(Topic ID: 158202)

Tournament rules question-Extra Balls/Add-a-balls on EMs?

By ChrisBardon

7 years ago


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  • 11 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by bkerins
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#1 7 years ago

This is something that came up in a tournament I was running today, and I wanted to see what other league/tournament folks thought of it. One of the games that the location had on hand was Melody, an old EM with an add a ball as a major feature in the game. Now one of the standard rules in the Toronto League (topl.ca) is that we don't play extra balls. You get one flip on them (mainly because most games need a switch to register to advance), but that's it. I'm sure many other leagues have a similar rule for the same reason we do-to keep things moving.

For DMD and SS games, this makes a lot of sense. Most DMD games aren't designed around adding balls, and while getting an extra ball is a nice bonus on these games, it's not essential to play. On some older games though, adding balls is a fundamental feature of the game, and taking it away removes a key piece of strategy that players might have. It's also harder to track added/extra balls on older games, especially single player ones, because people either won't notice they got an extra ball, or will lose track of their manual ball count (willfully or not). Add to this the fact that EMs are rarely the longest playing games in a tournament, with their general proclivity for giving out house balls, and I'm thinking about a rule change that would allow playing added/extra balls on EM games if they're enabled. My questions:
-Do any of you play in leagues/tournaments where this is allowed? Is it an across the board rule, or a case by case decision?
-Are there specific games you can think of where a rule like this could be exploited (i.e. where someone could play forever)?

Just trying to get a sense whether this is crazy or not. In this particular case, I let players who were on Melody play added balls, and it definitely didn't slow the match play rounds down, but I'm not sure whether I want to decide this case by case, or have a default one way or the other.

#2 7 years ago

There's no reason you can't have EBs on in a league IMO. It will be a problem if you let players have EBs on games where the ball times are longer but on an old add-a-ball em, or even most solid state games, EBs are not likely to hold up tournament progress with the far shorter ball times. The only possible issue I can imagine is that the rules will vary from title to title so you'd need to have it clearly marked for players to see.

#3 7 years ago

EBs - as in shoot agains? I believe in plunging those out. Hitting flipper buttons BEFORE launching ball is ok, after that you can't touch it. Games can just go way too long if you are playing EBs - really? We need EBs on LOTR and SM? And it's just not done. A tournament with EBs is kind of amateur hour.

But AAB games (specifically 70s WOW gottliebs) I believe you play as is. Most AAB games are pointless if you aren't going for WOWs, it's the point of the game. And it would be harder to keep track of how many balls you have played anyway. So in my IFPA tournaments we make exceptions if there is an AAB wedgehead on hand.

IF people don't go for that, recuse AAB games from play.

#4 7 years ago

I did check the PAPA rules this morning, and there's a note in the classics rules that says "Machines used in Classics may include extra balls and/or five-ball play. These features may be utilized by the player unless otherwise posted". It'd be interesting to track which games there are exceptions on.

#5 7 years ago

We have a Diamond Jack in league, and we definitely allow AAB. EBs are otherwise Off in the software for all other games.

#6 7 years ago

So if extra balls are not allowed on solid state games
then how do you play games like Centaur.
Or I guess you might consider that a multiball mode.

On an AAB pin like Melody, you are not going to worry that games last too long
as with that game it is so hard to earn an added ball anyways.
Pop a Card though is a AAB pin where it might be too easy to earn added balls.

Some AABs can be set for novelty play, earn extra points instead of extra balls.

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from ChrisBardon:

I did check the PAPA rules this morning, and there's a note in the classics rules that says "Machines used in Classics may include extra balls and/or five-ball play. These features may be utilized by the player unless otherwise posted". It'd be interesting to track which games there are exceptions on.

For PAPA and Pinburgh, there are no exceptions. All games play "as is" -- if it's giving extra balls, you play them. When possible, extra balls are shut off in software, but it's not always possible. Bonus balls and timed balls are also played, such as Medusa's earned bonus time ball.

Any other rules about extra balls are house or league rules, including the rules to plunge EBs or flip once or play only 1 EB per player.

#8 7 years ago

I'm not sure that an add-a-ball game is a great idea for tournament play because a good player might play forever. In that case I would go with the one flip rule as mentioned. A lot of EMs have no extra balls. For those that do, I usually prefer to play them out. A great example is Target Alpha. With this game the drop targets don't reset during the ball, so there is sort of a limit on the scoring for each ball to 15,000 plus whatever you get banging the ball around. Getting an extra ball or two is what sets a great game apart from a good game.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I'm not sure that an add-a-ball game is a great idea for tournament play because a good player might play forever. In that case I would go with the one flip rule as mentioned. A lot of EMs have no extra balls. For those that do, I usually prefer to play them out. A great example is Target Alpha. With this game the drop targets don't reset during the ball, so there is sort of a limit on the scoring for each ball to 15,000 plus whatever you get banging the ball around. Getting an extra ball or two is what sets a great game apart from a good game.

The problem with setting a "one-flip rule" or something like it for tournament play is that it requires vigilance to enforce. Normally, you can just let someone play, then record their score when the game's over -- if there is a plunge-EB requirement then a scorekeeper has to watch that game carefully at all times; then if a player plays an EB without knowing, what's the enforcement? These are all reasons to avoid games where EBs can't be shut off, but to let it go if necessary.

I agree with you that certain add-a-ball games should be off limits because they could, unfortunately, take a very long time.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from bkerins:

The problem with setting a "one-flip rule" or something like it for tournament play is that it requires vigilance to enforce. Normally, you can just let someone play, then record their score when the game's over -- if there is a plunge-EB requirement then a scorekeeper has to watch that game carefully at all times; then if a player plays an EB without knowing, what's the enforcement? These are all reasons to avoid games where EBs can't be shut off, but to let it go if necessary.

I agree with you that certain add-a-ball games should be off limits because they could, unfortunately, take a very long time.

We don't really have a problem with the one flip rule for EBs on most league games. Just about all of our league nights/tournaments are in private collections, and most people don't disable EBs in the software (nor would I expect them to). All the members know about the rule, and since everything is match play, we rely on the groups to self-police. I can't recall an instance where this has been a problem on a DMD game (other than maybe people trying to question the definition of "one flip", but that's a separate thread). Even multi-player EMs are OK, since it's (usually) pretty obvious when you advance/don't advance to the next player that the same player has an extra ball (although sometimes it can be hard to tell, especially if the wrong bulb is out).

I think the resolution for us might be to tackle things on a case by case basis. The general rule might change to "if it has mechanical score reels, play all your balls, unless specifically told otherwise", which can include any of the AAB wedgeheads, but it'll really depend on what we come up against.

Any thoughts on which add a ball games should be removed from play? I've been going through the game notes section on PAPA.org, but I haven't seen anything so far that says whether there are infinite added balls/extra balls or not. Might be a useful thing to add? Either way, I'll probably just start consulting that as we come up against games that I'm not as familiar with.

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from ChrisBardon:

We don't really have a problem with the one flip rule for EBs on most league games. Just about all of our league nights/tournaments are in private collections, and most people don't disable EBs in the software (nor would I expect them to). All the members know about the rule, and since everything is match play, we rely on the groups to self-police. I can't recall an instance where this has been a problem on a DMD game (other than maybe people trying to question the definition of "one flip", but that's a separate thread). Even multi-player EMs are OK, since it's (usually) pretty obvious when you advance/don't advance to the next player that the same player has an extra ball (although sometimes it can be hard to tell, especially if the wrong bulb is out).
I think the resolution for us might be to tackle things on a case by case basis. The general rule might change to "if it has mechanical score reels, play all your balls, unless specifically told otherwise", which can include any of the AAB wedgeheads, but it'll really depend on what we come up against.
Any thoughts on which add a ball games should be removed from play? I've been going through the game notes section on PAPA.org, but I haven't seen anything so far that says whether there are infinite added balls/extra balls or not. Might be a useful thing to add? Either way, I'll probably just start consulting that as we come up against games that I'm not as familiar with.

For larger tournaments this type of vigilance can't be 100% confirmed for everyone. There have definitely been issues around this at events, both in qualifying and finals, where players didn't know whether to plunge or play. It's another reason to make it always "play as is" if it's a large public event. For small private events and leagues, no problem to make or enforce this rule

There aren't any add-a-ball games in the PAPA collection that I know of, which is probably why there aren't any game notes about them. I'm not familiar enough with add-a-ball games to know what to include or exclude, sorry!

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