Quoted from iceman44:

Wonder how much Stern will raise prices for?
Bond next
Jaws and Elwin after that
Then BTTF
3 great licenses.
Is there even a breaking point?

Quoted from Bud:

Bahahaha, it’s coming and soon, just wait and it’s going to be bad.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Cool, enjoy! $12-15k well spent, then!
I'm sure you'll be able to convince people that TS4 is a better film than TS1-3 because of the "graphics."

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Uhh, pretty sure Duke Caboom is most people's favorite new character in TS4. He's Canada's greatest daredevil stuntman, and he's awesome![quoted image]

Quoted from Rarehero:

What strawman?

Quoted from Rarehero:

Keep waiting. Get to the wizard mode a few hundred times on your suicidal fork carnival game.

Quoted from zermeno68:

And with this folks... I'm out. FYI, there were multiple folks asking to take my spot. So, at least I can say the demand for the CE is still floating in the air.
I'll regret this down the road, but I'm limited to 4 games.
I've already paid for NIB Wonka LE from Automated Services in Connecticut. Saved a few pennies doing this as well. Thanks adol75 for the tip.
[quoted image]

Quoted from Dr-pin:

The game is gorgeous. I really dont mind it's ts4 either, just as long as the toy story athmosphere is in it.
What i do mind is how scarce, anemic and linear it looks.
I have a hard time seeing anybody not beeing bored out of their mind playing this for more then 200 games.
Just compare it to the elegance of ball paths in godzilla.
Ts4 looks like an eager kid wacking a pinyata(the pinyata is nice looking), whilst godzilla is the most graceful and beautiful flamenco dancer.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

The primary issue almost everyone has with TS4 is it’s mechanically barren and lacks satisfying moments.

Quoted from zaphX:

Same. Wonka is approaching 13,000 plays for us and is still a game we work on nightly.
The long term value we got from the last Lawlor/Katz combo was what made me jump into the CE immediately.
I don't care about the theme being TS4. I don't care about the theme at all, no matter which version of Toy Story is represented.
I don't care about clips, and I don't care TOO much about mechs if the code makes up for it (which was the case in Wonka IMO.)
I don't care if the movie scenes are represented on the screen without audio.
In short, the normal Pinside whines are not applicable to me.
I care about fun, deep code, and rewards that keep me reaching over time.

Quoted from iceman44:

The color choice of red powder coating on the CE was a big miss. Come on. After Wonka.
The run from 500 to 1,000 is huge. Stern included.
I’m giving the TS4CE to one daughter of mine after I play it for a while.
Middle daughter is a big STH fan so she’s gonna get that one.
Youngest one likes NBAFB! Still in school though and I can’t give that one up.

Quoted from iceman44:

It’s a beauty. Just looking for something different. Is Wonka flat?

Quoted from PtownPin:

Ahhh... makes sense...now I get why they had to charge $15K

Quoted from iceman44:

Post up your pins Jimmy.
What are you afraid of?
You know we are gonna laugh our asses off. Lol
I mean you get a break just from originating from LA/Cali. It explains a lot.

Quoted from iceman44:

Played some GNR and Wonka last night.
Some great JJP fun. Those two are right there with GZ, STH and EHOH for my current play time.

Quoted from snaroff:

Completely false and misguided. Rich, successful people are often tough critics. This idea that rich folk think everything is great is silly...really.

Quoted from rai:

Toys and features should be a C
Theme C+ for me, because it’s the worst TS movie, do you like Forkey more than Zurg?
How cool would it have been to have Zurg rise up from the PF like the Iron Monger bash toy?
They could have done some cool code like pick a character T-Rex, Mr Potato Head, Buzz etc and had different starting modes or scoring like SW or Potc has.
[quoted image]

Quoted from ZMeny:

Yup similar to ngg, same designer, so yup makes sense. The difference for me is that Ngg ramp is an eye sore.
And we believe that rating games shouldn’t be contingent upon price. That’s a different argument. But, we do feel like pricing is an important topic to discuss, which we did.

Quoted from snaroff:

I've been around plenty of 9-figure folks...they come in many different shapes and sizes. It's ridiculous to generalize. Pinsiders are a unique bunch. There are a lot of buyers that just want a game for a room and (as you say) just want eye candy. No doubt. *ALL* of JJP's games are eye candy...no argument whatsoever! What this group usually obsesses over is the GAME itself. Is it fun? Is it unique? Does it have longevity? I just picked up a GZ Premium and feel like I'll be playing that game for a very long time before I feel real comfortable with it. Tough game with some really unique and amazing shots/flow.

Quoted from TheLaw:

The "problem" is that these weirdos are the lucky type that just love everything pinball.
I was at this car show the other week and the DJ was playing all this old timey music "Dead Man's Curve" and shit like that. How lucky it would be to actually love that music; there's like a never ending supply of it and it's all the fucking same and you could listen to it all day and be happy.
Anyway, they're memorized by all things pinball like my kittens are with a laser pointer. It's weird, but lucky them. I wish I could play GB and not light myself on fire.

Quoted from iceman44:

It’s entertainment Freaky.
If you can’t figure out what you like then you are dumber than a brick.
Not saying you. Lol

Quoted from snaroff:

hmm...a fact about your 9-figure friends purchasing habits? Why mention their net worth if you weren't generalizing? Here is the definition, fyi...
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/generalizing

Quoted from snaroff:

So true...Zach and Greg are fun to watch, but I don't take the reviews very seriously. SINCE I KNOW WHAT I LIKE

Whatever...it really isn't that important! You reported a fact and didn't infer anything...there, I said it. Happy now?

Quoted from Rarehero:

You’re telling me in 12,000 plays on Wonka, you haven’t seen everything? Your comparative logic is just baffling.

Quoted from ROMM:

What is crazy to me is not so much the SDTM rating of the pin, but where it stands in the list compared to the other pins. I don't have a lot of time on TS4, only played it several times. I just did not want to waste anymore money on it. There were so many other machines at the location I preferred to play, and many of those are below where SDTM listed TS4. I would much rather play/own Tron (ranked the same as TS4) Monster Bash, Iron Maiden, Adam's family, WOZ, Metallica, Cactus Canyon, AIQ, all of which are scored lower than TS4. That is just crazy to me.

Quoted from Roostking:

I'm guessing you haven't actually seen pictures of TS4 yet then? Because there's absolutely nothing in the game lol what are you talking about?

Quoted from Waxx:

Are you saying coils = toys and/or fun? Hobbit would like a word because that game could have double the coils and it would still be less fun than a GZ Pro with the coils removed from everything but the flippers.

Quoted from zaphX:

Nope, that was me. And the spot is now sold.
I paid $2500 deposit against the $15000 MSRP, leaving the balance at $12,500 plus shipping/tax.
I sold my spot for $500, so I took a $2000 loss.
As you suggested to me earlier, I won't buy a game without playing it again.

Actually I transferred my ownership of the slot. So I am out, and the buyer deals with my distro directly.
And you are correct, leaving my distro holding the bag for a purchase decision I changed my mind on was not something I was willing to do.
The buyer is happy and excited to get the game at a discount, I am excited to move on and stop stressing about it, everyone wins.

Quoted from zaphX:

I'm not. Buying a new LE for 12K after losing 2K on the CE would be like buying an LE for 14K.
I might get back in on a used LE someday, but it depends on the price.
FOMO is cured for me.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

Why would distributors pay the deposit for someone else?
That is clearly a bad idea and hopefully they'll learn their lesson.

Quoted from snaroff:

Are coils a measure of fun or value?

Quoted from m00nmuppet:

If TS4 has double the coils of GZ, that's everlasting proof that coil count has nothing to do with fun or design excellence.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Because it takes cites and applies them poorly.
ToyStory has a lot of coils - but it doesn't have a lot of actual play features. TS4 is complex in that most of those drivers are tied up in elements players don't find exciting
It has 4 pop-bumpers to GZ's 1
It has a knocker to Sterns' fake knocker
It has two coils tied up in Benson posts
It has a lock post and the divertor
two saucers
Plus 7 more coils tied up in general playfield stuff (flippers, trough, slings,etc)
So 18 them are kind of boring...
Then you get into the real 'play features' and you get
a kickback
a scoop
jump ramp
gabby (which takes 2 coils)
drop target (which takes 2 coils)
spinning disc
So you really only get people seeing a spinning disc, jump ramp, gabby, and a controlled drop.. and if you want to highlight the ramp diverter and a physical lock. TS4 didn't bring play elements people weren't already very familiar with.
While TS4 has 18 coils of mechs tied up into boring almost pedestrian stuff.. GZ optimizes to only spending 9 coils on vanilla playfield stuff
3 flippers
1 pop
2 slings
trough+plunger
VUK
Feature wise godzilla delivers a all-time play experience only using
1 saucer
1 bridge coil
2 magnets
2 motors (shield and building)
So Godzilla using only 4 coils and 2 motors packs more experience than TS4's 7 coils and one motor in that same category of fun.
If anything it shows how TS4 spends a lot of BOM on elements that don't resonate with players as necessarily exciting (saucers and more controlled drops) vs the punch of Godzilla's design where one motor serves multiple features and there is more levels and play variation.
Godzilla shows how you can get so much more by being savy and TS4 shows how you can spend a lot and get a lot flatter experience.
Coils can be a indicator of complexity - but an indicator that shouldn't be extrapolated in all directions (see Hobbit too)

Quoted from romulusx:

The do not weigh 400lbs.

Quoted from Roostking:

Yea i was having posting issues lol.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

IMO, Using the wrong your doesn't make someone look like an idiot.
It's very much a subtle difference and when speaking the language you don't have to make the distinction.
The fact that that we have all these rules for all these common words like its/it's, there/their/they're, and to/two/too, just illustrates how counter intuitive the English language is.
Pinside is an internet forum. It's not a professional work environment. Most people don't feel the need to proof read. Many people here are typing things out on their phones and have a hard enough time trying to press the right keys in the first place.
You also can't know the background of the people typing. I'm sure for many here, English isn't their first language.
I personally have Aspergers and really struggled in English. I've always been top in class in math and science courses. However, to my brain, English is just a random set of rules seemingly pulled out of nowhere and with every rule having a multitude of exceptions. It's the most counter intuitive skill out there because there is no rhyme or reason behind half the rules. I personally find it frustrating to be in a group of fellow pinball enthusiasts and wind up being graded on the grammar of my posts like I'm back in those dreadful English courses.
The purpose of language is to convey a message. If nobody was confused by the message, then they were successful.
I don't find a small grammar slip up to be any indication of someone's intelligence.
On the other side of the fence, I find most grammar nazis are just conceded individuals, foolishly trying to show internet strangers that they do in fact have a superior intellect. Don't get me wrong, I don't think you fall into this camp. That is just my first impression when I see someone doing what you're doing.

Quoted from jazc4:

I will get to play TS4 in a few weeks. Look forward to making my own judgement. I won't buy it since it's out of my price range, but if it's fun I'll find places to play it.

Quoted from Jaytech10:

If you ran JJP and your last pin gnr LEs first run and CEs was being resold for a few thousand more. Ofcourse you raise prices to get rid of the scalpers. I would rather have JJP get all the money than leave some on the table for others. That's where stern makes mistakes. TS4 has 18 mechs and 1 virtual on the LCD. Mini game has a objective to do to increase tiki multi ball jackpots. So it counts.

Quoted from Tyler_Durden:

My little pony might be the greatest game ever, but I don't think i'm going to change my life to get into it.
Toystory IS a great movie, I just don't see any appeal in this game, and TS4 at that, it just seems odd that they chose number 4 but what do I know. The game is loud to look at.

Quoted from Roostking:

Show me on the doll where Godzilla touched you lol.
Modern Culture? FFS the latest Godzilla was a few years ago and its been around for decades and will outlive woody and the spoon for decades to come.
Some peoples kids.

Quoted from Roostking:

No, ratings matter and even after you were warned, you compared it to GZ. Lol. Flynn broke down the whole coil argument, you should understand what he says.
Again, TS4 and Godzilla. Some people and their mental gymnastics.
Still out.

Quoted from snaroff:

Of course, since we are the crazies buying these beasts! When "family and friends" are being *treated* to experience [X], it's really easy to see how they would have fun. What's not fun about free pinball??? Or anything, for that matter (playing games, eating, swimming, etc.). Feed 'um Domino's pizza...chances are they will love that free experience as well, despite the fact that Domino's pizza sucks.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

We all know by now though that more coils doesn’t necessary mean a better or an even more loaded game. Same goes for value.
Let’s compare motorized mechs, magnets, and detailed molds in GZ and Toy Story 4. Would you rather have 4 pop bumpers or a large motorized moving building with a motorized moving physical ball lock on top of it? Would you rather have a pop up bash toy (Gabby Gabby) or a motorized moving ramp that reveals a shot to a mechagodzilla mold with a magnet that captures the ball? Would you rather have a kick out shot or a breaking bridge mech? Would you rather have a ramp divertor or a magnetic newton ball mech? Would you rather the custom molds in GZ or the $20 Amazon cake toppers in Toy Story?
It’s toys, mechs, and molds in the examples above that help show coil count alone doesn’t mean more fun (or even more value). Motorized mechs, magnets, and molds mean just as much if not more then coils.

Quoted from Roostking:

Got any more crack? You are probably the only person in the world that would pick TS4 over GZ. Lol. TS4 will never ever even think about hitting the top 50, let alone dethroning the King? Good lord man..Glad you enjoy it though..

Quoted from Roostking:

if you aren't on drugs you need to start taking them

Quoted from rai:

You are a poor judge of pinball machines.

Quoted from TheLaw:

I always hope trolls at least get they're trolls and are having fun with it instead of seriously that deranged.
[quoted image]

Quoted from zaphX:

The ONLY opinion that matters on a pin is your own.
Not podcasters, not Pinside, not even the Pinside Top 100.
If you like a game, great. If you don't like it, it's not for you. Both positions are perfectly reasonable and valid.

Quoted from zaphX:

You are misunderstanding my position on this.
I don't need pins to appreciate. I buy them for what they are, at the price they are.
But people have thresholds for what a specific thing is worth TO THEM.
Example: Some people are content to drive Camry, some drive Porsches. To the Camry people, paying more than 35K (or whatever they cost) is not worth it because in their mind and for their preferences, "no car is worth more than that."
This is where I am with pins. They've pushed the pricing up to a tier that just doesn't interest me. I won't get 15K fun out of a CE pin.

Quoted from djsolzs:

Top 3 most beautiful pin Ive ever seen (the CE). The game itself just didnt meet my expectations. Looking to get more time on it

Quoted from konghusker:

RR Woz, CE wonka, pirates, gnr le, and hobbit are all equally as beautiful and I’d rank woz and hobbit above ts4 in looks.

Quoted from konghusker:

You do realize art is completely subjective right? The ts4 is gorgeous, but every jjp has been. As far as the grainy video on Woz, you obviously can’t appreciate classic film. I wouldn’t have it any other way. You sound like one of those guys that prefers the Star Wars special edition movies over the original films. Again, no jjp choice is wrong when talking about looks, and I’d put Woz and hobbit over all of them, but that’s simply my subjective opinion.

Quoted from Pinball-NJA:

I own
Stranger things Le
Godzilla LE
Jurassic park Le
Iron maiden Le
Mandalorion LE
Elvira prem
Deadpool prem
GnR ce
Annnnnnd TS4 ce…
I’ve own all the big Bally/Williams heavy hitters.
MM royal etc
I gotta say is my favourite pin out of everything I have right now, maaaaaaybe side by side with my Stranger things.
It has great replay ability, everyone that complained about it without playing, that played it at my place… ate their words.
Same complaints about Stranger things when it came out.
Not every theme can be rock or horror.
The only thing I didn’t like about it is the price.
That and I would of been happy with just a LE and saved some cash.
But over all. Killer pin that I play the most since it came out.
Hope that helps some people that are on the fence. If you can get it for lower then retail. You won’t be disappointed.

Quoted from Doctor6:

Ts4 is a super model

Quoted from konghusker:

And, no I don’t have a tsce, or seen one in person

Quoted from konghusker:

No problem, and thanks to you for being the authority on all things related to subjective pinball art opinions. It’s been helpful

Quoted from zaphX:

Reconcile that with games on the marketplace not selling at 2K off MSRP.

Quoted from konghusker:

Not really sure what your problem is or why you seem to need to argue. I already said the game is beautiful. I also said art and looks are subjective. Do you know the definition of subjective? Look it up. I’m done discussing it with you. I’m happy for you and your subjective opinion.

Quoted from zaphX:

You're right, there's not a category for that.
I guess because it really only matters when NIB, after that point the market drives the price up or down based on supply/demand.

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

yeah... NOPE. The code for Alien is completed and has been for years.
\PB is only updating THEIR OWN side of the code, which runs their OS and respective hardware - which is very buggy - but these updates do nothing to the game modes or actual playability.
I spent way too much time on the Alien thread as I waited for my machine. Finally cancelled my order 1 month ago and I am happy I did.
I also joined this club today, I played this game non-stop for hours at a friends house. The game is fantastic. I also own most of the top 10 machines ever made. I like TS4 a lot!
The price was fine with me as I did not pay MSRP. I respect that, would not pay that for a game so hated but the truth is, if you think this game is bad, you know little about what makes pinball fun - yup, that was a little troll move on my behalf - Now, I go to bed I will dream of the people who can't own this game but made a poor review of it because they watched it on a stream.
Sleep well.

Quoted from jake35:

Sorry I disagree.. lol. My Ferrari 458 spider is the best car I've ever owned.
[quoted image]

Quoted from Roostking:

Played this today, its shitbox of a pin. Wow...

Quoted from Dr-pin:

Finally had a chance to play this at location......
Not much in it. I was kind of schocked actually.
Place this next to a dialed in and most would bet dialed in cost the doubble.
On shots not much there either.
If i bought it, it wouldnt stay for more then a month.

Quoted from Dr-pin:

i´m a 57 years old senior consultant pulmonologist, i assure you, in my world nothing regarding pinball is considered cool.

If you like it, it´s great. I really loved hobbit and had it here for a long time, due to immersion and rules.
For me, there was nothing in it.(TS)
Would you really say compared to Woz, hobbit, pirates and gnr, that it didn´t lack effort?