The word is "voila."

I think "wala" is where you drop a pinball down the front of your pants on a drunken bet.

Really like my GZLE Ho! not letting it go.

GNR doesn’t have the nerd factor going for it. As far as being “weighed”, it’s coming in at #14. Doesn’t need to get any better.

AC/DC at #21 must really suck and suffer from “wanting”. Lol

Not that any of it matters with rankings, it doesn’t. Only my rankings matter. And yours for what you like.

You can go back to shitting on TS4 now

I will have to say GZ theme did nothing for me... the various B/W scenes with cheesy old school fighting scenes made me laugh often.
The shots, layout, and use of the tech was so FRESH! That alone made me come back to the pin to play it even not liking the theme.

That will be the same for me with TS4. Ended up not liking its theme execution, but the game is fun to play. I'll never beat it as I only intend to play it on location.

Same here. Agree with that. Both themes just ok.

Theme #1 for me. As good as Jurassic Park is, another Elwin masterpiece. Won’t match up to pins like Elvira, Alien and STH for me

Lol

You should just buy an Ultraman!
Oh wait you did ooops

That's funny -wait I was one of those who bought a TS4( laughing at myself).

I'm a huge music pin fan, but just couldn't fall in love with GNR (owned one for ~6 months). For me, Rush is so much more fun to play. No doubt GNR is sexier, but the rules, scoring and shot choreography (i.e. how a shot feels) are just sad. Album modes and Slash solo pathetic. Sure, there is stuff to like about it, but much more stuff to be disappointed in. Ambitious effort that just falls short of greatness. In theory, this game could be fixed with a major software revision.

Yep.

You are one of the few vocal critics of the game that actually owned it. Sometimes it just doesn’t click. That’s why Iron Maiden left.

I could care less about the rules and scoring like you have for this game. Although eskaybee has tried to point out where you are incorrect from that standpoint.

He’s a player of GNR, I’m just looking for fun factor and it’s one of the best out there.

Scoring? Plenty of other pins for that. TWD, BM66, Elvira, STH, JP are some of my favorites.

Shot choreography? It has a pretty good layout.

You are playing a rock concert with an awesome light show, sound with pin woofers and band footage and integration to the pin.

Rush is really good too. Just not the same experience and I have too many Stern pins as it is that feel similar.

It’s pretty obvious whoever is in charge of determining the price of this machine has been watching pinside marketplace. If people will pay $12,000 for a used machine that was only $9,500 new then why not just charge the $12,000 off the bat and pocket all that money for themselves.

That theory would work better if the “LE” was actually limited. Having a maximum of 4,000-5,000+ “Limited Editions” is ridiculous and takes away from its whole meaning. I love JJP machines don’t get me wrong, I’ve owned a few and still own three. All the JJP Pat Lawlors kind of end up being too similar in their game play to justify having more than one. You could pick up a Dialed In LE for thousands less and have just as much fun.

I’m going to roll the dice and try some other manufacturers. Pinball Brothers and Dutch Pinball….can’t be any less bang for my buck compared to a JJP these days.

Don't forget American Pinball. Lots of bang for the buck there.

True but I just sold my Hot Wheels to make room for Alien, Big Lebowski, Cactus Canyon. CGC has put themselves next to JJP at the top as far as build quality goes. Maybe PB or Dutch will surpass either of those but haven’t gotten my hands on either yet. Key word is yet.

Ouch, that's pretty harsh on CGC. I don't think that's warranted at all. CGC have owned their issues, JJP never did, well if you count initially sending out washers for your playfield, then radio silence.

Opps posted in the wrong thread meant for it to be here

So starting to see CE buyers taking a loss on their deposits. How low will we go?

Have a Halloween coming so I feel the pain, but I loved that game over TS4 so I do have that going for me

At what point does panic set in when the margin call is made for payment in full?

Can people dispute a down payment on a TS game if a TS4 is what is sold? How can one get out of a deposit? I am not looking to get out of mine on my loser, just curious?

Just look at CCR for $8K. That’s just coo-coo to think that TS4 would cost $4-7K more when you are obviously getting so much more for less money with CCR.

I am vocal (no argument, but I've met a lot of other players/collectors that feel exactly the same way. When I was selling it, I had several guys come over (with nice collections), that just couldn't pull the trigger on buying it because they didn't vibe with the gameplay. Despite it's wow factor (and popularity), I think it's pretty polarizing amongst players. But I totally agree that it's an "experience" pin, and I'm sure it would be popular at parties. Since I don't throw many pinball parties, my collection is pretty focused on me.

Btw...I think you might be confused about what I mean by "Shot Choreography". First of all, I agree with you on the layout...I actually liked many of the shots. My problem is with the sound (and shaker) effects when a shot is made. On Rush, when you hit the time machine, the audio/shaker give you this awesome feedback that make hitting the shot really satisfying. For some reason, JJP games in general don't click with me in terms of the shot/audio/shaker harmony. Had DILE for several years, but decided to sell it largely due to "meh" audio. I just think the team at Stern is firing on more cylinders than the JJP team...and TS4 (the topic of this thread) couldn't be a better example.

All they have to do is stop making TS4, and overnight everyone will sell a child to get one. Worked for pirates.

Except in this case they can actually put it back on the line and reap the rewards, since it costs less to make and sells for thousands more.

CGC and American Pinball are probably at the top for consistent build quality. Stern gets knocked down a notch for their history of penny pinching - but in general their games are pretty consistently playable new. PB and Dutch both are no where near this level. Engineering is not great and builds are often inconsistent. Both make up for it with hands-on service - but the product is not that refined in terms of build, reliability, serviceability, and QA. JJP is floating in there around Stern's level... with consistency being the bigger swing I think.

No way. Pirates popularity was because it's actually a really ambitious game with a lot of mechanical/kinetic fun!

But it was a sales dud until everyone thought they could no longer get one. FOMO!

I agree with that. Stern is def firing on all cylinders with the exception of a few. I have a lot of them like you do.

And while I can’t really comment on TS4 other than what I’ve seen on the streams, it looks like fun and most of the criticism is around “pricing”.

I think everybody would agree with that. It’s tough to compare with GNR, Wonka for that matter, and they raised price.

And some people don’t vibe with that game, think it’s boring and soul less. And a few friends that think it’s the best ever.

I see this repeated often, but the reason Pirates sold poorly at first was because pre-orders had the rug pulled out from under them with the triple spinning disc and moving chest being removed. The game was also delayed significantly and a lot of people felt burned and cancelled their orders because that was their only recourse. Many took a wait and see approach and that did not pay off. Almost the entire pinball community was singing the games praises before that mess. It's not like people weren't buying just because the game sucked or something.

I didn't say WHY people weren't buying. You're exactly right; it's because JJP pulled two major mechs that everyone already had their heart set on. My operator friend cancelled his order for that exact reason. So I guess we agree, is that possible here?

If you pull two mechs from TS4 there won’t be any left …

Ha! I suppose we do agree then. It's just that without context and when compairing POTC to TS4, it sounds like you're saying sales were poor for the same reasons. Though you are right that if JJP cut production of TS4 short, FOMO would no doubt drive up values.

Agreed. Just to be clear, I only have a handful of games on JJP Pirates. It's hard not to be struck by all the stuff. The rocking upper PF is pretty wild. I've never pursued it...the license doesn't do much for me. Owned Stern's Pirates for a couple years IIRC...pretty cool game. The rocking ship was out of character for Stern at the time...was nice to see Nordman get a shot at designing a Stern game (believe it was his first for Stern).

Maybe, but I think the pricing belly aches are born out of the lackluster offering in general (which has been well covered on Pinside). If TS4 was outfitted more like WH20, very few would be upset. Considering WH20 is over 3 decades old, that's kind of pathetic.

But isn't that upper PF the only stuff? I played the JJPOTC prototype plenty, and don't enjoy the game with or without all the mechs, so I don't have a horse in the race, but I can see why people felt shortchanged or misled.

It's similar to GnR in that aside from the upper PF, it's a pretty basic game, mechanically. Big difference is people knew what they were missing.

I'm committed to the CE, but if I wasn't I'd be all over the discount barely-touched LEs on the marketplace.

Next time I will probably get the LE.

And I’ve got a beautiful restored WH20. That game today with updated lighting, sound (which is not good) and LCD would crush it.

Look at the success CGC is having with Cactus.

That could be an epic CGC topper!

If that was an original Pirates CE you have Derek then I think you made out quite well!

Well you know the CE is gonna be gorgeous

I'm the second owner but the original owner was a friend. I helped unbox and debug it.

So yeah I bought that one well.

IM is a top game in every regard. Dougy ol buddy, you never stop bashing Stern slyly/sideways do you… We get it, you’re a top cheerleader for JJP fanboy club and have epic hate for Stern. It’s a wonder you’ve not sold your remaining Stern machines. Why not just keep one, since their all similar/same, according to you??? Lol!!!

I had an IMLE for a while, and thought it was fun, but the music sucked so I sold it....I mean I know u don't own any games but why can't u like them all? JJP, Stern, CGC, BW, Spooky.....they all make fun games, and they are all guilty of making games that weren't so good (at least to me)....the only complaint I really have about JJP TS4 is the price....if JJP didn't price gouge people wouldn't be bashing the title so much.

As a person with an open mind and purchased from many companies, including JJP, I see your point. Price is a feature and the very most important feature on a nonessential toy. It also greatly helps, when the PF is not barren like TS4…just sayin.

I remember...you picked up the awesome Mike Dallas restoration! I owned his TOTAN restoration and I almost purchased his WH20 restoration. Decided against it, because I already had beauty. My loss was your gain...great example, btw! Mike does really awesome work.

Even without modernization, it's still one of the best games ever made. The wizard mode is awesome.

Eh? iceman44 is an equal opportunity fanboy.

He just buys them all.

Not so, As a business you can depreciate the machine and there is residual value when sold

I did... and now I'm trading it for HWN. We like the HWN theme better. Your point is?

You'll be super happy with your TS4 CE... and even though you dropped over $16k for it without playing it, no worries.. It is just like your beloved GnR, except they went to a carnival. Lots of lights, characters you won't recognize, no mechs, and overpriced.

You can go back the shitting on everyone that doesn't agree with you now.

He'll start describing the game as an "experience".

lol. The quotes definitely highlight the absurdity of rationalizing a pinball with cryptic rules and inane scoring. The "experience" makes up for all that stuff

It's really crazy that he actually rationalizes enjoying the hobby. What a horrible life it must be.

How dare people enjoy things

A lot of States have laws written that all deposits are refundable unless it is something specifically ordered and not easily resold.

Which states are in "a lot?"

I enjoy Toy Story 1-3