People haven’t been so pissed off at JJP nor at Pat Lawlor since ……. oh, Pat’s previous release of Wonka….. and before that it was ….. pitchforks and torches after seeing DI’s reveal. Since then, both have proven successful sellers. Pat Lawlor knows how to stir up emotions, and I appreciate his passion and fortitude. He is a pioneer of trying new things in pinball.

I’m not sure there is every time, but using the iPad for game action is rare. Don’t know what all they are doing but it does have digital pinball (I know TOM had it and so did JJPGNR) and interactive play (maybe like DI). But Pat seemed to be making a bigger deal about the screen system and how it worked (although this seemed like what they’ve already done on JJPOTC). Maybe what is most unique would be his extensive use of digital with this game. I think TS4 has 8 digital games going on ipad, but can’t be for sure. Most people might ask,” Is digital what I want to see in a pinball machine”? That might be a primary question presented by this game. Also if you want to see some awesome toys, pack it up, turn around and head home. You can put a Forky in it. Toys aren’t showing up, they weren’t invited.

JJP may have 99 problems, but immediately selling 2.5k TS4LE’s is not one of them. They may be able to build them along with 1k CE’s, all this year. Then new title hits the main line and 2nd line. If so, they could give TS4LE’s six months rest and then decide whether to build more. My guess is they’d add TS4LE’s back to the second line then. Expecting TS4 to sell 4k LE’s and 1k CE’s when they are retired.

Ultimately game play and related TS theme will pull many in to playing it. And that will lead to more sales. I hate that all the toys featured in TS4 other than Duke, suck! Very soon thousands of people will have a chance to play the game for themselves. Then we can see what it’s all about.

I remember playing a pinball once, and a kid next to me hops on TMNT. He is about 10 yo and his mom is standing by him and every time he hits a ramp or any shot, he is screaming and yelling and his mom reinforces every shot attempted as a masterpiece. She is almost as excited as he is, every time. Now I am thinking this may be some kind of hidden camera show because nobody could be that excited about accomplishing really nothing during the whole game. He leaves after one game and comes back later for one more “game of a lifetime”.

I concluded that a kid can legitimately be that enthused about playing pinball if they are a newbie. And a parent can be just as excited watching their kid play, if they are overly supportive of that child. This reminded me of the kid and her dad playing TS4 in the demo. Someone probably suggested both actors show a little emotion while playing pinball and they interpreted it to mean the overacting, hot mess we got.

Tools, tools, everywhere tools.

While we debate how much is too much and when did we get there, I can summarize one mindset. Recently I decided to celebrate making it out of covid and not having been on vacation, with the purchase of 2 pinball machines.

First up, an out-of-production, huo Stranger Things pro with all mods I wanted and after shipping from west coast and some powder coating, it will cost me $9k. For a pro model. I really like this game and have stalked purchasing one for two years. Then, I will be receiving TS4LE in a month. That one should cost $12.3k, after shipping. I know it will be fun and worth exploring the TS universe. Hopefully, gameplay reveals some magic, too. I’ll probably make a topper of the toys that’s didn’t get featured, because i actually like them and it reinforces on TS theme.

The choice of these two games hopefully demonstrates something. Both are bright and shiny pins with a lot of bling and they are about the same age. However they are drastically different pins if you compared them. One is not like the other, yet I like each one and have purchased both. Time will tell if either of these is still around next year. Might keep both, one or none. When I sell them it will be for market price and if I lose a few grand, it will have been worth it. Hoping I’ll still have both.

Per Pinball News, JJP sold $30M of pins opening day. That was 1k CE’s + 1.25k LE’s = 2.25k orders in one day. This week through end of year they should easily sell a matching 1.25k LE’s and JJP could be looking at having sold/made 4k TS4’s. That would be more sales than Rush sales, right? All but 1,250 LE’s are already ordered. All the dealers getting LE’s to sell means it is going to be raining TS4’s all year and games found everywhere to play. No need to own every pin but definitely a good one to play on location.

Ok so some number of CE’s sold through distribution channels and we’ll see if any dealer has them listed at msrp at the end of the week. If not, does that mean they are sold out? The point of having something to sell is to sell it. So if a dealer had unclaimed spots they’d get the word out, right? So if we hear nothing and if we see nothing on web sites, we must conclude 1k CE’s sold through to final customers. It is not relevant to argue whether this took 3 min, 3 hours, 3 days or 3 weeks. Also won’t matter if they are only 99.8% sold through and following up on some unsold units that didn’t financially clear. More info to come on whether the CE’s are gone or available in abundance somewhere.

Sale pending, didn’t take long for someone to rope and hog-tie that stray.

TS4 reminds me of Rush in acceptance. Rush had many people play it, who just don’t get it. I’m in that camp so can empathize. Rush fans on the other hand, really enjoy their game. And here is the part that kills me - they don’t care if anybody else likes it and buys it, they are just content. They don’t try to sell you or convert you. In fact if you ask them to be specific about what they like … they are very general and say it feels good and I like it.

So that brings us to TS4. Some like it, some don’t. Some like it a lot and some dislike it a lot. For those that don’t like it or think they won’t like it, they can’t believe other people who said it is really good do. For those that like it, they have been unable to pinpoint why, only that it is fun and enjoyable and it feels like TS. So frustrating. Well, everyone will need to play one and decide for themselves. This was kind of JJP’s strategy imo, to get everyone to try it and believing that will generate enough interest to sell out of games, eventually. Also they want their games on location earning money, because these games are $pricey.

You should be seeing more, try again and refresh the page.

I feel sorry for the folks who are scammed into buying this while expecting a rib sandwich.

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Don’t disagree and I expect to lose a grand on resale, but it might not be that bad, either. It seems to me that the increased msrp to customers is taking away much of the easy part of a flip. Therefore, far fewer flippers are buying these. Little room to profit and moderate risk means buy at retail, don’t overpay. Or buy a huo game from someone for probably less.

Great upcoming JJP themes:

Godfather 3

Matrix Resurrections

Rocky V

Mighty Ducks 3

Police Academy 4

Speed 2 Cruise Control

Paul Blart - Mall Cop 2

Next Karate Kid

Jaws Revenge

Toy Story 7

Funny, I was thinking of other movie theme possibilities today when I read your post. The ones I selected were considered the worse of the worst. Plenty of just plain sh*tty sequels out there.

Turns out it’s overpriced and smaller than thought.

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*** It’s Been Decided - TS4 is Fun and it’s Worth the Price. ***

The market has spoken, and most people report enjoying playing the game. Those that hate this offering will quickly add,”but it’s not worth it”. Well that is false too, as evidenced by week 1 sales. IMO JJP sold 1k CE’s and 2.5k LE’s. 3.5k people think TS4 is worth it and have put the money where their mouth is. More TS4 are being sold each day.

There seems to be a couple of posts where after someone plays TS4 then they bought an LE. Hence we conclude it is worth it for them. Some posts even report they will have a CE and LE, and this was after playing one.

But don’t feel mad or feel guilty if TS4 doesn’t hit your buttons. Not every game should appeal to you. It’s only pinball.

never said it was a “good” mech

I believe we’ve established in this thread when an order is taken and a non-refundable deposit made, that game gets counted as sold. Just like Stern does. A deposit collected is a sale. True Distributors have TS4LE’s available but they’ve been selling them too. So preliminary indications appear JJP sold 3.5k games (no I have no evidence just trying to take a market pulse and I’ll bet you this estimate is as good as anyone’s, at this point.). JJP has to build the games and fix the couple of issues I mentioned, before I’d consider this game successful. But the sales part of the equation, after 1 week, would have to be interpreted as successful. Right?

While everybody is standing over the corpse of TS4 pinball, I’m wondering what impact the current JJP prices will have on specifically other JJP titles. In the past it has floated along in lock step. I’m contemplating a Wonka and don’t want the prices to rise faster than my trigger finger.

Listened to Tripple Drainers and Travis described beating this game like a dead horse, over and over and over. An example he gave is most games feel like you are battling them and they are fighting back. In TS4, the game is not fighting back. Does that effect long term how much enjoyment you’ll get by playing it? It shouldn’t impact desire to play on location but it might if this is going in your home. I prefer games that are difficult and derive pleasure when finally having that good game. Guess that is why my dominatrice is always asking if I want a little more pain.

TS4 game has straight forward rules that are easy to learn and understand and game play is easy without having a difficult shot. So many blinking lights at once is confusing to all players but especially newer ones. Buy whatever pinball machines you like for your collection. I’m still waiting to play one to form my opinion.

Yesterday I played three JJP’s I don’t own -
Wonka, WOZ and DI. Wonka is my fave of the bunch and I had lots of fun. I have tried all 3 models and this one was an SE, still 92% as fun as the LE. Best value imo is buying the SE and modding it up.

Played DI for first in a long time and that layout is spectacular. I have trouble caring about the rules because I come to pinball to escape life not to feel like I am grinding through a real day. Wish that one would be rethemed.

WOZ surprised me for playing much smoother than I remembered and it is packed with mechanical wonder. Rules are deep, assets are well done and sculpts pretty. But I don’t care for the theme, which is one reason I sold it. No game will have everything you want but all should have enjoyable aspects.

I agree that having a deeper rule set would make the game more more appealing to me. Keep everything they have which covers easy aspects and add in some intermediate level tasks that require combos. Add a few new timed, mini-wizard modes, Make the existing 7 modes more difficult by requiring you to complete or restart. So many things could be done to code, but I don’t think Pat wants them in the game. I’m sure JJP will not be adjusting the code difficulty as game sells fine as is. So one must judge if they like what they see with game as-is and that requires playing one.

It is primarily the cell phone that is running low on battery and needs to be charged that kills me. Fine with the concept but I have enough troubles in my life just keeping my real cell phone charged. I can’t take more of it on my pin. I don’t want to be receiving a bunch of disaster video calls, either. Normally, I’d let those calls ring through and then block the number. Putting me in front of a DI is like placing a cucumber behind a cat and they turn around and notice it, yikes! Time to skedaddle. But then the cranky old man in me wants to shoot that gorgeous layout.

BTTf is massive IF Stern picks the right version. Movie 1 - hell yeah. Movies 1-3 - yeah. Movie 3 only - FFS No, Cartoon movie of BTTF - hell yeah. BTTF in name only and you have your own adventure (like JP is and Jaws is rumored to be) - no way.

I am surprised that weak slings are still a common condition. Can’t you just turn the power up?

My sister and I both found pimple poppers tv show and it is one of our faves to drop into a conversation. Dr does miracles.

Hot Wheels is a really good layout with well matched rules and really cool lighting. It should have had more designed in it like a kaboom jump, an inverted ramp and 360 wireform. It suffers from a theme that is meh. But the gameplay / excitement created / moments on Hotwheels is equal to TS4 for me and it is a $7.5k pin. With those mechanical elements added, it would make Hot Wheels re-enter my home. Toy Story 4 has good bones but it does not create much excitement, nor is it remembered once you’ve walked away. Maybe there is a lack of meaningful moments?

Played five games and scored 12M, but was only able to complete 4 scene inserts and sadly saw no wizard mode. If I had played more cautiously, I could have reached it. But that game was seventeen minutes long and it was no pushover. I saw a lot of stuff along the way. But I didn’t achieve anything important that I can remember.

Maybe kids really do run the world.

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The primary issue almost everyone has with TS4 is it’s mechanically barren and lacks satisfying moments. As such, the game is not meant for them. Note there is no amount of money that the game could be priced at that would cause them to buy one. That makes sense to me because there is a mismatch of product and potential buyer. Therefore complaining about price or value is a red herring. Sure it matters, but ONLY to those who want to buy TS4 and are tipping back and forth on whether to proceed.

A secondary issue is the TS4 theme and those who like TS1-3 and do not like TS4, are not the target audience, as they wouldn’t buy TS4 at a lower price. No, there is a mismatch of theme and potential buyer.

The chief reason for 4 to 1 ratio of those who were interested but don’t want one reflects that most people expected a game with many mechanical toys and a TS1 theme, and once they discovered TS4 wasn’t this and they weren’t the target audience, have removed themselves from further considering game.

So the biggest take away is JJP needs to manage Customers expectations. They should have leaked the TS4 theme a month before release. A lesson learned was that not every game a pinball manufacturer makes is for you, there is a target audience. Turns out TS4 target customers veered from previous JJP pool. Everyone that does not like TS4 might like Godfather, Steve Ritchie’s music pin (Van Halen is my guess) or Matrix.

Overall price increase of $1.5k means prices have reached a level where the game better be well integrated, complete and challenging. So going forward, the great sounding licenses will be purchased by those who like theme and there is value.

Alright I am going to have to pull an AIQ prem on you. That game is similar to TS4 in that it has no major toy. It has a spinning disc, but it raises and balls get pushed along a trough where you can see it thru playfield. It doesn’t have a jump ramp but it does have a cool reverse 360 ramp. I could care less about the Avengers theme. But the game is fun as hell to shoot. If I want to play modes I can shoot the blinking lights. That game cost $9k and I am seriously considering getting one

This week I played American Pinball’s: Oktoberfest, Hot Wheels and Valhalla. All were enjoyable but I strongly disliked flippers and overall feeling of shooting OKT. Hot Wheels is very exciting to shoot, easy to figure out and code fits it like a glove, but I dislike the theme. Valhalla was fun to shoot and had great callouts, but it is without a main toy or interesting technology. A day later and I can remember having a good time playing HW but not the other two. I will play HW whenever I can.

I also played JJP’s GNR and TS4. GNR was spectacular on all levels, so no additional comments are necessary. TS4 is well lit but gameplay is rather bland. Collected 4 to 5 scenes but couldn’t start carrousel. A few modes are not intuitive unless you’ve had someone explain it first. A day later and I can’t think of a single memory on TS4. In contrast I had many moments to cheer or curse GNR. Rules need to be explained to first timers on GNR but once you know how to lock balls, collect band members and to start and select a song - you have what your need. disclaimer I own GNR.

I also played Stern’s: SW, AIQ, DP, Mando, GZ & Rush. All were good but I really enjoyed playing DP & GZ. Next day I remember all about DP and GZ and disclaimer I own both.

Finally hit up Spooky and played Halloween. Enjoyed playing through modes and three levels of achievement. Did not start House mode to kill Jason. Next day I remember many fun times on Halloween. I am not planning to buy Halloween but will play it whenever I can.

To answer question raised in title, I am out on TS4. I rolled my deposit over to JJP’s next game (all faith in Erin M, even though he hasn’t made my Ozzy pin yet).