(Topic ID: 38782)

Tournament play... A question of ethics


By RGR

6 years ago



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  • 84 posts
  • 30 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by bkerins
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    Topic poll

    “Tournament play... A question of ethics”

    • Cheat sheets/ strategy cards are fine 35 votes
      49%
    • Hell no, part of the skill is having a good memory 3 votes
      4%
    • Its ok as long as everyone has access to it 12 votes
      17%
    • Its only fine in between games/balls 21 votes
      30%

    (71 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 84 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 6 years ago

    But they're not doing their homework. Doing their homework would be actually learning how to play the game and remembering it when necessary. It's not called a "cheat sheet" for nothing.

    At Pinburgh players will be allowed to use any reference material they like, videos or sheets or other players, anytime they are NOT playing their turn. No reference material will be allowed during play other than the material the game already provides on its playfield or instruction cards.

    #52 6 years ago

    This is not an open book test. Come prepared.

    #53 6 years ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    In the case of AC/DC, just put the song/album/tour info cheat sheet on the backglass for all to see.
    Problem solved.

    I have no problem with cheat sheets being given out or taped to the wall, but I don't like things taped to the backglass. It's distracting (and done entirely too much IMO). Making the game harder is expected, but distracting the player with fliers on the backglass (or bad LED's) is too much.

    #54 6 years ago

    Tournaments really have nothing to do with cheat sheets. They are allowed and in some cases encouraged. They are almost always a non-issue across the board.

    I agree 100% with the distraction statement... Tournaments using LEDs and added paperwork/info items to the apron and/or backglass are uncalled for and annoying.

    #55 6 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    One time I was playing with the danish pinball champion (seriously, there is one!) and he had not seen Creature since it was originally on location. He remembered nothing about it. I talked him through the shots and on his very first game he got just under a billion.

    Well. Mads is an exceptional player in every aspect of the game. We're enjoying ruthless battles on the 10 some operated games in Copenhagen.

    I don't think there will be a problem of extended game times because people are reading notes while playing. Seriously, who will be playing better when constantly interupted. And having a playing style relying heavily on pausing the game requires a bit of skill on its own, I'd say.

    I bring notes to competition. I only remember pulling them out twice while playing. Once for checking up on MB monster modes completion. And once of checking how to set the jackpot value for a particular ringmaster multi-ball I'd lined up.

    And one time I remember a kindly reminder when reading the notes prior to a game. The annihilation bonus.

    Such a use of notes is fine as I see it. No putting it on the glass/backbox. Of course you should leave the game as the organiser have set it up.

    #56 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    I have no problem with cheat sheets being given out or taped to the wall, but I don't like things taped to the backglass. It's distracting

    Tape it over shirtless, sweaty Angus.
    I see what you mean, but are you really looking at the BG while playing?
    Seems to be the place where notes will be seen. I put a note about a game under the glass on the apron at one of my tourneys (play single player games), lots of people missed it.

    #57 6 years ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    I see what you mean, but are you really looking at the BG while playing?

    No, but it's in my peripheral vision. The idea is that the game should be just like the one you play at home, only harder. Visual distractions shouldn't be part of making a game harder IMO. Make it steep, tighten the tilt and open the outlanes, but don't plaster the backglass with fliers or add ridiculous LED's.

    Quoted from DNO:

    Seems to be the place where notes will be seen. I put a note about a game under the glass on the apron at one of my tourneys (play single player games), lots of people missed it.

    Yes, occasionally games do need small notes (something disabled, radical setting change). For me, I suppose it's alright to put a small note on the playfield glass above the apron. I can see how they'd miss it under the glass. You could insult your customers there and most wouldn't notice it.

    A friend and I went and played at a location yesterday that had fliers all over the backglasses. It looked like hell. Can't believe the op lets people deface his games like that. On the plus side, the game we played was working fine. So I guess I can live with graffiti all over the game if it's working properly.

    #58 6 years ago

    My opinion is that 'items' should not be allowed to be pulled out during gameplay. In between games while you're waiting, sure, but not during play.

    Allowing devices and pieces of paper to be pulled out and placed on the glass during gameplay is a slippery slope which will eventually lead to so much use, distraction, and expanding on such crutches that it'll get out of control and bog tournies down, and make it so that you'll have to play with your ipad on the game to have the same advantages of ruleset knowledge. Might as well ban them now.

    Let's just be honest. Legal or illegal, it's LAME!

    #59 6 years ago

    Should the menu cards be pulled out during events like Pinburgh then??? I obvs dont think so but they too provide information about the game, however the question is how much info is too much info??? Heck for players that are not on this forum and who do not own an ACDC, hell there is no way that they would ever know about the song jackpot during multiball... If you were playing against them clearly you would have an advantage but knowing this strategy (which imo should be included in the status)...

    I think to solve this problem, the status should update to inform you what song needs to be played to award the need song jackpot during album and tour MB. If a player fails to check that then thats their problem.

    #60 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Heck for players that are not on this forum and who do not own an ACDC, hell there is no way that they would ever know about the song jackpot during multiball... If you were playing against them clearly you would have an advantage but knowing this strategy (which imo should be included in the status)...

    You keep bringing this up and I think your worries are way overblown. In tournament play, there is going to be very few opportunities to use the song order to your advantage. Watch the video below from Pinburgh last year and tell me how many times any of the four players can use the song order to their advantage. The players include Robert Gagno, who you mentioned earlier, PAPA 14 winner Andrei Massenkoff and Bob Matthews, currently ranked 34th. Watch the video and tell us where they could have (or did) use the song order to their advantage. I think you'll be surprised.

    http://pinball.org/videos/tournament/papa/pinburgh-2012-round-10/

    #61 6 years ago

    For fairness, they should be left out for everyone, otherwise he should only be allowed to look at them between balls

    #62 6 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    But they're not doing their homework. Doing their homework would be actually learning how to play the game and remembering it when necessary. It's not called a "cheat sheet" for nothing.
    At Pinburgh players will be allowed to use any reference material they like, videos or sheets or other players, anytime they are NOT playing their turn. No reference material will be allowed during play other than the material the game already provides on its playfield or instruction cards.

    Eh... I disagree with this. There are so many games at Pinburgh and most players have access to a few, particularly new-comers. Who is going to memorize the ST:TNG video pattern? But that can be a game maker. Just an example, but it happens.

    #63 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Should the menu cards be pulled out during events like Pinburgh then??? I obvs dont think so but they too provide information about the game, however the question is how much info is too much info??? Heck for players that are not on this forum and who do not own an ACDC, hell there is no way that they would ever know about the song jackpot during multiball... If you were playing against them clearly you would have an advantage but knowing this strategy (which imo should be included in the status)...
    I think to solve this problem, the status should update to inform you what song needs to be played to award the need song jackpot during album and tour MB. If a player fails to check that then thats their problem.

    No, because menu cards are provided by the game. Any information provided by the game is clearly allowed. Otherwise, where does it end -- pull the pop bumper caps off so people won't know they're worth 1000 when lit?

    The general idea here is for people to gather whatever information they can get, whether it's a rule sheet, video, cheat sheet, forum post, or a friend, and use that information to get better at the game. But when it's time to play, it's you and the machine. No coaching.

    The fix you describe for AC/DC is somewhat in place; it will tell the player what album and tour are next. They still need to remember what song goes with what album or tour. I agree that this is a particularly esoteric piece of rules knowledge, but no more esoteric than the characters in Who Dunnit or the souvenirs in Road Show or the hidden features in Shaq Attaq. Players can learn those details if they want to, if they think it will help them, but I don't think you'll ever convince me that reference material should be used during a tournament.

    #64 6 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    Eh... I disagree with this. There are so many games at Pinburgh and most players have access to a few, particularly new-comers. Who is going to memorize the ST:TNG video pattern? But that can be a game maker. Just an example, but it happens.

    But a player can see that they're about to play STTNG, and use that time to re-learn the pattern by asking a friend or looking it up. (It's not hard, actually: 2-2-2, 1-1-1. 2 lefts, 2 rights, 2 lefts. 1 right, 1 left, 1 right.) But using a cheat sheet during the turn is like having someone behind you yelling LEFT and RIGHT. I don't think that's fair.

    #65 6 years ago

    Yeah I agree that cheat sheets should not be used during the game play hence the reason I decided not to use them in the national comp here. ACDC is one of the very few games that is so deep that it would take an extraordinary mind or someone that has played ACDC thousands of times to remember all the albums with the songs and the tours with the songs. If that can be done lol then good luck to them! Hehe an ACDC fan would surely know these as well...

    #66 6 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    But a player can see that they're about to play STTNG, and use that time to re-learn the pattern by asking a friend or looking it up. (It's not hard, actually: 2-2-2, 1-1-1. 2 lefts, 2 rights, 2 lefts. 1 right, 1 left, 1 right.) But using a cheat sheet during the turn is like having someone behind you yelling LEFT and RIGHT. I don't think that's fair.

    Bowen, are you honestly capable of remembering that pattern RIGHT before a game?

    You probably are - you're a math wiz.

    #67 6 years ago

    If you can remember a phone number you can remember the sttng video EB pattern

    #68 6 years ago

    If you're asking whether I can remember the phrase "2 2 2 1 1 1", yes, yes I can.

    #69 6 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    Bowen, are you honestly capable of remembering that pattern RIGHT before a game?

    Quoted from bkerins:

    If you're asking whether I can remember the phrase "2 2 2 1 1 1", yes, yes I can.

    LLRRLRL...not hard to remember at all. I can also remember 23,46,824,315 for you Major Havoc fans

    2 months later
    #71 6 years ago

    Well, I'll repeat my opinion: this should not be allowed during gameplay, and was not allowed at Pinburgh 2013. If we allow this we should allow all forms of coaching from player to player.

    #72 6 years ago

    I agree with Bowen: no coaching (something beyond the physical game, its built-in displays/info, and information affixed to the game by the operator/organizer) during your turn at the pin. I liberally used both cheat sheets and input from people before/after matches, and between balls.

    I must admit that printing out a game-specific cheat sheet the size of the instruction card to lay on the apron during your turn is very creative. Still.... Not a good idea to allow it.

    #73 6 years ago

    In the same topic of coaching vs. socializing: what are everyone's thoughts on turning to your fellow players to ask if a heavy nudge/shake resulted in one danger or two dangers (when you didn't notice how many times Danger flashed on the DMD)?

    My thought is that by the rule, this would be coaching. But in a casual environment, I/we do this all the time.

    #74 6 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Well, I'll repeat my opinion: this should not be allowed during gameplay, and was not allowed at Pinburgh 2013. If we allow this we should allow all forms of coaching from player to player.

    You ever got a strat or tip from Neil on a game you weren't familiar with at a tournament Bowen? Morally, is that any more or less cheating than him briefly checking notes?

    #75 6 years ago

    There's a huge difference between that happening -while someone is playing- instead of it happening between turns, games, or whenever. I mean what if I just walk up to a guy playing an elimination game and tell him "Hey you should shoot this ramp right now, it's lit for jackpot and you don't seem to have noticed". Don't you think that player's opponent would be rightfully upset?

    I've certainly talked back and forth with Neil and others about game strategies, but it's not during the game! That is a gigantic difference. I have never asked another player for game advice while playing my turn in competition.

    Also, none of this is "cheating", and I never used that word to describe Neil's choice. He did not cheat one bit to do what he did in that tournament, it was within the rules. I don't feel that should be allowed, so when I get the chance to run tournaments, it's not.

    #76 6 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    I've certainly talked back and forth with Neil and others about game strategies, but it's not during the game! That is a gigantic difference.

    Neil wasn't talking with anyone. To me, asking for tips on a game is worse than briefly checking notes mid-game. No matter when you ask. Granted, I doubt you've ever begged Neil for tips, but I'm sure you've seen plenty of others do it.

    Quoted from bkerins:

    Also, none of this is "cheating", and I never used that word to describe Neil's choice. He did not cheat one bit to do what he did in that tournament, it was within the rules.

    No one helps more players at tournaments than Neil. Which is probably why no one batted an eye when he whipped out his notes. If I would've done it, they would've been all over me. For Neil, they were cheering him on. Pretty cool to watch.

    The thing I took away from that incident was don't pause too long. Obviously, checking his notes didn't work in that case. He lost his rhythm by pausing so long (30 seconds is forever in pinball). I don't think he pulled out that sheet again the rest of the tournament and he went on to win. He may have gained a brief mental advantage by checking his notes, but he quickly drained because he lost his rhythm.

    #77 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    Neil wasn't talking with anyone. To me, asking for tips on a game is worse than briefly checking notes mid-game. No matter when you ask. Granted, I doubt you've ever begged Neil for tips, but I'm sure you've seen plenty of others do it.

    No one helps more players at tournaments than Neil. Which is probably why no one batted an eye when he whipped out his notes. If I would've done it, they would've been all over me. For Neil, they were cheering him on. Pretty cool to watch.
    The thing I took away from that incident was don't pause too long. Obviously, checking his notes didn't work in that case. He lost his rhythm by pausing so long (30 seconds is forever in pinball). I don't think he pulled out that sheet again the rest of the tournament and he went on to win. He may have gained a brief mental advantage by checking his notes, but he quickly drained because he lost his rhythm.

    Pinbugh has scheduled rounds. If everyone took out a their encyclopedia of pinball knowledge and thumbed through it to find the right page, digest some important strategy they forgot while everyone stood around waiting, people would be pissed and the rounds would never stop. When you're not playing do whatever you want except give the person playing advice on gameplay. YAY!

    #78 6 years ago
    Quoted from Winball_Pizard:

    Pinbugh has scheduled rounds. If everyone took out a their encyclopedia of pinball knowledge and thumbed through it to find the right page, digest some important strategy they forgot while everyone stood around waiting, people would be pissed and the rounds would never stop.

    I get that. But where exactly do you draw the line? If a guy makes a big nudge save and a gets tilt warning, then quickly gets the ball under control and cradles it for 10 or 15 seconds to let the tilt bob settle, should that be illegal too? The player is obviously delaying the game to his advantage. Should we ban nudging too? To keep things moving?

    #79 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    I get that. But where exactly do you draw the line? If a guy makes a big nudge save and a gets tilt warning, then quickly gets the ball under control and cradles it for 10 or 15 seconds to let the tilt bob settle, should that be illegal too? The player is obviously delaying the game to his advantage. Should we ban nudging too? To keep things moving?

    Waiting for the tilt to settle after a warning is part of game play. Reading a cheat sheet is not.

    #80 6 years ago

    Either decision is not an all-encompassing rule that applies to all things related. We can go tit-for-tat over the excuses for going one way or the other, but the bottom line we seem to be coming to is that it is a gray area at best. It's not going to devastate an event if everyone has personal rule sheets to bust out mid-ball as much as it's not going to completely ruin half the bracket's chances of winning if they are not allowed.

    I'll allow it in my events, you can disallow it in yours. If someone is going to get completely riled up and start throwing verbal "*" on other player's wins/losses at an event, just because a tournament allows/disallows sheets mid-play: I encourage that person to stay TF home for the sake of everyone involved. Yah' know?

    #81 6 years ago
    Quoted from Winball_Pizard:

    Waiting for the tilt to settle after a warning is part of game play. Reading a cheat sheet is not.

    Both are an intentional delay of the game to gain an advantage. Who are you to say one is okay and the other isn't?

    Quoted from sosage:

    ...the bottom line we seem to be coming to is that it is a gray area at best.

    I suppose so. From what I've heard, cradling balls was considered bad form back when guys first started doing it. Even for a couple of seconds. Now, guys have no qualms at all about timing out modes to reach a later goal. So the accepted norms of tournament play do change. Slow as hell, but they do change. Maybe slow changes are a good thing. If they suddenly switched to a modified Stableford scoring system, I would be outta here!

    #82 6 years ago

    In the near future wearing a Google Glass prohibited in a tourney?

    #83 6 years ago

    In the near future wearing a Google Glass prohibited in a tourney?

    Two words: Atomic wedgie

    atomic-wedgie-seinfeld.jpg

    #84 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    Both are an intentional delay of the game to gain an advantage. Who are you to say one is okay and the other isn't?

    Uh, I am, as tournament director? My opinion: when you're playing the game it should be you versus the machine, nothing else, nobody else. When you're not playing the game, go nuts, learn all you want. If it's somebody else's event, they can make whatever rules they want. Agree to disagree on this one, I sez.

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