I played it again today at Cidercade. It is a much better game than the initial disappointment suggested in my opinion. It’s fun and attractive.

I enjoyed it much, much more than GnR (which always keeps serving about 5000 balls and the game never ends with all these multiballs. Do skilled players play this for 10 hours or what? I mean, my skills are baaaad and I walked away because this game is just super generous with balls and never ends).

Besides TS4, I also got some games in with GZ, JP, POTC, GnR and Rush and I only like GZ and Rush better than TS4.

Yeah... but Rush fans on here were begging and pleading.. and well.. they are kinda everywhere for sale now. Just because Jaws, BTTF, and others keep getting "wished" doesn't mean they're a good idea.

Finally, back to Toy Story. I sincerely hope BTTF and Jaws get made ASAP so that we'll satisfy those enthusiasts who can't post without referencing them, before I stab my eyes out. I find that when I greatly desire a theme, I build up my expectations to the point that I'm always disappointed when the pin comes out. No change with TS. I'm not a fan of the TS4 movie and had hoped for more of the classic characters from the first couple of movies in the pin. That said, I got to play it a few days ago and the game play is better than I expected. It's not $12K good, but it might have been $8K good in my value department. I particularly like the popup jump ramp and who wouldn't like to bash Gabby Gabby. That said, where's my sausage dog, Mr. Potato Head, and the toy soldiers? They could have been used very well on the playfield, but alas, we're stuck with the lesser of the Toy Story movies, unfortunately. Still, I'm cool with a game like this, maybe the color scheme and such will appeal to others outside of the hobby and bring in new folks. In the meantime, I'll continue to pick up whatever CGC comes out with, if I live long enough to see anything beyond CCR.

A good theme still doesn't make up for a bad pinball

Well as I've been saying for decades: Borg without Lyman gets you jack shit.
Look it up.

They were a great combo and created some great experiences that's for sure

I played plenty of toy story so far at the show, its a fun shooter, one thing I noticed is they corrected the post issue by removing art from under posts, i think thats a smart move on JJPs games moving forward, it shows they are definitely changing for the better, congratulations to them on making a fun game, i was never bored playing it thats for sure.

I am surprised that weak slings are still a common condition. Can’t you just turn the power up?

I have a Borg-heavy lineup (so maybe I'm biased), but I think he killed it with Rush (along with the rest of the team). One of the fastest, flowiest games he has ever produced...many of Borg's best layout/shot riffs all in one game! I like it much more than I thought I would (now feels like a keeper, whereas GNRLE lasted 5 months or so).

No doubt the rules don't have Lyman's touch, but it's still one of Sterns best ever rock and roll games (and I've owned almost all of them and still own MET/ACDC/KISS/Rush).

Nevertheless, if you aren't a fan of the band, I understand why someone wouldn't share my enthusiasm for it.

This is more about Stern building too many LE's I think. They built 400 TRON LE's, 600 KISS LE's and 1000 Rush LE's.

Man, Rush is so fun though. I was only vaguely familiar with the band before Stern's announcement, and so I have no real ties to the theme.

It shoots really well, and is just fun. In fact, I enjoyed Rush so much the first time I played it, I immediately listed my CCr for sale, so I could get one.

The reason that there are a lot of Rushs available right now, is that Stern is in the middle of a run of Pros and Premiums. I'm sure availability will dry up once Stern finishes this current run.

Got to play it last night at Pintastic -- it's fun! Better than I thought it would be. It's been too long since there's been a ramp shot (was NGG the last one? my brain is too tired & hungover to ponder such matters right now), and it's a lively game, not a lot of waiting around for a ball to eject. Also, maybe it's because I was playing oldies all night beforehand but the flippers were snappy, even for a game that's probably been on for 24 hours straight and being played for most of those.

It's not for me, particularly the theme and difficulty level, and I hate the extra screen taking up so much real estate, but it's pretty fun. Definitely something I'll play on location when I see it.

I think so, it plays nice. I haven't played a NGG in years, but I feel like its better than that. Flippers and floaty playfield was the typical JJP feel, but many people like that so I can't knock it down. I just had to tell myself "I'm not their target audience for this game" and enjoy it for what it is. I honestly think its the price that is making this game seem unpopular. Had this been $8k range for the low end version, it would be getting more raves. But when you move over to play a GZ Prem, DP, Rush, JP, CCr, etc and those come in all under $9k and are fast and fun, then TS4 seems crazy at 12k+

What sucked about Pintastic was I came home empty handed .... I went with cash and left without a game
Everything else was a ton of fun

Stripes the pin?!?!?!

Am I in the minority here or what? Do you guys like the bright rainbow lights on the side rails? I am sorry but I find them to be an eye sore and somewhat distracting. I do like that there is no ugly white butthole qr reader fudging up the apron looks classy without the distracting light. Not sure about the ipad position? It would have been soooooo much better if Pat kept the ipad but shoved it in back horizontal kinda like Circus Voltaire. Visible-yet out of the way, and then done a cool Toy Story interactive Toy? Oh Well

Game looks fun to me still.

Had an afterthought the other day. I bet you Toy Story is going to kill it for operators and become the new king for ops-a cash register if you will.

Move over Ghostbusters, Star Wars, Stranger Things-the throne has a new king. Just a thought

Taste the rainbow (resized).jpg

I like the side rail lights personally. The pin is very colorful and stands out nicely, should kill it on location especially for casual players.

I must be getting old? I am so over the rainbow shit-I can't get the taste of the rainbow out of my mouth. Seriously-it looks like Pinstadiums flipped upside down directly in your face-so distracting to me and a bad idea for pinball imo.

Your suggestion for putting the iPad a little further back like CV is a good idea. However, sometimes it’s a little difficult to view the screen in CV. You gotta bend down and see the information…. Seems Pat thought it was a good idea to have it front/center when they could have added a unique mechanical toy.

That goes to your 2nd part for Operators. I agree 100% that this game was designed more for Operators (location) and new pinheads…

Sure, current pin-heads will like it too, like myself, but seems we were not the main target.

Perhaps that is how this game can retain its value or minimize its depreciated value.

Adams Family is a prime example of how a magical Lawlor machine will hold it's value-every operator in town wanted an Adam's Family and I have a feeling it will be the same for Toy Story. Flippin cash register

Machine is $12k+ so at a $1 a play, it’s going to take a bunch of plays to pay off. TAF was seeing 3k and plays were .50 so it takes half the games for an operator to have the machine paid off.

Do I think the machine price is too high-yes.

Had a thought the other day-why all the lipstick? Is it really needed? They should have made a Standard version to honor the operators who let's face it-are the driving force of our hobby.

If they would have priced this game at $7500 for a standard without rails dipped in lipstick it would have sold even more units imo. I do think it may take a slight dip like Wonka-but not much and the amount of money that it will generate on location should have most ops grinning ear to ear.

It will earn but I don’t see a lot of operators buying. Keep in mind when GnR came out it was $9500 for a similar LE and that’s when operators pull the trigger…right when the machines come out. Operators are now asked to fork over an additional 3k with a looming downturn. I bet we see 30% less of these on route

It is a lot of cake

Wonder if an operator would rather have two new Stern Pro's or 1 JJP Toy Story 4?

Better question: What would earn better-two new Stern Pro's or 1 JJP Toy Story 4?

Funny but my bet is on JJP Toy Story 4-the theme is just a monster

Agree on the theme being a monster. Someone needs to make a decal to go over the 4’s on the cabinet and translite…hide it and it’ll just say Toy Story

I’m not an operator and don’t know how many games are played in a weeks time on a popular machine. Full disclosure. But say the machine generates 30 played per week, that’s 120 plays per month or 1,440 plays per year. At $1 per game that’s obviously $1,440 in annual earnings. That’s A 12% return on a $12k game. Assuming the game holds most of its value over 5 years I think that is a pretty good year over year return.

It’s like buying real estate on a much smaller scale. This makes sense as long as you think the pin will hold much of its initial investment. Now I don’t know if a 12% return is good for a pinball operator. But on paper to me that is pretty good if you are getting this amount of plays/earnings on average monthly basis.

Now if the pin was $7,500 that would be almost a 20% return. Clearly much better. But is 12% unacceptable for a pinball operator? Thoughts?

I am not an OP either but these will get more like 30-50 plays a day not a week. I was there an hour and played 10-15 games on TS4

there's a ST pro that had 35,000 plays in like 6 years and you have to figure it was less as it got older.

The games I see on location the shooter lanes look chewed up after a few months that would indicate thousands of plays in a few months.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-trek-with-4938-plays-pics/page/11
96c8619df19a3361fbce8baaa409b087eeac8ab8 (resized).jpeg

You must not have had a night out in NYC in a long long long time if you think an evening out there with a Broadway play is anywhere close to $100… Tickets for two for a decent play are pushing closer to $600 for halfway decent seats…that’s right, just the tickets…

Rush sold phenomenally well for Stern…every single distributor says they are stunned how well Rush has sold and that the demand was close to Godzilla. There are only a bunch available because a bunch were made. If every release had the sales’ numbers Rush has had Stern would be pleased.

BTTF will sell like gangbusters.

at $1/play,30/day ROI is just shy of 13 months. the ST you posted was at 16 plays a day ( averaged over the 6 years)

That was my fear with Rush, especially since Lyman loved Rush - I really wanted him coding this game. That being said, the game & code are absolutely fantastic…it’s one of my favorites, bolted to the floor! I think Lyman would have loved it.

I’m sure it would depend on the location, some places I go to charge a flat fee all you can play. Other places charge per game. Also I’ll go to an arcade and some games won’t get a single play the entire time I’m there. I’m sure these first few months are the golden time and maybe it’ll fade out.

I’ve tried to shed some light on operating several times and people just don’t get it. Pinball is not real estate, cars, stocks or bonds. Pinball is always consuming things such as space, electricity, parts, maintenance time, they are big and heavy. Pinball is not as simple as place a new machine on location and just sit back and collect. All these things make location pinball hard to do and hard to sell as a business model for proprietors to join in on. Now add in insurance and business loans (if you have those) vehicles to move machines around (vans or trucks with lift gates) a shop to work on and store pins, overhead for spare parts such as boards, rubbers, flipper parts and all the other consumables or known problem parts. Your “12%” return is not possible and an operator couldn’t even buy rice to eat.

Long story short, I’m an old operator, those numbers are shit and an operator would hang it up, starve, or go broke with numbers like that.

You forgot to account for the cut that goes to the venue (30-50%) and the cost of operating/repairs.

In your example that would net an operator $700-1000 (on the high side).

Yeah, I didn’t mention the “cut” and I did hit on repairs. Those two issues would consume a chapter each in a book. I just might know from experience or maybe I’m just full of poo-poo.

So I'm curious on a $12K+ machine how would it have to perform to make financial sense?

Yea I forgot about that. So the return is almost cut in half. And further decreased by repairs and whatnot.

Licensing and Taxes, too...

Tough road to be an operator.

I like it, when it makes sense. It makes sense for woz. It makes sense for gnr. It makes sense for wonka. I don't recall the toys doing lsd or going to las vegas, however.

I gave zero effs about a Rush pin, but boy does it have a sweet layout. Very good pin, minus the scoop absurdity.

Depends on an operators agreements and costs. A general rule of thumb is $100/week, per machine in total earnings.

At 12k plus $500 shipping, $400 dollar bill acceptor makes TS a 12.9k machine. Total earnings would be $5200/year if it maintained $100/week with zero maintenance time or costs (unrealistic)

Now figure the cut at say 20%, earnings are now $4160 with no maintenance time or costs.

If an operator only spent time in driving to the location to collect earnings, give the location its cut, drive to bank to deposit money and drive back home and only spent an hour (unrealistic) there is 52 hours time plus fuel. Currently gasoline is $5.20/gal here, let say 1 gallon per collect trip, that’s $270. $3890 remains, now it’s time for taxes and that’s such a huge variable it’s going to be extremely subjective, let’s say 20% and call it $780, $3110 remains.

Let’s figure business loans. When I had a business loan it was 7.25% so I’ll just use that number but I’m sure it’s more now. On 7 years that’s $3600 in interest or $43/month. $3070 now remains. All that gives you $255/month. None of this figures in maintenance cost, operators time, insurance, equipment depreciation or permitting.

An operator can’t survive let alone support a family on $250 a month. $250/month is not worth the headache to set out one machine either. It takes a lot machines at this rate to just stay afloat and that’s considering a constant $100/week for 7 years. Machines break so to expect a machine to run problem free for 7 years is unrealistic. Pins also get stagnant at a location so you either have to add more machines or replace them with other machines and that another bowl of worms with figures, especially with rising costs of machines and gathering the capital to acquire more machines.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I tried to make is short and simple.

When pins cost 5-15k and there are 3-6 different new pins out a year it often doesn’t make sense to route a game until it is paid off.

There is too much drop-off in earnings verse it’s residual value on the resale market. Why make $100/week and take another 70months with a below avg earner vs selling for 7k in a day and putting that money back into a game that will earn 2x as much? If a game is worth more to sell then it earning potential… you take the ‘now’ money and put it into a different earner.

Its also how you keep getting the games people want to see.

I keep telling people to stop thinking about the initial outlay and consider cost of ownership as the important factor but hobbyists just don’t get it.

Irony is… they do the same exact thing at home with turning over the majority of their nib games after a few years yet they insist ops are facing earning back 12k in the coin box alone.

I appreciate the response. Makes total sense....one would need 20+ machines performing at the above in order to make any kind of sense .. although I'm sure residual value plays a significant factor as well

Been to a carnival lately?

Bright leds are the rage
93409957-8DE5-40BB-AE4D-A08A3C96E1EC (resized).jpeg95328070-847D-4CA6-B1EC-149CFB21576F (resized).jpeg

But we know… rainbow leds go hand and hand with jjp

How does the operator math work out when the operator pulls the game after 20,000 plays, "shops" it out, and then lists it for sale as HUO for roughly NIB price?

With a viewpoint like that I suppose your view of an operator is they are scums and rip people off.

I would say you have to figure out the math on that one since I have no idea or experience with that situation.

I am an operator. I’ll leave it to the on location operators to chime in (beyond what they already have). Most arcade venues these days are single fee entry, everything on free play. A few are on free play except for the newest machines (Pacific Pinball Museum and Asheville is one example where Wonka is on 0.50 to $1 a play). For me the basic problem is this: I can pay $12K for this or for something else. I keep around 40 pins out of 120 games on the floor. Reality is that the pins should actually occupy less space than they do given the main attractions are skee ball, basketball, air hockey, boxing, etc to most customers. On an economic basis pins really didn’t ever make sense, but I like them so I have kept them. But my new pin costs have gone in the space of 3 years from $4500 (Star Trek - used though) $5300 (Metallica/ Star Wars) to $6300 (Mandalorian) to $7500 (Godzilla) to now a proposed $12K. That’s simply put ridiculous. It’s also unsustainable. I admire operators who have found a way to make this work. I can’t do it anymore. And it’s not that I can’t do it as in I can’t afford it, it’s I can’t do it when considering the panoply of things I could spend that $12K capital on and the marginal return on investment. And I say this even realizing that it can probably be traded in for say $10-11K in a year. It’s still tied up capital. And in order to afford it at no marginal capital cost I’d have to get rid of two other pins. Not worth it. I don’t begrudge JJP, this is focused at high end collectors, not those who are evaluating capital cost expenditures for their business versus do they have enough play money to afford this great toy. I have to be more sober about this choice because it’s a business not a hobby (well it’s still a hobby but I have to put a business hat on somewhat). When your revenue is $3-4K a week I look at it thru simple economics, as in is this worth a month of receipts to purchase. My personal evaluation is it is not. I respect others who feel otherwise

You need additional income like alcohol/barcade to make it happen.

My kids eat what my wife puts on the table or they don’t eat.

Those guys aren’t rocket scientists…and yet they keep doing it. I wonder why?

And don’t they get to depreciate everything over time and probably write shit off too? Then sell it for what they paid!

Again, maybe it’s not the way to get rich, but there must be advantages, or no one would do it.

“Those guys aren’t rocket scientists…and yet they keep doing it. I wonder why?”

Silver Ball Fever

And god bless them for that! One of my biggest thrills in the hobby was hitting SS Billiards for the first time. Been there a few and hoping to get back!

I've been in this incredible hobby for 3 decades.

I bought my first pin Funhouse in 92'. It was a ton of $$$ back then at $1300. Nearly 1/10th the cost of this new TS4. I'm fortunate to own over 2 dozen late model pins, play them and have many of my pin-buddies over to enjoy this incredible hobby. I have owned nearly 200 pins and classic arcade games, over the past 30 years, so I've seen and heard a lot.

HOWEVER... I think this new TS4 is going to be watched very carefully by many of the competitors (Stern / Spooky / etc.) and collectors alike. Especially, at this extremely inflated new pricing at $12,000. I can't imagine how the operators are going to operate it with the cost of doing business (splits, taxes, maintenance, travel etc) and the loss of value of a "routed" game, in the end. I don't think the home market will be able to hit sale #'s to make this the new norm.

It's going to be interesting to watch this unfold from the sidelines... for some time.