Unknown but there were

400 Tron LE produced and 255 are represented on Pinside (more than half)
550 XMLE and 292 on Pinside (more than half)
1000 Godzilla LE and 468 on Pinside (almost half)
500 LotR LE and 263 on Pinside (more than half)
500 GnR CE and 238 on Pinside (almost half)
500 DP LE and 255 on Pinside (more than half)

550 TNA produced and 428 on Pinside most of TNA are represented on Pinside

Pinside is not the whole world but it seems to buy a lot of the LE/CE pins and if the majority of Pinside is walking away from TS4 CE they will have to find some other buyers somehow. There are just 64 TS4 CE represented on Pinside, I know that not all have received their games but there is nothing preventing people from adding it to their collection (BTW only 27 wishlist TS4 CE and 39 wishlist LE) meanwhile 717 people have DI on their wishlist.

Hey man people love RM! My taste is not everyone's.

I wonder what happened to the beat-up Tron LEs that were at Disneyland/World did they get thrown out or sold? I'm pretty sure they were owned by Disney and not an operator.

They also had some Avatar LE, Xmen LE, Avengers LE and Transformers LE. Does anyone know if any of them are still there?

I played that Tron LE must have been like 5 years ago it was totally blown out and dirty as hell. No idea but could have had ten's of thousands of plays by the look of it. But it was sad they didn't keep it clean.

You can say Pinside does not represent the entire world of Pinball but by gosh it does represent a lot. I only know like 7-8 guys real well (through Pinside) meaning I've been to their house multiple times. And of those guys like 3-4 own TNA and that's a game that only 550 exists in the whole world and yet 3-4 guys out of a handful that live in Maryland own TNA. Sure a few guys in Maryland probably owned TNA that I didn't know of course but my point is at least for TNA likely 80-90% of the market is/was Pinside.

Other games likely will be a different mixture of who buys it, but I do know if you eliminate 90% of Pinside that's not going to do well with sales and you can not argue one bit when there are a dozen for sale ads and zero (ZERO) wanted ads for a pin. When all the F/S ads are at $1K discount and zero sales.

I owned R&M for one year, and like a lot about it (the code, the art, the lights, sounds, rules and maybe a lot of the shots) but overall to me couldn't keep it because the shot geometry was not ok. I could only make the garage shot like 1 out of 10 attempts maybe not even. So they say take it apart and drill and relocate this and that but that's not me, I'm not drilling my pin to make it shoot like it should have from the factory. I love Spooky but they are really hit and miss on the build.

I sold it, miss it, if it was shooting ok I would have kept it, but no loss get another game in it's place, I love R&M but love JP, Godzilla, DP and BM66 just as well.

I agree that you can’t 100% say about the owners on Pinside. Some may have on order and not list it as owned but some might.

I agree also about casual grandparents, heck it’s possible. But also possible they’ll see JP the pin or SW the pin at $4500 vs TS4 at 3x the price and figure ‘the pin’ is good enough.

I am not sure either about ‘the pin’. It’s not for me, I bought Tron, Iron Man, TWD, Met pro for under $5k. I’m not in the mood to but ‘the pin’ for that money. I’d rather get a pro for $6k or whatever they cost.

But a new buyer might just look at ‘the pin’ as a nice entry point.

I’d bet if JJP went more basic and price at $6-7k they’d have a lot more casual buyers just on theme.

Not only is the % significant, but one thing is for sure (intuitively)...it's a VERY high % of the people that have vast collections and are looking to buy/trade/upgrade/etc. I know many people that have 1 game in their home (beside their pool table) and that's it. They aren't repeat buyers and don't "keep up" with the latest/greatest games being produced. Those folks have no interest in Pinside.

If a new game is bombing with this fairly large group of junkies, it's going to hurt the manufacturer. Anyone that doesn't believe this is sticking their head in the sand...

No doubt that R&M required a ton of tweaking to compensate for the manufacturing issues. I love the aggressive shot geometry. So much to shoot for from the upper flipper. Unfortunately, the execution of the design was very poor. No doubt. It's a shame. I really love the way mine shoots (after all the tweaks), but I understand owners that aren't motivated to take the game apart. Spooky just doesn't have the software platform/tools that Stern has. Would love to see Stern manufacture R&M

I’m not sure how TS4 came to this but since we’re on the subject , do you feel that Spooky would benefit from a standard “been there , done that “ layout ? I would think the licenses they mostly go after are there for them without competition. That being said , they’re going to gather they’re crowd no matter .Spooky is unique for that fact alone but match that with a Ritchie style shooting pin and I believe they would lock themselves in as a force to contend with .Basically what I’m trying to say is the titles they choose will set them apart ,now don’t try to reinvent the wheel and see what happens ? Does this make sense ?

I don't think it makes sense for Spooky to "play it safe" on design and let the license sell the game (if that's what you are saying). From my perspective, Scott Danesi (https://www.scottdanesi.com) is a superstar designer (who cares about all facets of the game...sound, light, layout, etc.). The only 2 Spooky games that I enjoy playing are his designs. I purchased a UMCE after my R&M purchase because I assumed Scott/Eric/Bowen would be involved (or at least influencing the game). My bad...ended up playing UMCE at an arcade before mine arrived and was deeply disappointed (and decided to sell mine at a loss soon after).

Only person Spooky said would be involved was Bowen that turned out not to be the case. Scott has a full time job with Pinball Life, games he's done have been on a contract basis in his spare time. Eric was brought on with R&M because Scott didn't want the hassle of coding the game and asked Eric to do it. Even full time designers at other companies rotate so expecting Scott to be involved right after R&M on HW/UM is strange.

Well I didnt cancel my Halloween for TS4 if that matters..

We got TNA at our league location and I cannot get enough of it .To me it is a true pinball machine being that it’s easy to understand and hard to master with plenty of adrenalin . .I have not had the chance to play any other spooky pins minus RnM a few times and this .I had a HW on order day one and during the wait I went on locations to play it and I kept coming out saying to myself “way too stop and go “and where did the left side triplets idea come from ? In pinball, the ball needs to keep moving .It needs to test the player with quick decisions but not overwhelm them .That is the balance that makes a pin great .My first pin was WOZRR and holy shit that was way too much to take in as far as code goes .Don’t get me wrong it’s a beut and with toys to spare but give me a MET prem any day all day .I just watched a EM clip on PotC and he said there’s targets everywhere because he doesn’t believe in posts that do nothing .I think he needs to understand those posts are there to make you aim better and not all minds work like yours .Pirates is fing insane to understand and 1/2 your shots are pure luck imo.In closing please don’t take me wrong , I thought Cary Hardy said it best in that “you can only do so much with a 2x4 sheet of plywood .All I’m trying to say to those chasing Stern is take a deep look at what pins got you into creating them .Do your fancy stuff but not at the expense of the silver balls motion and purpose .

It is okay to enjoy games with more simple code, but to say 1/2 the shots of any game are pure luck is just plain ridiculous! Get good

I am glad Eric is still coding R&M as the new challenge modes have the potential to take the game up another level.

Good point, but I really do think it boils down to the energy of the designer (and team). Team Elwin is doing brilliant work...and Keith is spot-on for distributing the praise to his team.

Interesting you mention that quote from Cary Hardy. Here is a Quincy Jones quote that I like a lot better. It has nothing to do with pinball, but you'll get the idea.

"Nadia Boulanger, my former teacher in Paris, used to tell me, "Quincy, there are only 12 notes, & until God gives us 13, I want you to know what everybody did with those 12." Bach, Beethoven, Bo Diddley, everybody...it’s the same 12 notes!!"

For me, Cary's quote is depressing...like we must have "seen it all" by now. Quincy's teacher's quote is a lot more uplifting & hopeful. There really are only 12 notes in Western music! So rather than think of pinball as a 2x4 sheet of plywood, I prefer to think of it as 12 notes. At the moment, Team Elwin and Scott Danesi are making incredible music with those 12 notes! Godzilla, Jurassic Park and Rick and Morty are all masterpieces...definitely restored my interest in pinball (which was starting to die, to be honest).

Funny, my current collection after a couple sales will be Godzilla, Jurrasic Park, Rick and Morty and....TS4.

Understood. Nevertheless, when the lead game designer is "Koris Barloff...?" you know something is amiss (https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/spooky-announces-halloween-pinball-deep-dive-in-depth-overview-of-the-machine-features-rules-and-more/). The lead designer of a game is really important and giving that responsibility to a newcomer or joking about it is kind of bizarre. Kind of obvious that Spooky doesn't have depth on the designer bench...

Well, we have similar tastes I still haven't played TS4, but it's unlikely to find a slot in my lineup. My last JJP was GNRLE loved looking at it, hated playing it. Lasted 5-6 months IIRC.

3/4 isn't bad. I haven't played TS4 yet, but I loved how Dialed In shot and enjoyed Wonka, but like the Toy Story theme better. I am hoping/betting it combines those elements. I have heard that it does. We'll see...

Will good for you!

IKR!

Every designer is a newcomer at some point. This company exists because Charlie thought he could bring something different to the hobby with the help of Ben Heck, nothing is amiss when your son and others who helped start the company are designing games and contributing. "Koris Barloff" is team Spooky, doesn't have to be one person.

I'm aware of all this, but when *I* fork over almost 10k for a game, I'd like some semblance of quality control. I mean giving newcomers a shot is great, but they still need leadership and adult supervision! Especially when they are stretching themselves to develop/manufacture 2 licenses AT THE SAME TIME! Lastly, teams needs leadership...there is a reason why almost all games ever produced have a lead designer. It's not arbitrary...someone needs to herd the cats, folks.

How aboot the clear design and vision of AMH? Handful of worst games I've ever played. Does R&M get universal love of its smooth great shots by a single lead designer? That sure isn't the consensus.

Now you're just being cute and argumentative, which is fine. No, having a leader doesn't guarantee a game is great. No, having a leader doesn't guarantee universal praise. Given your logic, you'd throw the baby (i.e. leader) out with the bath water. Fine...whatever.

I'll take it.

You don't like the layout but there are plenty of people that like it and welcome the uniqueness of it. I can see some people not liking two upper playfields or the ball lifters and that's fine, not every game needs to be lightning fast or have the ball immediately returned to your flipper to be enjoyed. These games are being made to be different on purpose, you just see it as lack of leadership or adult supervision when it doesn't shoot like a Ritchie or Borg game.

Wow this thread really went off the rails!Now back to the regular scheduled TS4 bashing.
Seriously speaking of JJP I wonder what conclusions Ken and crew came up with?
I forgot to say I was referring to the
questionnaire they sent out a couple of weeks ago.

You are assuming I'm entirely focused on layout (which I'm not). My collection is pretty diverse in terms of layout. I don't like it because I think it's "meh" from start to finish...callouts, audio, video, etc. All the stuff that takes a lot of taste and work. Also no doubt my strong opinions on UMCE is the really, really miserable code when it was introduced. Sure, all manufacturers are releasing unfinished code, but this was simply worse than usual (again, a side-effect of bore leadership/management). You don't get a second chance to make a first impression...

In my mind the only real mistake JJP made was over pricing the game. My guess is distributors are worried they'll be stuck with a shit ton of inventory once CE start shipping. That being said JJP probably doesn't care if they have the next game ready to go? Probably planning to stop LE production early, move to CE's, and then go to the next title.

Fair enough, I'm more familiar with HW codewise so can't comment on UM too much. I know they completely changed the main display animation and made some of the show clips full screen after feedback. I guess the first impression tends to stick with you longer if you bail on the game early and lose money to boot, not many people knew of UM so the theme would have to grow on most people from the start anyway.

Can distributors cancel their orders on TS4???

Good question although I doubt it especially if they were aware of the game details and price prior to committing ?

Usually true. I really waffled about bailing on UM after playing it on location with early code. I'm pretty happy with the game as it stands today -and I've had some long-time hobbyists over to play it, and they enjoyed it.

TS4 is a good pin. I own a LE, and I am really enjoying it. The main reason that it is being rated as it is, is not because of the play, theme, or "lack of toys," but rather because of the price; it has little to do with the game itself. I noticed that many raters do not own one and are basing their rating by playing a few games at an arcade or bar. I've been playing pinball for a long time, and can attest that it takes more than a dozen games to evaluate a pinball machine. Maybe the marketing strategy was not par with the expectations, but the machine is really a beautiful pin with lots of fun. I respect everyone's opinion, but disagree with the negative characterization this pin has received.

Totally agree with the rating part....whether u like the price or not its supposed to be about the game...TO be honest I think its a "FU" to JJP for pricing the game so high, and not loading it up with a bunch (or any) of unique toys.

I think at this time the Distributors may be communicating with each other as this may be the biggest FU I have ever seen on a pin launch.

Makes POTC look not so bad.

It seems like folks that already like JJP games are more likely to agree with you. You have a fairly JJP heavy lineup. I really want to like a JJP's games, but they seem to always fall short. I owned DILE for several years and liked it a lot...didn't agree with the early pummeling it received on Pinside. Nevertheless, it eventually annoyed me and was unable to compete with other games in my collection so it had to leave (and make room for Rick and Morty IIRC).

I really could care less about price, but it's a very normal reaction to compare price, features and fun factor. Recently picked up a NIB GZ Premium for 9k which is 3k less than TS4 (and for my taste, shoots 10x better).

It's not just price. I don't think anyone would have balked at 15K GNR CE.

It's the combination of price, value (what you get for the price), longevity, and the market reaction.

The price matters to me…the fact is I can get a loaded cactus canyon or a stern premium for about 9K. There is absolutely zero compelling argument to make to justify TS4 being 33 percent more. I believe a games value should factor into how it’s viewed/ranked. With that being said, I would still probably pay the price if there was a killer toy instead of the iPad. That iPad screen just absolutely kills it for me. It’s a double whammy of price and a complete lack of toys.

Just to get this straight do you think UM is a better game then TS4?
Not factoring in price(ridiculously overpriced) for sure!

I own a ts4 le and agree with this. It’s very fun. If you think it’s too expensive, don’t buy it.

I could have bought TS4 but it was such a high price comparison to a Stern premium or CC remake so I did just that ordered a CC remake. After seeing the price of TS4 and playing it, just made CC remake seem like a deal.

TS4 does not exist in a vacuum, it has to compete with JP, CC remake, Godzilla, the next Stern pin etc. ****all costing thousands less****

It’d be one thing if all pins were $12-$15K you could say that’s what they cost. But when everything else is $6K, $9K, $11K (Stern LE) then you see TS4 as several thousand extra it just doesn’t add up unless you are really dedicated to TS4 as a theme.

I think you just found JJP's new slogan!!!

borat.gif

Yeah - I didn’t mean to be snarky, but jjp is in business to make money, so if the market responds by not buying, that’s what will affect their price. I think they put significantly more into their machines than most manufacturers, so I don’t think their price is so out of line.