(Topic ID: 109771)

Tournament directors, what's your opinion on people leaving


By soren

4 years ago



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  • 44 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by bkerins
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    #1 4 years ago

    Calling experienced tournament directors.

    In tournaments to me locally, we have recently seen three cases of people leaving the tournament halfway through and while they where still in.

    This has caused some - to an extend - heated debate amongst players. Not so much regarding the people leaving and their reason for doing so, which may be for good reasons. But the fact that they left players they eliminated looking like a fool. And for the disrespect for the tournament and the people running it.

    Another way to look at it is that they loose the next match intentionally. Throwing in a bye of their own.

    So, what would you do?

    Regarding the tournament

    a) Leaving the tournament as-is giving no-show players a technical lose for future matches.

    b) Giving the now empty spot to the player just eliminated by the no-show players, or to highest non-qualified player etc. (where applicable).

    Regarding the final standing

    a) Give final position to no-show players as would-be for actual loses.

    b) Give last place final to no-show players.

    c) Disqualify them completely from final ranking.

    A quick search through the rulebooks at PAPA did not show any clear answer (through I might have overlooked stuff). IFPA is redirecting to PAPA.

    #2 4 years ago

    I have no idea what is the official IFPA position but my recommendation is b) for the first question. Regarding final standing, it really depends on tourney format... and it also depends on the circumstances: what do you do if you are late on schedule and people have to go?

    #3 4 years ago

    It seems like the simple solution is to just give them a loss if they do not show up for a called match within X minutes.

    IMO it's better to NOT worry about...
    - whether or not this is "disrespecting" the tournament, or people
    - how this makes other people feel (or "looking like a fool")

    People have different reasons/issues that come up that may or may not be valid.
    Keep it simple, and NOT emotional -> not here for your match -> this is the consequence.

    #4 4 years ago

    I have not experienced this yet, but I would first and foremost try to figure out why people are leaving midway. Is it due to an issue with the event that can be fixed? Event going longer than expected? or just a personal issue?

    Also, I would hope they are talking to you before leaving and not just bailing.

    For the event itself, it is probably a good idea to state in your rules in advance what you will do (mental note that I need to update my online rules). I would NOT give any other previously eliminated player the vacated spot. It sucks that they were previously eliminated by someone that bailed midway, but that does not make it fair to allow anyone back in.

    I would likely DQ the person that bailed and they will get put last in the final reported roster and everyone else bumps up. The event should continue on as if they are there and anyone facing them would automatically win that specific round. I guess it does depend on your format, but most formats can deal with something like this.

    IF it is a huge impact on the rest of the event then I would make provisions that anyone bailing midway is DQ'd from future events also.

    #5 4 years ago

    I hate when it happens.

    Inevitably players knocked out by those leaving complain.

    LTG : )™

    #6 4 years ago

    I agree, that everyone would benefit if the action taken in such cases is decided and communicated before hand. Maybe now it will (locally). I guess this has taken people by surprice.

    I have actually seen this some more occations now that I think of it.

    #7 4 years ago

    If you bail **without saying anything**, you are disqualified and will be placed last at any of my tournaments. As long as you let me know what's going on, or someone else can vouch that you had to leave in a hurry or something, I can understand that crap happens and people have to leave. If you don't want to get knocked out, then play better. You lost the right to complain about what happens with that player or anyone still in when you got eliminated fairly, under the rules. IMO, the only people that might have a legitimate bitch about a player leaving is the fact that the next opponent gets a free bye they shouldn't have, and I'm not sure there's really any "fair" way to settle that at that point. Someone will get a bye that wouldn't have otherwise.

    #8 4 years ago

    I've had to bail on a tournament because I got sick. Walked outside for fresh air, threw up, and decided not to go back in.

    I don't feel bad about it either. I don't feel any obligation to finish a tournament I started. Maybe it's more about people getting butthurt over losing to someone who doesn't even care...

    #9 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I've had to bail on a tournament because I got sick. Walked outside for fresh air, threw up, and decided not to go back in.
    I don't feel bad about it either. I don't feel any obligation to finish a tournament I started. Maybe it's more about people getting butthurt over losing to someone who doesn't even care...

    You should feel a bit shitty for leaving the tourney director wondering if you are still in, looking around for you, having others look for you. Also the players that had to wait for who-knows how long, until they finally just figure you must have left.
    Leaving a tourney without letting anyone know is a dick-move!

    #10 4 years ago

    I don't see how people can complain if they have be beaten by the guy leaving. They were beaten. Period. The guy who was suppose to challenge the guy leaving should just get a free pass to the next round and thank the guy leaving for increasing his odds.

    #11 4 years ago
    Quoted from soren:

    Calling experienced tournament directors.
    In tournaments to me locally, we have recently seen three cases of people leaving the tournament halfway through and while they where still in.
    This has caused some - to an extend - heated debate amongst players. Not so much regarding the people leaving and their reason for doing so, which may be for good reasons. But the fact that they left players they eliminated looking like a fool. And for the disrespect for the tournament and the people running it.
    Another way to look at it is that they loose the next match intentionally. Throwing in a bye of their own.
    So, what would you do?
    Regarding the tournament
    a) Leaving the tournament as-is giving no-show players a technical lose for future matches.
    b) Giving the now empty spot to the player just eliminated by the no-show players, or to highest non-qualified player etc. (where applicable).
    Regarding the final standing
    a) Give final position to no-show players as would-be for actual loses.
    b) Give last place final to no-show players.
    c) Disqualify them completely from final ranking.
    A quick search through the rulebooks at PAPA did not show any clear answer (through I might have overlooked stuff). IFPA is redirecting to PAPA.

    It's a crappy situation but personally I feel you can't penalize others for people leaving. Like it or not, people earned the spot they got. If I qualify 1st and I want to go up to the game and drop my pants and just plunge the ball and play the game backwards...I earned the right to do that. No one can force anyone to play well or try hard and sometimes there are good reasons for having to leave. It's always nice to notify the tournament director, but we all know that doesn't always happen. Giving the spot of someone who earned it but doesn't want it to someone who didn't earn it, but wants it...is not right IMHO. If someone leaves, make an announcement or have a time limit rule and when they don't show, start a game for them and plunge their balls until the game is over or they show up and play themselves. It gives that person's opponent an easy match, but like I said, you can't make a person show up and try hard, they could have just as easily shown up and not tried and there is no way to police that. As for someone feeling bad about being beaten by a person who left...tough cookies. Really? That's just sad.

    #12 4 years ago

    I had this issue recently. Main tournament everyone was there that registered and stayed until the end of the tournament with the exception of one person that got a substitute ahead of time. I had no issue with that.

    The issue I had was with a side tournament where qualifying ended at 8pm. Unfortunately the main tournament ended earlier than expected; so there was a 2 hour lay-over. I wasn't going to end qualifying on the side tournament early because a lot of peole were trying to get into the top 8 for the finals. So that time stayed 8pm.

    IIRC I had about 5 people bail in between the two tournaments. Some had scores high enough to put them into the finals and others did not. Because WPPR points were awarded for all those that were in the side tournament, this is what I did. When the person left I wrote down their score on a separate piece of paper. I then removed them from the side tournament which meant others got bumped up. Once qualifying was over, the top eight moved onto a single elimination seeded bracket that determined 1st through 8th place. Then 9th through 20th place were determined by raw qualifying score after that. One person that left had the second highest qualifying score but was bumped to 9th as it was the highest spot after 8th place. The other people that left, their highest score was inserted where their score would fall with all the other qualifiers that didn't make it to the finals.

    This was the only fair thing I could think of at the time because I did not anticipate anyone leaving mid-tournament. I had to come up with a plan that was fair and within two hours as finals were to begin.

    #13 4 years ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    This was the only fair thing I could think of at the time

    I would have done the exact same thing, except that...

    Quoted from schudel5:

    the main tournament ended earlier than expected

    ...never happened to me. Tell us your secrets !

    #14 4 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    ...never happened to me. Tell us your secrets !

    I think I set the games up too hard.

    The main tournament was a Knockout! style tournament with 36 people attending. Originally announced as 3 strikes. Before we began we changed it to 4 strikes and everyone was in agreement. The main tournament actually ended up going from 2pm until 6pm (4 hours) for a 4 strikes style knockout, I was surprised it went that fast. I was really worried going from 3 to 4 strikes was going to make the tournament run too long. But some of the heavy hitters got knocked out early...it was wild!

    #15 4 years ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    I had this issue recently. Main tournament everyone was there that registered and stayed until the end of the tournament with the exception of one person that got a substitute ahead of time. I had no issue with that.
    The issue I had was with a side tournament where qualifying ended at 8pm. Unfortunately the main tournament ended earlier than expected; so there was a 2 hour lay-over. I wasn't going to end qualifying on the side tournament early because a lot of peole were trying to get into the top 8 for the finals. So that time stayed 8pm.
    IIRC I had about 5 people bail in between the two tournaments. Some had scores high enough to put them into the finals and others did not. Because WPPR points were awarded for all those that were in the side tournament, this is what I did. When the person left I wrote down their score on a separate piece of paper. I then removed them from the side tournament which meant others got bumped up. Once qualifying was over, the top eight moved onto a single elimination seeded bracket that determined 1st through 8th place. Then 9th through 20th place were determined by raw qualifying score after that. One person that left had the second highest qualifying score but was bumped to 9th as it was the highest spot after 8th place. The other people that left, their highest score was inserted where their score would fall with all the other qualifiers that didn't make it to the finals.
    This was the only fair thing I could think of at the time because I did not anticipate anyone leaving mid-tournament. I had to come up with a plan that was fair and within two hours as finals were to begin.

    I personally would NOT bump qualifying people to 9th and backfill. IMHO the right thing is to maintain what you originally stated, which I assume was 'top 8 scores qualify for a playoff'?

    If 2 out of the top 8 left then they should have been bumped to 7th and 8th place, not 9th and 10th. Run with a 6 person playoff and whoever was suppsed to playe the people that left lucks out with a bye.

    JMO on how I have dealt with that situation.

    #16 4 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I personally would NOT bump qualifying people to 9th and backfill. IMHO the right thing is to maintain what you originally stated, which I assume was 'top 8 scores qualify for a playoff'?
    If 2 out of the top 8 left then they should have been bumped to 7th and 8th place, not 9th and 10th. Run with a 6 person playoff and whoever was suppsed to playe the people that left lucks out with a bye.
    JMO on how I have dealt with that situation.

    I thought of that and about 10 other options. But the people that were there had no issues with their places getting bumped up. I may try something different next time if this happens...maybe not. There really isn't any IFPA or PAPA rules for what to do when people leave. When you're the tournament director whatever you decide (good or bad) has to stand and that's the stance I took.

    #17 4 years ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    I don't see how people can complain if they have be beaten by the guy leaving.

    Doesn't matter what happened. People will complain.

    You ever read Pinside ?

    LTG : )™

    #18 4 years ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    When you're the tournament director whatever you decide (good or bad) has to stand and that's the stance I took.

    Agreed 100% What the director says is what goes. We all make bad decisions sometimes but we learn from them and get better next time. I have tried to write out more and more over time as I like to have thinks pre-thought out and helps to remove any issue if you happen to ever be a player and director and need to remove your own 'player' biases.

    #19 4 years ago

    Real life gets in the way of tournament pinball sometimes.

    If they qualify but do not return for the bracketed head to head portion they finish in the next highest position (ie, 8 qualifiers, one no shows - they finish 9th, the person that was in ninth is now in the head to head).

    If they are in the middle a bracket and leave all further matches involving them are treated as losses.

    Knockout/Strike Out event - they are eliminated then and finish with the position of those eliminated that round.

    Pingolf - all unplayed holes (machines) get a max score.

    #20 4 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I personally would NOT bump qualifying people to 9th and backfill. IMHO the right thing is to maintain what you originally stated, which I assume was 'top 8 scores qualify for a playoff'?
    If 2 out of the top 8 left then they should have been bumped to 7th and 8th place, not 9th and 10th. Run with a 6 person playoff and whoever was suppsed to playe the people that left lucks out with a bye.
    JMO on how I have dealt with that situation.

    Couldn't agree with this more. If someone earns it and wants to abandon it, that's on them. Don't give a spot to someone who didn't earn it.

    #21 4 years ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    You should feel a bit shitty for leaving the tourney director wondering if you are still in, looking around for you, having others look for you. Also the players that had to wait for who-knows how long, until they finally just figure you must have left.
    Leaving a tourney without letting anyone know is a dick-move!

    I should have clarified that BadBrick knew I was leaving and told them for me. I still don't feel bad.

    #22 4 years ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    There really isn't any IFPA or PAPA rules for what to do when people leave. When you're the tournament director whatever you decide (good or bad) has to stand and that's the stance I took.

    I don't understand this statement... the base rules take care of this. If a person is called up for match play and they do not arrive within the allotted time, they forfeit the match. This pretty much covers any instance where a player leaves early. No bumping, no rearranging. Might annoy other players who failed to qualify, but them's the rules.

    If for some reason no shows are a problem, one option I can see is enacting a rule to simply disqualify people who leave before the end of qualifying. State in the tourney rules "Players must be present at XX o'clock (after quaifying ends) to progress to finals, otherwise qualifying position and any associated WPPRs are forfeited." Perform a roll-call at XX o'clock, disqualify no-shows and bump up people as needed to fill the brackets.

    #23 4 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    I should have clarified that BadBrick knew I was leaving and told them for me. I still don't feel bad.

    Ahhh, that's better!
    No reason to feel bad if you let the TD know.
    Shit does happen, I've had to quit a tourney before too.

    #24 4 years ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    I thought of that and about 10 other options. But the people that were there had no issues with their places getting bumped up. I may try something different next time if this happens...maybe not. There really isn't any IFPA or PAPA rules for what to do when people leave. When you're the tournament director whatever you decide (good or bad) has to stand and that's the stance I took.

    There are PAPA rules for what to do in these cases.

    "In the event a qualifying player is not available, he or she will be skipped in the ranking as if he or she had not qualified. Upon discovering at any point (before finals play or during finals play) that a player is not present, tournament officials will make a specific announcement for that player, allowing at least ten minutes but no more than twenty minutes, for that player to appear. Substitutions or late arrivals are not allowed. Any player who is missing for twenty minutes or longer, in total, will receive no further accommodations for absence or tardiness, and his or her ball will be plunged by the scorekeeper."

    In cases where players are complete no-shows, players will be "bumped up" into those positions vacated by the missing players.

    In cases where players are missing in the middle of finals, they are given an opportunity to return, then their balls are plunged.

    The PAPA Circuit Final has been using a different rule, no players are bumped into position, due to the "ladder" nature of the event it just becomes a shorter ladder.

    #25 4 years ago

    Coming from tournament organising in other games/sports:

    1. Never make it bad for a player to tell you he has to leave. He'll leave anyway, he just won't tell you. Super annoying.
    2. In elimination play, a player who has to leave loses their next match.
    3. In swiss rounds, or other arranged play, re-pair the round as if the player doesn't exist. They keep their match points/whatever, but they don't get any more as time goes on.
    4. In a cut-to-finals, if a player doesn't turn up have some rule in effect. Both variants are reasonable (add players until you have the right number/don't) but you should have it in the rules (as both IFPA and PAPA do per bkerins)
    5. If a player doesn't tell you they're leaving, feel free to be somewhat more punitive. However, their existing results should continue to exist from a tournament integrity point of view. If I beat you in the quarters and then leave, you don't get to play the semis: otherwise you can have post-match fixing and other Bad Things.
    6. Thankfully pinball doesn't have draws.

    #26 4 years ago

    Pinball does have draws, they're just really, really rare!

    #27 4 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Pinball does have draws, they're just really, really rare!

    Yakity yak.

    Compared to chess, or soccer, or many tabletop games (due to time constraints if nothing else) pinball doesn't have any draws.

    It's like (gridiron) football: yes, they happen. But you don't have to deal with it habitually.

    #28 4 years ago

    never happened to me but if it did id just act as if they were beaten. who ever they were to play next gets a bye. simple.
    But, if its a non match play head to head playoffs (as in groups of 4 papa style or pinburgh) and the playoffs were already in progress, not sure on that one.
    bowen?

    #29 4 years ago

    Thanks for all your inputs (sorry I was absent for a day or two).

    Quoted from Excalabur:

    Coming from tournament organising in other games/sports:
    1. Never make it bad for a player to tell you he has to leave. He'll leave anyway, he just won't tell you. Super annoying.
    2. In elimination play, a player who has to leave loses their next match.
    3. In swiss rounds, or other arranged play, re-pair the round as if the player doesn't exist. They keep their match points/whatever, but they don't get any more as time goes on.
    4. In a cut-to-finals, if a player doesn't turn up have some rule in effect. Both variants are reasonable (add players until you have the right number/don't) but you should have it in the rules (as both IFPA and PAPA do per bkerins)
    5. If a player doesn't tell you they're leaving, feel free to be somewhat more punitive. However, their existing results should continue to exist from a tournament integrity point of view. If I beat you in the quarters and then leave, you don't get to play the semis: otherwise you can have post-match fixing and other Bad Things.
    6. Thankfully pinball doesn't have draws.

    I believe this sounds very reasonable.

    For a qualifing-stage/finals-bracket tournament I guess the recommendation is.

    - If a player does not show up entirely.

    Try to rearrange qualification groups (when utilised) as fair as possible with as little impact as possible. And bump the player entirely from final result.

    - If a player leaves during qualification.

    Tricky in some setups. Generel recommendation of having the player technical lose remaining matches and/or note 0 score.

    - If a player leaves after qualification.

    Bump the player to second highest non-qualified position and move everybody between him and the now vacant spot up a nudge.

    - If a player leaves during bracket finals.

    Leave the bracket as-is keeping the player in. But inforce technical lose for him (plunge and let balls drain if necessary).

    #30 4 years ago
    Quoted from Excalabur:

    Yakity yak.
    Compared to chess, or soccer, or many tabletop games (due to time constraints if nothing else) pinball doesn't have any draws.
    It's like (gridiron) football: yes, they happen. But you don't have to deal with it habitually.

    True, but rules must exist to handle draws. There has been at least one draw at the Pinburgh tournament each of the last four years.

    #31 4 years ago
    Quoted from silver_spinner:

    never happened to me but if it did id just act as if they were beaten. who ever they were to play next gets a bye. simple.
    But, if its a non match play head to head playoffs (as in groups of 4 papa style or pinburgh) and the playoffs were already in progress, not sure on that one.
    bowen?

    The playoffs continue and the bailing player competes very poorly.

    #32 4 years ago

    right bowen, but what about AFTER that round when groups are suppose to have 4 players. does a group just play with 3 players and use a different point system?

    #33 4 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Pinball does have draws, they're just really, really rare!

    My avatar is a draw with my brother-in-law on EBD (happened merely 2 weeks after asking bkerins about them at Pinburgh)
    (bigger version: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bvz5StDCYAEnW0C.jpg)

    Still don't know how points/victories are awarded in a 4 player match in Pinburgh when 2 players have a draw? (just out of curiousity, I don't think I'll do this once more in my lifetime)

    #34 4 years ago

    One ball/game tiebreaker?

    #35 4 years ago
    Quoted from Replay:

    Real life gets in the way of tournament pinball sometimes.
    Word

    #36 4 years ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    One ball/game tiebreaker?

    You're right. I checked on papa.org (I was lazy for not having done this before), and according to the official ruleset for Pinburgh: "Exact score ties between two or more players will be resolved with a one-ball playoff on the same game."

    #37 4 years ago
    Quoted from silver_spinner:

    right bowen, but what about AFTER that round when groups are suppose to have 4 players. does a group just play with 3 players and use a different point system?

    Nope, play on. This is one reason to use the "best 2 advance from each group" instead of "best N advance to next round". One group would play with 3 and the other with 4, as though the departed player decided to show up and stink.

    Rossz: the ties that I know about at Pinburgh have been on Fireball, Gay 90s, Coney Island, and Alien Poker. There may have been others! There has also been at least one game where more than one player got disqualified for playing out of turn or tilting through ... those players then also had to play the one-ball tiebreaker.

    #38 4 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    True, but rules must exist to handle draws. There has been at least one draw at the Pinburgh tournament each of the last four years.

    Of course, yes. As long as there's a theoretical chance of such a thing happening you have to have a rule for it. I believe the Olympics mints extra medals of various kinds for this eventuality: there was a tie to within the margin for error in one race, so two golds were awarded.

    Quoted from metallik:

    One ball/game tiebreaker?

    That being said, this slightly surprises me. Bkerins: why not just chop the point in half and move on? (Software?)

    #39 4 years ago

    The nature of match-play is to settle wins, I guess. In a bracket/final scenario you will have to find a single player taking the cake.

    Paying half point splits to players would look funny in the overall standing. Draws are rare. And it will be even more rare to see that the single point difference/half point even split points for those two players making a draw will matter when it comes to division split and qualification at Pinburgh.

    #40 4 years ago

    I think it is fine that this thread has turned towards draws in pinball. Let me push it further by saying, that draws will be more likely when having score caps on games.

    Score caps was touched briefly in one of the latest PAPA live shows. I have played at tournaments where games had score caps during a qualification, where cap'ed scores was treated as same score and points where split (100 for best score, 95 for second best score was made 97,5 for each in case of two players hitting the limit).

    I believe it is a brilliant idea. Helps to maintain a timetable for the event, which is in everybodys interest.

    During qualification, players hitting the limit are very likely to qualify regardless they may have to split they top performance with somebody else. Being the fact that they by hitting the limit they must be a fairly decent player.

    During match play, players may move to a new machine and have a rematch.

    In one tournament I attended I remember a 60M cap on Cirqus Voltaire. Which is actually a pretty decent achievement.

    #41 4 years ago

    Just keep it simple and don't overthink it so much. As Bowen basically said, if someone doesn't show up, they effectively "are there and place last". So if it is a head-to-head match, they lose and the other player basically wins by forfeit. If a 4 player match with 2 advancing, the player that didn't show is 4th. Trying to craft things any differently will just add more issues and inconsistencies, especially with WPPRs. Unless you spell out every scenario beforehand in the rules (NO longer simple), then you may inadvertently create all types of negative perceptions of a lack of objectivity or fairness. If the person decides not to play then they had the prerogative to forfeit, and their lucky opponent gets the benefit. But that is the proper placement of that benefit, not other players that have already lost or players that did not qualify.

    Also, if someone forfeits halfway through, they should NOT be dropped to the bottom of the final standings because they already EARNED the wins they achieved. Doing anything else would then grant an UNEARNED benefit to one or more players that lost to that player. Don't try to re-adjust things. It's just the nature of tournaments. It happens and has a simple result - that player loses the match they miss.

    #42 4 years ago

    Having said that, there may be specific exceptions, like the 4 day World Championships (PAPA) where hundreds of players are competing to get into the playoffs. But that would only happen BEFORE the start of the playoffs, not at any other stage of the playoffs.

    #43 4 years ago

    I'm glad Wolfmarsh didn't go back in and smear vomit all over the flipper-buttons. Thank you, Wolfmarsh.

    #44 4 years ago
    Quoted from Excalabur:

    Of course, yes. As long as there's a theoretical chance of such a thing happening you have to have a rule for it. I believe the Olympics mints extra medals of various kinds for this eventuality: there was a tie to within the margin for error in one race, so two golds were awarded.

    That being said, this slightly surprises me. Bkerins: why not just chop the point in half and move on? (Software?)

    Yes, software to account for ties is more difficult to write, so the rules settle the tie with the one-ball tiebreaker.

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