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(Topic ID: 272008)

Ni-Wumpf isn't responsive to TILTING?


By JethroP

3 months ago



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  • 94 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 86 days ago by KenLayton
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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Post #75 Quench’s solution worked. Posted by JethroP (3 months ago)

Post #85 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by JethroP (3 months ago)


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#1 3 months ago

Just got TOTEM working after years in storage. Gottlieb System 1 with the older, original Ni-Wumpf MPU. Game plays great except that the tilt is very unresponsive. The game will tilt, but it takes a hell of a smash to get it to trigger. If you bang the bob into the brass ring it will not tilt. If you bang it repeatedly it will tilt. If you push the bob into the ring by hand it will tilt. But in normal game play, if the bob hits the brass ring (quickly) it will not tilt. All the connections between playfield and MPU are good and clean. I disassembled the plumb bob, brass ring, and rod. Cleaned and polished all the bare metal. Even replaced the bob will a brand new one. Same results.

I read another post where OP had exact same problem. He thought the Ni-Wumpf is not sensitive enough, or doesn't strobe fast enough to pickup the tilt. He was thinking to install a capacitor like Bally does on switches. Not sure what he ended up doing. Results were never posted on the site.

I emailed Ni-Wumpf wondering if there was a software update or sensitivity adjustment but was told "no". Not their problem.

Anybody ever had this problem or know a solution?

#2 3 months ago

What about other switches in the switch matrix that are in the same row or column as the tilt switch? Are all of those switches working correctly with high sensitivity?

#3 3 months ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

What about other switches in the switch matrix that are in the same row or column as the tilt switch? Are all of those switches working correctly with high sensitivity?

Well, now that you mention it, I have noticed that one or two of the other switches in the common strobe line are intermittent. What should I look for or test?

#4 3 months ago

See if all the unresponsive switches are all going into a common PIA chip on the MPU. If so that PIA could be on it's last legs.

Cut the PIA out and install new PIA in a socket.

#5 3 months ago

FWIW, I noticed this, too.

I switched to a Pascal Pi-1 X4 and the issue disappeared.

#6 3 months ago

Not sure if the schematic for the board you have is the same, but found the Mark II online.

In that schematic it would be either one of Z14, Z15, or Z16 that could use changing. Or possibly the pull up / down resistors associated with those chips. Test those resistors to see if they are in spec and swap any out of spec ones then move on to swapping chips if needed.

#7 3 months ago

This is a known problem on NiWumpf and also to a slightly lesser extent on Pascal boards. Not much you can do about it. On some of the older games there is a second tilt switch on the playfield. This is not the slam tilt. It is wired to the same spot in the matrix and it can add some extra wire and resistance to the circuit making tilt less responsive.

You can set the switch on the playfield really tight and it will make up for the plumb bob a little bit. Problem is that switch is a little prone to tilting through to the next ball or player.

#8 3 months ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

Not sure if the schematic for the board you have is the same, but found the Mark II online.

It is not the same. I have the original Ni-Wumpf. The manual is also available online.

Quoted from Spybryon:

See if all the unresponsive switches are all going into a common PIA chip on the MPU.

Is it the PIA I should be concerned about? The switches input to the U1, a demultiplexer, which according to the schematic is a 74156, but I have a 74LS156. I don't understand IC circuitry much, but comparing these two chip data sheets, the 74SL156 appears to be 30% slower than the 74156. Could this be a problem? If someone understands these chips better, could you look at the specs and comment?

#9 3 months ago

OK, found the schematic for the older board.

Correct, U1 is the chip that deals with the switch input strobes.

Have you identified that all the unresponsive switches are on a particular input Y0-Y5 ?

Test and or replace SIP2 first since that's a cheaper part, and could cause switch detection issues if it goes out of spec.

Perhaps the problem is simply cracked solder joints on SIP2, U1, or the switch input plug. Could start by reflowing the solder on those.

Next test and or replace U1.

Not sure about the replacement 74LS156 you mentioned, being equivalent or not, I'd need to research that or someone can comment.

#10 3 months ago

What wires on the game does J7 pins 10-17 connect to? Switch related wires or something else?

#11 3 months ago

U15 is the PIA chip which also might be marginal, and need replacing.

Wonder if this is a design issue though, as others have mentioned. What does NiWump say if you ask them that? http://www.ni-wumpf.com/contact.html

#12 3 months ago

Found even more troubleshooting info on their website:

"Switches
Remarkably, except for the technician sticking a screwdriver into the wrong place underneath the playfield, the only place the switches consistently get shorted, is on the front door, where there is a lot of well-grounded metal for the coin switches to get twisted up on. If your self-test button stops working, this is a good place to start looking for bent metal shorted to the door. You're also going to want to check beneath the playfield where bare metal of the playfield GI wiring may become tangled with the switch-matrix wiring. And lastly, be aware that the connectors to the CPU from the playfield and the front door may have become brittle and/or broken inside the nylon shell of the connector - look carefully there.

If something does get through to the CPU, it is going to wind up damaging the switch strobes of U1 (a 74156) on the original System 1 board, Z14 on the new board, or Z19 on the System 80 board. It is also possible to damage the return lines on the System 1 board through U2, only by mis-wiring, or shorting voltage to the switch matrix - and this type of damage can also affect U15 of the board - both of which are parts from Ni-Wumpf. To date, the System 80 return logic is too over-designed to show where it may get affected in the future!"

#13 3 months ago

i had something happen on my joker poker that tilting would cause the board to reset. Turned out, that on the tilt mech, with the rolling ball. Someone swapped the slide connectors, from the leaf to the side end. Maybe one of your slide connectors came off, or not connected well or in the wrong order.

#14 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

schematic is a 74156, but I have a 74LS156

Probably 74LS156 is a suitable replacement, it seems that it's the same thing but lower power consumption.

#15 3 months ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

Wonder if this is a design issue though, as others have mentioned. What does NiWump say if you ask them that?

First time I mentioned this to Ni-Wumpf (a couple weeks ago), the reply was they were not aware of this problem. Then after I did more research on the internet, Pinside, Aussie Pinball, etc., I found others with the exact same problem, and it had been reported to Ni-Wumpf. So I know they are aware of this problem. I sent an email and also phone call last week. I have sadly gotten no reply from them. I guess their position is that it is not their problem. Also, no one has reported a solution to the problem other than replace the Ni-wumpf with the original Gottlieb or a Pascal board.

I might also mention that this Ni-Wumpf was in the project when I purchased it. It wasn't working, so I sent to them for repair. I received it back a couple weeks ago, installed, and that's when I learned how the tilt was functioning.

Prior to sending the board to them I talked to them. They believed the U1 was defective and told me the 74LS156 was a suitable replacement for the 74156. That's what I did, but still had the problem so sent off the board. They said my work replacing U1 was fine, but that they found U2 also to be bad and replaced it. That's all they did, and the board came back and worked as I stated above.

Quoted from Spybryon:

What wires on the game does J7 pins 10-17 connect to? Switch related wires or something else?

See attachment

Totem Matrix.pdf
#16 3 months ago
Quoted from Spybryon:

U15 is the PIA chip which also might be marginal, and need replacing.

Maybe, but I don't want to start replacing parts unnecessarily.

Quoted from Spybryon:

Test and or replace SIP2 first since that's a cheaper part, and could cause switch detection issues if it goes out of spec.

SIP2 tested good, in spec. Found something interesting though. SIP4 in the Ni-Wumpf parts list is shown same as SIP2. But look at the picture. It looks different, and all resistors in SIP4 test 0.9K Ohm. Hmmm. What's going on here? Maybe Ni-Wumpf can explain if they ever call me back.

IMG_5358 (resized).JPG
#17 3 months ago

I'd say to try wiring in a .05 uf or .047 uf @ 50v ceramic disc capacitor across the tilt bob just like Bally did. This should give quick switch closures a longer pulse to the cpu board.

#18 3 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

This is a known problem on NiWumpf and also to a slightly lesser extent on Pascal boards. Not much you can do about it. On some of the older games there is a second tilt switch on the playfield. This is not the slam tilt. It is wired to the same spot in the matrix and it can add some extra wire and resistance to the circuit making tilt less responsive.
You can set the switch on the playfield really tight and it will make up for the plumb bob a little bit. Problem is that switch is a little prone to tilting through to the next ball or player.

I wonder if removing the wiring to the playfield tilt would help the sensitivity a bit? I know on my countdown sometimes it's sensitive like I have it set, and sometimes you can walk the machine all over the place. I haven't really thought about even using playfield tilts as part of my tilt tuning, I usually just bend them out of the way and adjust the plumb bob as I didn't consider the PF tilt as being for anything other than hitting the PF. I'll add this to my list of things to try.

Quoted from KenLayton:

I'd say to try wiring in a .05 uf or .047 uf @ 50v ceramic disc capacitor across the tilt bob just like Bally did. This should give quick switch closures a longer pulse to the cpu board.

Didn't know that would work on GTB games (I know it doesn't on WMS) - I'll try that one too. (Well, I'll add it to the list of things to do, anyway!)

#19 3 months ago

I had a Genie with Niwumpf and could never get the tilt to work.

#20 3 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

I wonder if removing the wiring to the playfield tilt would help the sensitivity a bit? I know on my countdown sometimes it's sensitive like I have it set, and sometimes you can walk the machine all over the place.

In my Joker Poker with Pascal all in one board, I ran a parallel wire up to the CPU and it didn't help. You could move the machine to where you could hear the tilt banging back and forth and nothing. I tried everything including an offboard switch relay circuit. I finally got it working by installing an electronic tilt board. It's a prototype and as far as I know they are not for sale yet. It does work great, I have the plumb bob disconnected and calibrate the tilt now with an app on my phone.

Quoted from chuckwurt:

I had a Genie with Niwumpf and could never get the tilt to work.

I remember seeing a Genie with Niwumpf in the Finals of a tournament. It was surrealistic. All four players were dancing with that machine and it would not tilt.

Quoted from JethroP:

So I know they are aware of this problem.

I spoke with the lead tech last year when I was prepping a Sinbad for a big tournament. They are definitely aware of the problem. The best solution at this point is rubber footies, and tight leg bolts to ensure the game is basically bolted to the floor.

#21 3 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

I remember seeing a Genie with Niwumpf in the Finals of a tournament. It was surrealistic. All four players were dancing with that machine and it would not tilt.

Yeah I put rubber feet on all four legs and still it was a joke for tournaments. Only used it a couple times.

#22 3 months ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

I'd say to try wiring in a .05 uf or .047 uf @ 50v ceramic disc capacitor across the tilt bob just like Bally did. This should give quick switch closures a longer pulse to the cpu board.

I tried that. On another website that was suggested and someone said it wouldn't work because the circuit was DC. Didn't make sense to me, but I tried it anyway. Didn't help.

Quoted from slochar:

I wonder if removing the wiring to the playfield tilt would help the sensitivity a bit?

Might be on to something here, but I don't understand why. If I flick the tilt bob into the brass ring (everything is super clean), nothing unless it's a massive flick. But if I flick the playfield switch, even lightly, it tilts. I don't see anything in the circuit/switch matrix that explains the difference. I've also checked resistance on all wiring and through connector plugs and there isn't any.

#23 3 months ago

Pretty annoying that this issue has been brought up to Ni-Wumpf many times and they have not resolved it. More disturbing is that I was told they were not aware of it, and I believe the guy (I'll leave him unnamed), is the same tech that has been doing the repairs for a long time.

#24 3 months ago

I just picked up the same game nearby (San Lorenzo) and it has the same board. I am working through a broken power supply at the moment so who knows what issues Ill find once the Ni-Wumpf boots.

#25 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

But look at the picture. It looks different, and all resistors in SIP4 test 0.9K Ohm.

Any cold solder joints on SIP4? Pin 4 looks suspicious in the picture.

#26 3 months ago

I'm going to reflow suspect cold solder joints later today. Meanwhile, take a look at the switch matrix. Is there any reason why the play board tilt switch should be any more or less sensitive than the tilt panel switch? See full switch matrix in post #15.

marked up -1 (resized).jpg
#27 3 months ago

It might end up being more sensitive because the playfield tilt is a gold flashed contact switch that the matrix was really designed to detect. The plumb bob tilt meanwhile has to overcome the resistance of the tilt bob, and whatever the ring is made out of. (Brass?)

If I get to it today I'm going to try adjusting the underplayfield one to see if I can get a good consistent result for tilting. I thought about the electronic one referenced earlier to fix this issue too when they were being prototyped - I guess they haven't come out yet?

Not a huge priority, but I do like my game to actually tilt when you go over the line with them (most people say I might have them too sensitive, but it does make you a much better nudger when they are tight)

#28 3 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

Not a huge priority, but I do like my game to actually tilt when you go over the line with them (most people say I might have them too sensitive, but it does make you a much better nudger when they are tight)

I totally agree. I like my games to tilt so they don't get bashed. I just like my games to be 100% working as designed.

Other games overcome the resistance of the tilt bob and brass ring to tilt consistently. Why? I also soldered a wire to the rod and connected to the ground (like Bally tilt assembly) to eliminate any extra resistance. Didn't work any better. And I cleaned once again the brass ring. The bob weight is brand new and clean. No difference. Heck, in all my other games dating back to the 60's with old cruddy tilt bobs and brass rings I've never had an issue with the slightest nudge not causing a tilt -- as it should.

And why won't a capacitor across the tilt switch cure the problem?

#29 3 months ago

See attached drawing. Is this part of the problem? The tilt bob is the switch on the bottom right, shown on front door. It strobes from J7, but returns on J6. Every other switch strobes and returns from the same J number. Could it be a timing/pulsing issue that it is not strobing and returning from same circuit?

Additionally, I cannot find A1J6 pins anywhere on the Ni-Wumpf schematic. The tilt bob strobes and returns from A1J6-3 and A1J6-6. Where are these on the schematic?

Screen Shot 2020-07-05 at 8.59.20 AM (resized).png
#30 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Additionally, I cannot find A1J6 pins anywhere on the Ni-Wumpf schematic. The tilt bob strobes and returns from A1J6-3 and A1J6-6. Where are these on the schematic?

There are some signals that go through both J6 and J7 if you look at the original manual. This probably helped keep the harnessing simple or something. Either way they all end up at the same place on the board.
20200705_134851 (resized).jpg

#31 3 months ago

Reflowed solder joints. No help.

#32 3 months ago

Can anyone explain why a capacitor across the bob won’t help?

#33 3 months ago

I wonder if it has anything to do with the sheer mass of metal the signal has to pass through in the tilt bob, and the Ni-Wumpf isn't pulsing "hard" enough to overcome the resistance? I'm obviously no electrical engineer.

#34 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Can anyone explain why a capacitor across the bob won’t help?

A capacitor helps make a marginal switch that is intermittent a little more reliable by stretching out the pulse. In this case the switch contact is simply too fast. A capacitor might help a little bit, but I didn't see it in my test. I suppose it might make a game tilt twice out of a thousand hits instead of once haha.

Before I got the electronic tilt in my Joker Poker, I was seriously considering adapting a relay circuit from an EM into the game. I'm also going to remind people that I have a Pascal board in this game and it doesn't work at all with the plumb bob. I've tried a Niwumpf in this game and it doesn't work either.

#35 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

Can anyone explain why a capacitor across the bob won’t help?

Could be because Gottlieb uses a different processor chip than other manufacturers.

Also, perhaps we need to try a different type of capacitor: a "non-polarized" electrolytic. Maybe something like any of these values:

1 uf @ 25 volts
2.2 uf @ 25 volts
4.7 uf @ 25 volts
10 uf @ 25 volts
22 uf @ 25 volts

You get the idea. Start with the smallest value first (connected across the plumb bob tilt) and try it. These work in dc circuits and should tretch the pulse of the switch closure.

#36 3 months ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

a "non-polarized" electrolytic.

I've got some polarized 2.2 uf electrolytics on the shelf. Could I try one of them, connected with polarity in the "correct" direction? If so, which direction?

#37 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

I've got some polarized 2.2 uf electrolytics on the shelf. Could I try one of them, connected with polarity in the "correct" direction? If so, which direction?

Yes, if you connect the negative side to the return wire (I think it's Return 0).

#38 3 months ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Yes, if you connect the negative side to the return wire

I tried a 1uF, and also 2.2uF. Neither one made any difference. I could only get the game to tilt if I REPEATEDLY NUDGED (like HARD), the game, or manually pushed the bob into the brass ring. I don't get it. Never had this problem with any other game....Bally, Williams, or even my Gottlieb's. Only this game with the Ni-Wumpf.

BTW, my email and phone calls to Ni-Wumpf tech support are still unanswered.

If it's not a Ni-Wumpf design issue, I appologize for kind of putting them down. But from all that I have found scouring the internet regarding this issue, it is in fact an issue with their board. I would like to find a simple solution to this issue.

#39 3 months ago

Can you post a picture of the strobe switch diodes in the cabinet?

#40 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

If it's not a Ni-Wumpf design issue, I appologize for kind of putting them down. But from all that I have found scouring the internet regarding this issue, it is in fact an issue with their board.

Whatever this ends up being, it's a design deficiency with the Pascal boards as well, because I don't have Niwumpf's in my 2 system 1 games - I forget which one has the issue most of the time I think it's countdown, the joker poker seems to be ok.

Now that I think of it, I think zacaj has an issue with his Genie, where it tilts and sometimes it doesn't, which I definitely experienced there, and he's got the LISY board in his! Maybe there's some subtlety with the original gottlieb boards that the aftermarket boards are missing when reading the tilt bob area?

I'm off for a couple days so maybe I'll stick the scope on it and see what's going on. Also I'm curious on the switch scanning speed - didn't see it listed in the service manual. I thought the processor on system 1 was much slower than others, but it's a completely different design so that might not matter in relation to switch scanning speed.

I think a purpose built circuit could be created to fix this.

#41 3 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you post a picture of the strobe switch diodes in the cabinet?

As I recall, the diode on the far left is the one in the tilt bob circuit. It tested same as all the others.

IMG_5384 (resized).JPG
#42 3 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

As I recall, the diode on the far left is the one in the tilt bob circuit. It tested same as all the others.

That pic looks like it's under the playfield.
The diodes I'm interested in are at the bottom of the cabinet. Do you by chance have any 1N5819 diodes?

Is there a schematic available for the Ni-Wumpf board?

#43 3 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

The diodes I'm interested in are at the bottom of the cabinet. Do you by chance have any 1N5819 diodes?

Here are the diodes at bottom of cabinet. No don't have any 1N5819 diodes.
IMG_5386 (resized).JPG

#44 3 months ago

Ni-Wumpf schematic at end of manual:

niwumpf.pdf
#45 3 months ago

Try a 1N4148 diode.

#46 3 months ago

on my machine, Joker Poker, there isn't a diode in the bottom of the cabinet that is in circuit with the tilt bob. The only one is the one under the PF that is also in circuit with the under playfield tilt.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/home-for-the-gottlieb-sys1-sys-80b-guys-yep-i-guess-it-a-club/page/73#post-5638843
here is were i posted the pics of mine a few months ago.

#47 3 months ago
Quoted from Insane:

there isn't a diode in the bottom of the cabinet that is in circuit with the tilt bob.

Well that probably explains why a capacitor across the tilt switch doesn't have the desired effect here. The capacitor is never able to charge to an open switch state because there's no diode to block it from discharging when the strobe signal releases.

jethrop try adding your capacitor on the tilt mech again, but this time add a diode - I'm guessing it needs to go to the rod side of the tilt plump bob with the banded side of the diode connected to the wire side (non banded to the rod side).

#48 3 months ago

ok I measured the strobe speed on a pascal board anyway - it goes between 60 hz and 120 hz for the tilt rod/ring, and regular switches on the playfield (inlane switch) it's faster, which I did not expect. Those are between 90-100 and 180. There's a LOT of noise on these signals.

Of course, both machines are tilting 'fine' now. They do not seem consistent though. I did notice that at some point I replaced with new parts (bally style) the tilt mech on the joker poker so everything is nice, new, and shiny. Countdown I just cleaned the original parts.

I still wonder if you do a voltage shift from 5 volts to 12 volts or even higher, if you could get consistent results. Probably best at that point to just get the electronic tilt mech.

Arcade owner will check out some tilts on his machines (they're all pascals') on wednesday if he remembers.

#49 3 months ago
Quoted from Insane:

on my machine, Joker Poker, there isn't a diode in the bottom of the cabinet that is in circuit with the tilt bob. The only one is the one under the PF that is also in circuit with the under playfield tilt.

Mine too. That's why the first picture I sent were the diodes under the playfield, but then Quench asked for the ones on the bottom board.

Quoted from Quench:

try adding your capacitor on the tilt mech again, but this time add a diode

I tried this. No change. I even reversed the diode. That caused the tilt to not work at all.

#50 3 months ago

I did get a call from Ni-Wumpf tech support this afternoon. He stated that a capacitor would not help. Also stated that the issue is due to the low power (voltage?) through the graphite bob...not enough voltage drop for the MPU to pick up. I think I understood that correctly. The circuit is really designed for the gold flash contacts. He said it may help to use a Stern metal bob instead of the graphite one.

With this additional bit of information, can the experts following thread this come up with an inexpensive fix?

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