room for both if not for TS4. Then after the TS4 reveal I bought an AFMr (my first non-NIB game in 7 years) to make sure I’d never have room for TS4

Why would you get downvotes for this? I think this is just human nature. People generally don’t want to wait.

And the growth of the hobby coupled with production challenges just makes it worse. JJP certainly isn’t producing games 4x faster than CGC if it would take 3-6 months to fulfill “low demand” but today’s low demand is still higher than what it was even a few years ago.

Manufacturers can only produce so many so fast - expanding capacity is not a trivial undertaking and I expect that when supply constraints ease in a few years (yes, it will take that long) that still won’t close the demand gap so waiting for games isn’t going away any time soon.

Dealer margin should be at least $1k and I think more on TS4.

When I saw this ad the first thing I thought of is the dealer just wanted to get out.

No. My wife played it today with some friends.

First words when she got home: “Thank God you didn’t buy that game!”’. I didn’t even have to ask which game she was talking about.

Some of her favorites are Lawlor games, especially Whirlwind, NGG and Safe Cracker. We have been waiting for TS for seven years. She doesn’t like DI and doesn’t like Wonka enough so unlikely we’ll own a JJP game in the future. Got some brownie points when I reminded her CCr LE was $9250 and TS was $15k.

I haven’t played TS4 much but code isn’t going to fix the incredibly stupid move to make a dated TS4 game instead of an evergreen classic like Toy Story.

I like both and would probably would have had DI a while ago if not for space. To bring in a new game a family favorite has to leave. If my wife isn’t on board we don’t bother with that discussion because I don’t want to piss her off which will happen if I sell a game see likes for one she doesn’t.

BTTF is a wild card. I have pseudo permission to buy it even if I don’t have a spot for it.

Just enough for every TS4 owner to get one.

Nah. TS4 is a Ford Pinto that thinks it’s a Porsche.