(Topic ID: 38782)

Tournament play... A question of ethics


By RGR

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by bkerins
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    Topic poll

    “Tournament play... A question of ethics”

    • Cheat sheets/ strategy cards are fine 35 votes
      49%
    • Hell no, part of the skill is having a good memory 3 votes
      4%
    • Its ok as long as everyone has access to it 12 votes
      17%
    • Its only fine in between games/balls 21 votes
      30%

    (71 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 84 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 6 years ago

    Your playing in an event either at a home game, PAPA, Pinburgh, IFPA etc etc. The game of choice is ACDC and you are playing with 3 other people. One of the players has some "cheat sheets" which he places on either side of the game which cover the menu cards.. One sheet has the song associated with the tours and the other has the songs assoicated with the albums. When he finishes playing he takes the sheets/cards off the game.

    Is this unethical or against the rules to have strategy sheets or cards which help you learn the game whilst playing it in a tournament. I know there are applications that are allowed when playing online poker to help you and given that ACDC is so complicated I was wondering what anyone thought if this????

    #2 6 years ago

    I have never seen a tournament that does not allow cheat sheets. I have no problem with it, but I would hopefully beat the guy as I would have easy pickings for teasing him about the loss

    #3 6 years ago

    I can't get past the thought of "I wish ACDC was a choice in my local tournaments".

    #4 6 years ago

    It's not like he has information that anyone else doesn't have access to, so I'd say it's allowed, but I'm also for leveling the playing field for everyone. That's why I had the video mode sequence printed on the rule card for my STTNG-that way nobody could complain about someone else having memorized the order anymore

    #5 6 years ago

    Most of the larger tournaments have a limited time set for delaying the game. As long as that person does not delay the game beyond the rules I don't have a problem with them having notes. Having all the notes you can still does not translate into hitting shots.

    #6 6 years ago

    I don't see an issue with this either. Understanding the best way to score points is pretty important. Especially on a game like AC/DC where some songs award so much more than others.

    #7 6 years ago

    It wouldn't bother me really, but I do think it's S U P E R lame...

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Your playing in an event either at a home game, PAPA, Pinburgh, IFPA etc etc. The game of choice is ACDC and you are playing with 3 other people. One of the players has some "cheat sheets" which he places on either side of the game which cover the menu cards.. One sheet has the song associated with the tours and the other has the songs assoicated with the albums. When he finishes playing he takes the sheets/cards off the game.
    Is this unethical or against the rules to have strategy sheets or cards which help you learn the game whilst playing it in a tournament. I know there are applications that are allowed when playing online poker to help you and given that ACDC is so complicated I was wondering what anyone thought if this????

    It's totally allowed. In fact, if you know the lineup for a tournament in advance it's a good idea to watch whatever tutorials are available and print off the rule sheet at pinball.org. People used to bring the shuttle cave pattern for ST:TNG.

    #9 6 years ago

    What if those notes where given to a player that had never played the game before and followed the strategy given to them from an A grade player and went on to win Division D in Pinburgh???

    -1
    #10 6 years ago

    D division? Who cares about D division haha

    #11 6 years ago

    that makes it a little cheaper, but still allowed unless the tournament specifically prohibits it in the rules.

    #12 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    What if those notes where given to a player that had never played the game before and followed the strategy given to them from an A grade player and went on to win Division D in Pinburgh???

    They still have to hit the shots, and tourneys aren't won on a single game, especially not Pinburgh. Some of the top A players coach their less-skilled, or less-knowledgable friends at these events regularly. There are rules against coaching during play usually however.

    #13 6 years ago

    Yeah strategy cards that are on the game could be considered coaching during the game?? I understand that shots have to be made however you could have an A grade player who knows nothing about ACDC getting smashed by a B grade player who knows the strategy. Its one of those games where knowledge and strategy have a massive advantage...

    #14 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    What if those notes where given to a player that had never played the game before and followed the strategy given to them from an A grade player and went on to win Division D in Pinburgh???

    Yeah, coaching and sharing info is encouraged (between balls but not during actual play)

    During the warmup at pinburgh last year myself and the other league players hit different banks of games and then reported back our findings via group text. "loose tilt on Transformers" "claw disabled on demoman." On games I didn't know at all, I would try to find one of the other league players who already played it and get some pointers. Twice that resulted in wins.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremecium:

    Most of the larger tournaments have a limited time set for delaying the game. As long as that person does not delay the game beyond the rules I don't have a problem with them having notes. Having all the notes you can still does not translate into hitting shots.
    ยป YouTube video

    Bring notes Wednesday.

    #16 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Yeah strategy cards that are on the game could be considered coaching during the game?? I understand that shots have to be made however you could have an A grade player who knows nothing about ACDC getting smashed by a B grade player who knows the strategy. Its one of those games where knowledge and strategy have a massive advantage...

    In a nutshell, that's pinball.

    And actually, the situation is even worse than that. At pinburgh/papa, the "usual" big scoring strategies for games will often times be made more difficult through software or mechanical adjustment. For example on Family Guy, I can spinner/mode/spinner/mode on most route games for 50M easy before I ever think of other shots in the game. But the one at Pinburgh was extremely hard to control off the loop. Nobody scored well and the guys who finished top 2 basically did so because they shot the right ramp several times for a few extra million so their suck was a little better than our suck.

    #17 6 years ago
    Quoted from jonnyo:

    Yeah, coaching and sharing info is encouraged.
    During the warmup at pinburgh last year myself and the other league players hit different banks of games and then reported back our findings via group text. "loose tilt on Transformers" "claw disabled on demoman." On games I didn't know at all, I would try to find one of the other league players who already played it and get some pointers. Twice that resulted in wins.

    Agreed but knowing the faults/ flipper angles/ skillshot settings on a game if different that memorizing a strategy namely which songs to line up with album and tour MBs to get the song jackpot...

    I agree theres nothing wrong with learning about a game prior or during an event.. Like theres TVs to watch etc but just not sure about having notes on the game itself while you are playing it.

    Down here we had the national ACDC championship and I was debating whether to have a set of notes on the game. I decided not to do it...

    #18 6 years ago
    Quoted from TaylorVA:

    Bring notes Wednesday.

    Ha! I probably should. Or I could just spike my competitor's drinks with tranquilizers.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Down here we had the national ACDC championship and I was debating whether to have a set of notes on the game. I decided not to do it...

    Did you win?

    #20 6 years ago

    I will have my phone on the glass, watching PAPA tutorials while I play Pinburg!
    Really though, I think once a player steps up to a game, it should just be the player and the game.
    If they want to brush up on some strategy between balls with a cheatsheet, that's fine.

    #21 6 years ago

    If I see a cheat sheet come out during a game I'm going to cackle and guffaw so loudly that the player gets embarrassed and runs to hide. Especially if it's you DNO!

    #22 6 years ago
    Quoted from tomdotcom:

    It wouldn't bother me really, but I do think it's S U P E R lame...

    ^^^^This

    #23 6 years ago

    There are many players who come to the World Championships in August and don't play the first day because they spend all their time watching the tv's to learn how the games are playing. The ability to retain information and use it to your advantage is a part of all competitions, and there's nothing wrong with taking notes, having a playbook, cheatsheet, or a video mode sequence written in pen on the back of your hand. In the end, you have to hit the shot, and that ability is what ideally separates the players.

    The entire concept of the pinball.org video archive was to pass information along to an up and coming generation of players who don't have access to every game. For that matter, pinball.org has been the longest running home of cheatsheats and rulesheets on the internet. Please watch all the videos you can, take notes, learn the strategies or write them down to help remember, and bring your A-game when you come to compete. Screaming out advice and coaching during the actual game is not allowed between players, but socializing and sharing information between rounds is just part of being in a community. There's no problem with that.

    #24 6 years ago

    Any time someone breaks out a cheatsheet during the game is pretty funny to see though...

    #25 6 years ago

    I tend to agree with MHS as far as writing whatever you want on your hand, or whipping out a piece of paper with some info on it, etc.

    Personally I think the line is drawn at 'electronic devices'.

    I know I have the AC/DC song list bookmark'd on my iPhone for reference during the game, but I actually think that is crossing the line for tournament play, because I could just as easily look at my iPhone to read a text from my brother giving me coaching tips 'live'.

    Josh

    #26 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I tend to agree with MHS as far as writing whatever you want on your hand, or whipping out a piece of paper with some info on it, etc.
    Personally I think the line is drawn at 'electronic devices'.
    I know I have the AC/DC song list bookmark'd on my iPhone for reference during the game, but I actually think that is crossing the line for tournament play, because I could just as easily look at my iPhone to read a text from my brother giving me coaching tips 'live'.
    Josh

    Uh oh slippery slope. How do we know that's an mp3 player the guy is listening to?

    #27 6 years ago

    I am signing up for E level tourney.... Soon anyways...

    #28 6 years ago

    I think ACDC is the only game that you may need a cheat sheet during the game since its so hard to remember which song to play depending on what album/ tour you are upto... Not sure that an mp3 player would be affective here...

    #29 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    The game of choice is ACDC and you are playing with 3 other people. One of the players has some "cheat sheets" which he places on either side of the game which cover the menu cards.. One sheet has the song associated with the tours and the other has the songs assoicated with the albums. When he finishes playing he takes the sheets/cards off the game.

    There's a couple of things wrong with that. First, because the game is going to be setup harder for a tournament, those cheat sheets aren't going to be useful very often. Short games, not many multiballs (where the cheat sheet might come in handy).

    Secondly, a good player doesn't need all that data. All a player has to remember is a couple of songs that are early in both the tours and albums. TNT and Whole Lotta Rosie are two. Album and/or Tour Multiball is ready and the jukebox is lit? Shoot the jukebox and switch to TNT or Rosie, start multiball. No cheat sheet needed. See for yourself:

    http://www.pinballreviews.com/acdc_songbonus.htm

    If someone does whip out a cheat sheet for AC/DC at Pinburgh, my initial impression would be that he/she is not a very good player. A good player does his homework before he gets there. Not during a game.

    #30 6 years ago

    VIII. Player Conduct

    1. Intentional Delays

    No player may delay their game for more than 30 seconds, except to await a ruling or resolution of an environmental inconvenience.

    Seems like you might be able to call someone out for doing it but, would you.

    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    There's a couple of things wrong with that. First, because the game is going to be setup harder for a tournament, those cheat sheets aren't going to be useful very often. Short games, not many multiballs (where the cheat sheet might come in handy).
    Secondly, a good player doesn't need all that data. All a player has to remember is a couple of songs that are early in both the tours and albums. TNT and Whole Lotta Rosie are two. Album and/or Tour Multiball is ready and the jukebox is lit? Shoot the jukebox and switch to TNT or Rosie, start multiball. No cheat sheet needed. See for yourself:
    http://www.pinballreviews.com/acdc_songbonus.htm
    If someone does whip out a cheat sheet for AC/DC at Pinburgh, my initial impression would be that he/she is not a very good player. A good player does his homework before he gets there. Not during a game.

    Yeah agreed, given that the game will be set up so hard then it is unlikely that you would need to know the songs for the second round of album or tour, but it is possible for A graders to get more than one MB... Given that there are alot of song combinations only Robert Gagno could remember these

    #32 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    ...it is possible for A graders to get more than one MB...

    That's why I listed two songs. Remember that not only do you have to make a bunch of shots to light multiball, you also have to make a bunch more different shots to light the jukebox. Most players will lucky to use the song strat once per game in a tournament. Memorize those two songs and you're good to go.

    #33 6 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    That's why I listed two songs

    Sorry I meant more than one album or more than one tour...

    Yeah like the intention of the thread was about using cheat sheets when playing a game... Never seen it done but was wondering what people thought about it..

    #34 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    I think ACDC is the only game that you may need a cheat sheet during the game since its so hard to remember which song to play depending on what album/ tour you are upto... Not sure that an mp3 player would be affective here...

    No, what I was implying is what if those headphones are going to a phone, not an MP3 player.

    It's a bit far-fetched but in a tournament like pinburgh where there are literally over 100 tournament games, almost every player runs into an unfamiliar game.

    One time I was playing with the danish pinball champion (seriously, there is one!) and he had not seen Creature since it was originally on location. He remembered nothing about it. I talked him through the shots and on his very first game he got just under a billion.

    #35 6 years ago

    lol why you surprised about a Danish pinball champ... The current IFPA world champ is Italian

    #36 6 years ago

    Well, because until the last year or so, you could count the public pins in denmark on two hands!

    It's actually seen a bit of a surge in the last year, which is really great. They formed a league. When my danish friend comes to visit we hold a special tournament for him. When he was leaving we held "Ban Danish Pinball". When he came back for a visit we held "Import Danish Pinball".

    The italian guy is frankly amazing because he only gets limited interaction with the rest of the top players. If they guy lived in one of the hot spots of the US I can't even imagine how hard he'd be dominating. Obviously a true pure talent.

    #37 6 years ago

    Yeah theres alot of talent out there that used to play pinball as well and have just stopped playing altogether as its not out there anymore... Home market is taking off but pinball aint talking off on location as much..

    #38 6 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Your playing in an event either at a home game, PAPA, Pinburgh, IFPA etc etc. The game of choice is ACDC and you are playing with 3 other people. One of the players has some "cheat sheets" which he places on either side of the game which cover the menu cards.. One sheet has the song associated with the tours and the other has the songs assoicated with the albums. When he finishes playing he takes the sheets/cards off the game.
    Is this unethical or against the rules to have strategy sheets or cards which help you learn the game whilst playing it in a tournament. I know there are applications that are allowed when playing online poker to help you and given that ACDC is so complicated I was wondering what anyone thought if this????

    We'll talk it over, but in my opinion such a cheat sheet should not be allowed. I feel this is unethical to do while playing the game, it should just be you and the game. While it's not your turn, go to freakin' town. Coaching during a turn is not allowed, so why should coaching via a cheat sheet be any different?

    #39 6 years ago

    If you're constantly cradling to try to read your sheets to determine what the next thing you should do is, then you'll get dinged on delay of game. Honestly, I've never seen a tournament game set up right where the player needs strategy that takes up two pages and can't be dumbed down to something simpler. Even if you are playing on a really complex game like LOTR or TSPP or whatever, unless the game is set up so the tournament is taking forever, you are probably going to try for two or three main goals.

    As far as I'm concerned "cheat sheets" on the game are fully allowed, but the winners aren't going to be the guys or gals usin' 'em.

    #40 6 years ago

    There really is nothing "unethical" about this. The paper isn't making the shot for them. This isn't a puzzle challenge or a trivia game show. Knowing what to shoot for, when, is only half the fight.

    You have notes and I am playing you? I say good on you. Youlh were more prepared for competitive play than I was.

    #41 6 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    We'll talk it over, but in my opinion such a cheat sheet should not be allowed. I feel this is unethical to do while playing the game, it should just be you and the game. While it's not your turn, go to freakin' town. Coaching during a turn is not allowed, so why should coaching via a cheat sheet be any different?

    I'm convinced. It does fall in the area of coaching. So, if coaching is not allowed I can see notes being excluded, too.

    #42 6 years ago

    During a tournament where a slightly finnicky Starship Troopers was involved, I did a bit of pre-game coaching. I told the other 2 competitors that if multiball starts, manually plunge those balls. The ST in question sometimes gave weak kick-outs from the plunger lane, and due to the design of the lane, it drains out. 5 minutes later the other competitors were manually plungin' and kept on trucking.

    #43 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremecium:

    I'm convinced. It does fall in the area of coaching. So, if coaching is not allowed I can see notes being excluded, too.

    I'm very much the opposite. Coaching in the sense of what is banned in pinball competition goes much further than anything notes on a scrap of paper provides. Someone standing there telling you not just what to shoot next, but giving encouragement, telling you how to adjust your game, your habits and mentality in the moment is *HUGE* compared to an emotionless sheet of paper you have to stop and look at mid-game.

    Here's one way I look at this issue: This game has a lot of similarities to golf. There are the basics of the game: how to hit a ball, what clubs to use in certain situations, how to get yourself out of certain situations = all the various universal flipper/nudge skills. The beautiful green course laid out in front of you, like different pinball machines, can either be extremely familiar or completely alien. In competition, you aren't so much playing your opponent -- you're playing the course (AKA Table). You're competing in the sense of saying you can handle the course better than your opponent, in the moment. Your opponent pulls out a piece of paper with a map of the different holes, information on wind velocity, the slopes of the green, etc, etc, etc. A piece of paper containing information that is, in the age of the Internet mind you, widely available to everybody. Golf is not purely a competition of knowledge, and neither is pinball. Your refusal to mentally prepare for the courses you are playing and having the information readily available when you need it is something your opponent's shouldn't be penalized for. Golf, like Pinball, is not purely a competition of knowledge (like game shows or trivia). It's a competition of physical performance and strategy.

    Unlike Pinball, however, Golf has caddies that coach the players anyways. In conclusion, Golf < Pinball. I think we can at least agree on that.

    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from sosage:

    Unlike Pinball, however, Golf has caddies that coach the players anyways. In conclusion, Golf sucks. I think we can at least agree on that.

    FTFY d

    #45 6 years ago

    bump

    #46 6 years ago

    I wouldn't care if the sheets are down by the lockdown bar and they look a little at them.
    The added benefit, as you can see from some replies, is it's going to piss the opponent off.
    I have played some high ranked players, and they all play diff'rently. Some people know exactly what they are doing, and take just as much time as someone studying notes.

    #47 6 years ago

    We had a cheat sheet last night for our league games. It said, "Make the shot."

    I feel like we all have enough notes available with the factory scoring notes on the apron. The rest is up to the player.

    #48 6 years ago

    In the case of AC/DC, just put the song/album/tour info cheat sheet on the backglass for all to see.
    Problem solved.
    Same could hold true for any game, If a player has a cheat sheet, tape it up for the whole class to see at the beginning of play.
    Otherwise, disallow it.

    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremecium:

    I feel like we all have enough notes available with the factory scoring notes on the apron.

    I wouldn't say that.

    #50 6 years ago

    Winning is about being prepared and hitting shots. If someone does their homework why should they be penalized.
    I would allow it.

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