If that ends up being true I’m gonna love it then. GNR is awesome!

Generally speaking people who hate on GNR don't understand how to play it.

You're be surprised how many people don't even realize the revolver dots for making band member shots towards band frenzy.

Have we really reached that point of absurdity where we care so much about what people think of the machines we own that people are posting fake collections.

The problem with Toy Story having a lack of toys is that it is.. well... *Toy* Story.

Champion Pub is a pretty bad example - it is just a weird change of pace game. CP has terrible flow - but that is kinda the point. It is designed to be chaotic... like boxing... and yes... it's 2/3 the price of TS4.

I am still interested in a TS4 - I just need to play it to decide. If it was $2500 less it would probably be a no brainer. However, it is pretty hard to drop $12k on an average game (and I have been waiting for a Toy Story game for years). I honestly thought that I would be in for a CE - but I decide to hit the brakes.

What happen to be kind and treat people how you would like to be treated?
You can disagree with their review but the vitriol is just not necessary

pasted_image (resized).png

I think this all is more a disagreement on what is considered a toy.

In my eyes with TS4 the category of toys and innovation encompasses:
-the jump ramp
-the individual controlled Benson posts (especially since they're used to good effect predicting and blocking your shots in the gabby gabby mode)
-the location sensing spinner
-the Gabby Gabby bash toy mech
-the lighting (I consider this innovative, GNR is the only game with better lighting)
-the tablet
-and other small things like the camera (innovative).

I define a toy as a new or rarely used interactive feature to the game that is not particularly common to other games. Something that is found in around 5% or less of games.

Whereas features like pops, kickbacks, diverters, spinners, saucers, ramps, drop targets, targets, etc... are all fairly standard and found on most games.

By my definition of toy, TS4 does have a lot. I will say, none of them are particularly great by themselves, but together a 'B' rating seems fair to me.

Whereas a game like Led Zepplin Pro would be at a F in that category. Which is still a great game.

How would you define a toy?

The game itself is a toy. Id rather it be listed as Mechs and Innovation or something like that

As you accurately point out this is all subjective, but for me while I enjoy playing the game on location TS4 does fall short with Toys+Innovation. Most of the "toys" in this game, to me, feel pretty standard and don't pull me into the game. That's all I care about. Take Godzilla for example....collapsing the skyscraper, the bridge ramp, the Mechagodzilla. These are all things that draw me into both the theme and the gameplay. That's what I'm missing in TS4. Again just my opinion but I think they handcuffed themselves by going so hard with the carnival theme. I do enjoy the game but I think more people would be adding these to their collections if it had the Toy Story equivalent of a collapsing building or Mechagodzilla. I'm not saying every pinball machine must have these things, but for me TS4 would be a much better game if it did. The theme offers up so many possibilities.

Which is interesting, because I personally don't like the collapsing skyscraper. To me, it slows down the game too much and doesn't add anything to the gameplay. It's cool to see once, but gets annoying by the 5th time. Also, the diverter can really mess up some modes like Gigan. The mech itself just feels like a less cool Doctor Who mech.

That being said, the Mecha-Godzilla, bridge collapse, and magna grab toys are all great. The game itself is wonderful.

To me, it almost sounds like you pair toys with theme integration. IMO, Lawlor is the worst at theme integration at JJP. I think all his games play the best, but they certainly don't bring you into the world as well as Pirates or WOZ did.

Well it's kind of hard not to.

If pinball people “don’t understand how to play” a game - that’s on the game, not the player.

Zack can you help me understand how the Toys in TS4 are rated so high?

Number 1,2, and three toys and what they individually get for a grade?

Maybe I am looking at this wrong.

Thanks

John

I really like Zach and Greg but shots and layout: A??????

With the huge tablet taking up so much real estate on the playfield and the NGG clone/ Duke Kaboom shot?

Agreed, but I knew how to play the game and really didn't like it! And I know plenty of pinball sophisticates that feel the same way. It's really BS when people who like a game have to somehow belittle people that don't like the game.

Completely disagree with that price convo. Jersey Jack is not Rolex….they do not have a reputation that set them apart from other pinball makers and their LEs are not difficult to obtain. Rolex’s market is driven by demand, reputation and low supply. Jersey Jack completely misread their reputation in the community and the market with their crazy price increase. They doubles down by increasing supply.

Yup. The equivalent to what JJP did would be Rolex coming out with a scaled back watch (less features, no gold, whatever) and then charging more then ever versus previous more feature packed watches.

All good points but I don't want to veer too far off your original thought about toys which I think was a great thing to bring up. My point about the skyscraper was not do you like it or find it annoying, my point was that, in my opinion, it feels new and innovative, it's integrated nicely into the code and it's something you would see in a Godzilla movie. I pair toys equally with theme and gameplay integration. For me personally while the TS4 toys are cool and I do enjoy the game I don't find any of them super innovative or connected to Toy Story. The Gabby bash toy is the closest thing, having her pop up is cool, the Caboom ramp is cool too but I would have loved more of that. I don't mind the iPad but I do believe if some kind of interactive Toy Story toy/mech was up there we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

I hear you on Lawlor but I have to say I love Wonka. The movie is one of my favorites of all time so I was sad when I saw so many people bashing the game, but then I got a chance to play it. I loved it and eventually bought one. IMO Pat and team did a great job integrating the theme and creating an innovative playfield that felt fresh to me and felt like Wonka. I'm not saying it's perfect but what's on the playfield pulls me into the game and into the theme. This probably contributed to my reaction to TS4 because it's a very similar scenario.....people bashing the game, I was still super excited to play it because I love Toy Story, finally got to play and did enjoy it (still do) but didn't love it enough to order one.

I know this is not a price discussion but I will say if the price was much lower I would strongly consider ordering one because it's a very fun game.

I think that guys like Zaphx and Iceman are looking at these games differently than most of us. How many of you guys drive Porsches or give pinball machines away to their kids?

When your disposable income is a lot more than what these pinball machines cost, then of course they are great. They are all great. Toy Story is also a good game, but when you think like someone that has to choose which game to buy, then TS4 is just not worth the price. Lots of pinball games shoot great and are a lot of fun, but most are in another price range when new. Sadly there are still people that buy these overpriced machines. And I say sadly because when they do, nothing will change and the pinball machines will get worse and more expensive at the same time. Talk with your wallet, even when the wallet is very full.

Regarding SDTM, I can only say that I was a huge follower of both Zach and Greg in the beginning when they started, but soon after Zach took over Flip'n'out that was over. The change was very dramatic and I think they themself do not realise this and think they are really being unbiased. But when you logically think about this, that is not possible because for Zach it is his living and if I would be Greg I would also not do anything to harm the livelyhood of my friend.

But Zach was always honest about what he does and I hear nothing but great things about how he treats his clients.

Don't make assumptions - the price is a real issue for me as well.

I do believe that Derek. I have been following you a lot and we share a lot of similarities in pinball and in EV's and spelling I could afford TS but I choose not to and do not tell people how great the game is as I know there are far better recent and future games. JJP started out great but now they seem to be just a money grab company like most companies in all other industries.

I liked the passion of the new pinball companies, but outside of Haggis I do not really see that anymore and that is a shame.

edit: I forgot about Multimorphic when writing the above. They seem to be really passionate also.

Toys and features should be a C

Theme C+ for me, because it’s the worst TS movie, do you like Forkey more than Zurg?

How cool would it have been to have Zurg rise up from the PF like the Iron Monger bash toy?

They could have done some cool code like pick a character T-Rex, Mr Potato Head, Buzz etc and had different starting modes or scoring like SW or Potc has.

7087B017-4DE0-4405-9B9E-891A22C6373F (resized).jpeg

I stereotypically drive a Porsche (besides a Tesla and BMW convertible) own my house in the city (Dallas) outright, broad investments, have no kids and here is a snapshot of my 100% disposable high liquidity account and I still wouldn’t consider this weirdly overpriced TS4. Just because I could buy one without thinking about money doesn’t mean I would.
13C6326F-4FC1-41D2-8E13-9F6A3D8AA65A (resized).jpeg

I still have a long ways to go on rules. I find myself just having fun playing all the different song modes for the light shows, concert footage and rocking out.

Different than Wonka for me. Trying to learn that game and the more you do figure it out the better it is as you know Derek.

This is a good assessment of the SDTM situation. I like Zach and Greg and I enjoy their videos, but I watch them knowing that Zach literally wants to sell this game to me. I would never come on here and bash him for not rating this or any other game lower. It's on me to play and decide if I want to buy something. Zach and Greg offer some of the best game breakdowns you can find on youtube and I appreciate that. I'm not going to SDTM to decide if I want to buy TS4, I just love pinball and appreciate their content.

Now having said that I was actually very surprised by the whole Rolex/Gucci rant. To me that argument falls completely flat and the whole thing felt really weird. I honestly don't think Greg was explicitly trying to be a salesman, it seemed genuine and in the moment, but I suspect with a bit more thought even he would agree it's not the best argument in this situation. That part bothered me and I hope this is not the start of a trend of them trying to defend price jumps.

I did not mean that everyone that has enough means that likes the game will also buy it, I meant to say that when your income is high then it is more easy to like a game, no matter the cost. And you are doing exactly the same thing as I am doing, namely not buying the game. I was really looking forward to Toy Story but for me the machine is just not justifying the price.

The funny thing is Rolex’s actually have relatively cheap MSRP compared to some other luxury brands like Patek, AP and RM. They are obviously not inexpensive but they represent somewhat of a value if you are able to get them at retail. Jersey Jack tried to blow the roof of pricing with zero compelling sales pitch to do so. I get they were trying to take some of the profits flippers were making, but they clearly misfired and misunderstood supply and demand by pumping out way more numbers. I am glad their anti-consumer price gauging backfired. I am sure stern and CGC are taking notice on what the limits are.

Completely false and misguided. Rich, successful people are often tough critics. This idea that rich folk think everything is great is silly...really.

You know this thread has run it's course when pinsiders start posting their bank account balances.

I agree and that is not what I said. Please read again.

Ha yeah exactly. I have a friend who's a watch nut, I remember him showing me his new $250k Patek Philippe. I think my response was "uh wow I didn't realize you could spend $250k on one watch."

Totally agree with you on JJP. What made it even worse was watching interviews with Jack where he responds to questions about the price hike with "this game will create memories, can you really put a price on that?" That's one of the most disingenuous arguments I've heard in a long time.

I agree that they wanted to take the flippers profit but they misunderstood that in doing so they ended up squashing all FOMO and any potential for owners to break even. I fully expect these to change hands under $10K, where they’re still more cost than CGC and Stern premiums.

Also, I understand they went big on the price but they should have backed it up with a tour de force of best rules and toys. If it had been like TBL or Potc with toys and BM66 on rules most likely it would have been better received. But they get lots of so-so reviews saying it’s fine but… nothing stands out except it’s price.

If they want a basic game, charge like $8-9-10K fine.

They will have to make adjustments in the future.I agree that they overshot.For $15000 it would need to be Twilight Zone with Toy Story 1,2 and 3 theme!

Yeah; that was....interesting. First time I've ever seen that on Pinside.

Usually it's people doing the whole "my collection is better than your collection" boasting.

Although I may disagree with his review of TS4, I can 100% attest to the fact that Flip N Out is the best experience I've ever had with a distro and Zach and Nicole are amazing. Good, honest people.

Damn dude it seems like your taking this personally? Is it because it’s a disappointment from what you were hoping for?

Bwhaha

Did this post really just happen?
Are you trying to flex by showing us your savings balance
You do realize, nobody gives 2 fcks nor is anybody impressed
wow ...... just wow - you seriously have some issues you may want to work out.

I didn't read anything aboot breed of dog or TV...

Fwiw, lightyear was Pixar’s biggest flop to date. I’ll let you draw the parallels.

Spooky?? American Pinball??

We let someone like that become a US citizen. What a Putz

Lol. He’s flexing with his tiny dick.

But yeah. Not sure who he really is but def an alter ID

Rare Meathead has some serious issues. Lol

If he wasn’t such a ….. trying to bully others I wouldn’t even comment

Spooky, also not anymore really when asking a non-refundable deposit without really showing the games first and AP, well they do not have rosh anymore so that is also going downhill, just look at their last game.

The category is Toys & Innovation. For me, a C+ isn’t a good rating. It’s not horrible. It’s not bad. It’s mixed.

When I compare this game’s mechs and innovation to other games, I come up with a C+. It’s the lowest grade I’ve given to a JJP game in this category.

I really like the jump ramp. I’m not aware of many games if any with that mech. And mechs are great and all, but this is a mech that feels great. It doesn’t get old for me.

The lighting of this game outperforms nearly that of any pinball machine ever made. So regardless, I’ve gotta give credit where it’s due.

Other things I like include dedicated animation on a second LCD screen. Plus, while I could leave it, the large playfield lcd screen is an industry first I believe (minus p3 playfield), and they coded a virtual pinball machine into it (with working pop bumpers feedback). Again, not my cup of tea, but as I try to be as fair as I can, it’s still innovative. Physical ball lock, mechanical kickback, incredible rgb integration, spinning wheel, pop up troll, opto spinners, large 27” display, another physical ball stop, yeah it certainly has enough to clear at least a C+ for me personally. But again, this is merely my analysis.

No need to adjust it Zach.

Don’t let the dummies wear you down