Well I am not sure who Greg is on this forum. I was responding to ZMeny's posts as I figured he was Zach.

Also it is funny because (like a few others stated) I too enjoyed playing Halloween more than I did TS4, as they had both at the location I was at.

I’m sure Charley is happy to hear that everybody is digging Halloween over Toy Story He’s probaly thinking damn it I should’ve ask for more money?

Not Charley.

I'm sure he's pleased to hear spooky done good with Halloween.

LTG : )

Just being sarcastic Lloyd.
Hope your well! Thanks

If you don't believe me there is a thread on pinside about it. Chromecandy.com did the testing. Twenty84 is his pinside name.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-remakes-dont-play-like-originals#post-3993478

Wow...thanks for the link, it confirms why I never liked the remakes. After owning a HEP AFM for many years, I decided to pickup ARMrLE when it first came out. Couldn't believe how awful it was...looked great, played awful (when compared with the original). It wasn't just the flipper delay analyzed in the link you forwarded, it was many other things that were just off. Not saying the remakes are a total loss, but if you can own a B/W original, they are what you want.

Wasn’t this debunked later?

Dialed In and Wonka are Two of his best!

Yes

Two out of three ain’t bad..

A .05ms - 4.5ms delay flipper delay versus the original? That's an awesome test no doubt but also seems extremely minimal. I'll happily take updated hardware, RGB lighting, a larger display, and everything being new over an original.

Good comparison.

Screenshot 2022-08-08 091041 (resized).jpg

As an avg player, I actually like that the R&M modes are randomized and I get to see everything.
It's still my most played pin. Also as an avg player, starting to think I would actually really enjoy TS4

It's as valid and worthwhile as anyone else's opinion including yours on this subject
I mean, most of the youtube reviewers are getting product for free, how worthwhile is any review?

Ill trade you a mint collector quality original MM for a royal remake.

As has been mentioned, the original testing was flawed. There is no delay vs the original. See the Edits in the very first post of the thread.:

EDIT: I repeated the measurements on the AFM using a method CGC_DougS suggested. Using this method I found the AFM also has a variable delay of 0.5 to 4.5 ms. I'm not not sure why in these original tracings it looks like there is no delay on the AFM. The coil draws enough power to create an artifact in the opto board signal which creates an artifact synchronous with the coil firing. It may also have been a grounding problem.

I'm an average player and don't really enjoy it much. I don't dislike it because it's too easy (it's not for me), I dislike it because none of shots feel very satisfying or fun. Most of the shots are boring, aside from the jump ramp, the sound and music is pretty bad, and the focus on carnival games is a miss theme-wise for me.

So yeah, I'm not a fan JJP's TS4, and difficulty ain't one of the reasons.

I don't as I had a HEP restored MM and a new MMRLE sitting right next to each other and they both played basically the same. Are there subtle differences? yea probably like every game, but nothing that really stood out

No - the premise that 'all opinions are valid and worthwhile' is a fallacy. Everyone is free to an opinion, that doesn't mean they are all equal or as worthy. If you find a homeless person who has never played pinball, isn't the market to pay to play or buy a pinball machine - their impressions and takeaways can be valid from their perspective, but that doesn't mean they will be accurate or even have any applicability to the actual market for the product.

Just like if you take a person who has played pinball for a few months, and ask them to rank a game against all the other products in the market. Sure you can get their opinion on the matter, and they are free to it, but it doesn't make it as useful to a wider audience as maybe someone with more experience and perspective who can objectively evaluate something from more than their singular need. The 'new guys' opinion is valid from their perspective -- that doesn't make it just as useful to others as 'anyone elses'.

It's why you poll the general public to measure perspectives - but you don't use random people to analyze the information.

Everyone can play a game and say "I loved it" or "I hated it" -- but not everyone can look at a game and analyze why some like it more than others, or what will sustain or not, or be able to reliably predict what will appeal or not to people. See Kaneda drooling over Wonka and telling people it's the greatest magic ever created... Very well could have been his perfectly valid opinion from his experience visiting JJP - But doesn't mean his conclusions were that good. Because he was incapable of really evaluating the various dimensions of the product. While he would tell you he's god's gift to marketing and business - he sucks at interpreting the pinball business and product.

TLDR - 'valid opinions' are not the same as 'worthwhile reviews'

You are correct, as your opinion proves that

Great post. It's unfortunate that in the world of social media, so few understand this common sense observation.

when it comes to people's opinions...

there are those who HAVE to be right all the time, and then there are those who HAPPEN to be right most of the time.

Who claims that a premise exists that “all opinions are worthwhile and valid”.? Unless you are mindless idiot. That’s a ridiculous statement.

Furthermore, there are many “very stupid smart people”. Figure that one out.

Zero common sense and social skills combined with a complete lack of self awareness.

We filter other folks opinions, then apply our own common sense, experience and overall judgment to make decisions.

If you can’t do that then you are lost anyhow. Some people a lot more than others. They need to be told what to do on life.

In my hobbies I prefer to be entertained and when I need help I go to the experts.

You can have two extremely smart people, looking at the same set of facts and data, and come to two polar opposite conclusions.

Happens all day every in the stock market.

It’s rarely black and white like some try and make it out to be.

e! Hopefully you find a shit ton, cause

And some are just right, always. Its a hard roe to hoe.

Your welcome!

Y’know if JJP announced a “Special Edition” run of POTC for $15k, I would have coughed up the cash. But this TS4 (especially after seeing it and playing it) made me cancel the CE I had on order.

I find it amazing what this thread has been evolving to. It’s kind of become about everything else besides TS4 because close to a thousand Pinsiders were out from the beginning and still out. I almost started a thread called ‘What games have you purchased instead since the release of TS4”? But just felt it might’ve been a little insensitive. What to do you think? Should I still start it? Not bashing the game but just believe as we know now that JJP swung for the fences with the price point and struck out regardless if the game is good or not and was crazy to price it more as a follow up to GNR. It might be interesting as it seems many picked up some good finds after realizing they didn’t want to spend $15k on this game.

Well, I bought CCrLE that took the slot that was earmarked for TS. I would have made room for both if not for TS4. Then after the TS4 reveal I bought an AFMr (my first non-NIB game in 7 years) to make sure I’d never have room for TS4

Nice choice, can’t go wrong with those two! Congrats. Similarly I woke up on TS reveal day ready to pull the trigger and rubbed my eyes a couple times, grabbed my glasses, saw the price and said ah heck nah but not because of the game so much, but because of the attitude in the video of seemingly not caring about sales from the community, wanting new sales from outside, and claiming that a $15k machine would be great to introduce more kids to pinball? The next day I inquired about a Rush premium, found one and paid it in full. I then called the distributor I had my Godzilla premium on pre-order with since last year and it happened that there was a one off someone was not able to follow through on during the recent run! Paid that in full & it’s coming Tuesday.

I'll probably get down voted to hell for saying this, but I'm personally more excited about my TS4 than CCr.

That is not to say that I think TS4 is a better game, I just find it hard to stay excited for my CCr when I honestly question whether I'll even get mine in 2023. It is also the Lyman code I'm most excited for. Knowing he was doing code on it was one of the main reasons I put in an order, but who knows when that will come into existence too.

I'm pretty sure JJP is getting close to doubling the number of TS4s when compared to CCrs in about half the time. At that rate, and with the low demand, I expect I'll have my TS4 in 3 to 6 months.

I put an order for CC SE + topper. After seeing and playing both games it’s clear I’m getting a lot more for the money with CC.

It’s not all about money I’d buy CC over TS4 if they were the same price, but look at the lowest price available $8k vs $12K everyone can see CC is the better priced game.

As I say it’s not about money with me because I like the old school (nearly 30 years old) gameplay at least for a change of pace from my more modern games. I own AFM LE it’s super fun and CC has that fun campy vibe. I’d have gotten an LE but think they’re all sold out by now. But funny enough I’ve seen one LE spot for sale at the same price as TS4 LE ($12K).

I bought a DP premium and GZ premium.. easy decisions.. as easy as NOT buying TS4 after I played it.

No downvotes, its just what u like. And having to wait sucks. Its a shame that you can snag TS4 now at less than you will probably pay in 3-6 months, but UM and HWN early adopters have been there as well. Even worse. Its also bad timing for JJP. They drop TS4 with a high price and try to meet these crazy expectations right when the economy is Fd up and Stern is catching up and have stock available. (GZ, DP, JP, Rush, Mando, etc.) Perfect storm for epic failure on a new release like this. If TS4 LE was 9k like CCr this would be a great conversation. We should have seen this price point coming considering what they did with GnR during that run and then the Wonka run at 11k. Can't bring out your new pin with the same price point as your previous 2, especially if you are still trying to sell the last two.

Why would you get downvotes for this? I think this is just human nature. People generally don’t want to wait.

And the growth of the hobby coupled with production challenges just makes it worse. JJP certainly isn’t producing games 4x faster than CGC if it would take 3-6 months to fulfill “low demand” but today’s low demand is still higher than what it was even a few years ago.

Manufacturers can only produce so many so fast - expanding capacity is not a trivial undertaking and I expect that when supply constraints ease in a few years (yes, it will take that long) that still won’t close the demand gap so waiting for games isn’t going away any time soon.

I just ordered CC SE plus topper but no idea when it’s shipping. I actually hope it’s later because of all the other pins I bought this year. I’d love to get a CC LE if it shipping later don’t mint that.

It's really not a bad game at all - my concerns are about difficulty/longevity for the price.
I would get one of the discounted LEs and just play that if I could.

I still have a CE on order - not gonna burn my distro by walking away - but it's not a great feeling knowing I've overpaid.

I was there with Ultraman. Just decided never again and committed to Stern. Feel I should’ve went with Godzilla from the beginning but sort a fell for getting behind a smaller company, campy vibe. After I put down the hefty down payment, the game wasn’t produced the entire last half of the year and very far into this one and it wasn’t refundable, meanwhile I could’ve been playing a Godzilla LE for most of that time. CGC seems alright and I’ve always liked JJP, have purchased games like WOZ, GNR, still have my Wonka CE but hoping if it’s some sort of restructured company now over there that they realize they made a mistake by thinking value, price point & Pinsider opinions don’t matter and can do some good things again.

You're in a really tough spot .... really hard to commit to a $15K purchase when u know the game will probably depreciate faster than a new car Especially when u can pick up a discounted LE

I really think people are overplaying it's difficulty.

I was at a freeplay arcade this weekend which has one. I personally found games like Rush to be so much easier. I don't know much about the rules in that game and I still had an 800mil+ game. That game felt painfully easy.

Playing 5 or so TS4 games, I was struggling to even get even half of the scenes completed and never made it to the wizard mode.

The GC of that game is held by the ranked 5 player in Michigan and if I remember correctly it was only around 4 million. So I doubt they got to the wizard mode.

Sure, the ramp shots and the carnival modes are very easy. However, those slings and outlanes are monsters and you need to shoot plenty of other less safe shots to complete all those scenes.

It's really only too easy if you're in the top 1% of players. Not trying to be harsh, but I doubt your in that camp. If you were, your line up would have more competitive games, like Elwins and less JJPs.

Also, you can always make a game more difficult if it's too easy by adjusting the rules, increasing the outlanes and removing post rubbers.

Those are all excellent points, and I am absolutely not a strong player. Only gotten the 4th golden ticket on Wonka once

Hopefully it will work out in the end. Like I said I don't think it's a bad game at all, just a value question over time for me.

Retailers are now selling TS4 for a $1k discount? Is this the first time a NIB JJP has been advertised for significantly below retail?

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1299-maine-home-recreation/07035-toy-story-4-le-nib

Really? Wow, that is the exact opposite of what I saw. I was waiting to play TS4 at Ayce Gogi while playing a machine near it (R & M) and some little kid had about a twenty minute game on TS4. The kid wasn't bad, but it was like the game was playing itself. I got to see all the modes out of the corner of my eye, as long as he flipped the ball anywhere it gave him a big burst of lights and sounds non-stop. I could see how it skews to a younger crowd, definitely. R & M took about five bucks off me in the meantime, it's such a killer. RUSH and EHoH were also kicking my ass. But I got some love on JP, so it might have just been opposite day in pinballland.

While I think resale values will continue to go down, this is probably a one off for NIB LE. I don’t see them listed as an authorized dealer on JJPs website (maybe it’s just not up to date). I think the CEs will be the best option to get NIB at a discount because of non refundable deposits…will be interesting to see if market gets flooded with spots as we get closer to ship date. I haven’t noticed any of the existing listings actually sell at 1k off.

Is nice seeing people buying this pin. Not my cup of tea but some people will love it.

Whats the dealer cost on these games? My guess is many will sell at their cost just to get it off their books. Would the distributors know the MSRP before committing to buying CE's and LE's ? If not they got screwed

Dealer margin should be at least $1k and I think more on TS4.

When I saw this ad the first thing I thought of is the dealer just wanted to get out.

I’m in the same boat. Paid a $2500 deposit on a CE through my distributor whom I’d rather not mention. After a phone call to them last week, I was VERY clear that I will follow through with my commitment on a CE but was personally questioning my decision to buy a TS. Unfortunately for me, my wife, after playing one locally, was like an excited little 12 year old girl the whole time she was playing it! She loves the theme, the game play and call outs. Not gonna lie, we were kind of hoping neither of us were going to like it, but WE did. Anyway, back to my distributor, they were allocated almost 30 CE’s, which I’m being told as of last week, nearly a month after they required deposits be sent, they only had two people cancel. That being said, they also told me if my wife and I decided we wanted an LE instead, they would just slide our deposit over to an LE. They want us to be happy with our purchase and said they’d have no problem finding a home for the CE. We’ve got some time to decide. We’ll be playing the local machine a lot more in the next month or so to help us decide.

If you both love it and have been waiting this long you may as well hang in there and get a CE.

Well that's better than I would have expected based on Pinside sentiment. Good news.

I wonder what percentage of the pinball world is occupied by Pinside?

Hang in there. Pinside sentiment isn't the world. Then again, you'll think I am crazy. Waiting for TS4 CE and just took delivery of your favorite game RM.