(Topic ID: 291282)

Attempting a full restore of an old Ice-Revue

By mark532011

3 years ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Xdetroit
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There are 267 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 6.
#101 2 years ago

Since you're starting over, I'd go a little deeper and a bit more greenish on the aqua color. It looked a bit too light on your first attempt, and too blue IMHO.

#102 2 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Since you're starting over, I'd go a little deeper and a bit more greenish on the aqua color. It looked a bit too light on your first attempt, and too blue IMHO.

Color matching is so hard for me especially because I have problems telling blue and purple apart. Its scientifically proven women have better color recognition. So, I always get my wife to check my color matching.

#103 2 years ago
Quoted from edward472:

Color matching is so hard for me especially because I have problems telling blue and purple apart. Its scientifically proven women have better color recognition. So, I always get my wife to check my color matching.

True, if you have no reference. But you should be able to paint a swatch on a piece of card stock, place it next to the original, observe the contrast, and adjust as needed. In the case of this game, I'd match it to the aqua on the backglass, since all of the original playfield paint is gone. Acrylic paint dries darker than when wet, so that's something to keep in mind.

#104 2 years ago

I've actually gone with a very light blue. I originally was thinking of a "whiteout edition" but that doesn't work as you cannot see the white lines.

#105 2 years ago

the light blue did not come out too good. Lots of bleeding as you can see in the pics. This is the same problem I have had since the beginning, the mask looks good while on the playfield and I am doing light coats but I still get bleed everywhere.

I am thinking my issue might be that the white paint is a rough surface that facilitates bleeding. I think I may have to put a couple of coats of clear on top and do a light sanding with 600 to get a surface that won't bleed.

Sorry for the dim pictures, I used a 1000 lumen flashlight to try and get a good sharp image that could be zoomed in on and it worked but apparently the auto-setting dimmed it out a bit.

I also screwed up and left the paint mask OFF the inserts... sigh, you can see I used my fingernail to scrape off some paint in the pic. I spent considerable time scraping with a square knife to try and get the paint off....

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#106 2 years ago

In this one case you can cheat. After you mask, shoot a thin layer of the same white again. If the white bleeds it will bleed onto white, so doesn’t matter. Let this dry, then shoot your blue. Razor sharp lines!

I do this trick at home when I paint baseboards too.

#107 2 years ago

I have resigned myself that things are not going to go as well as I envisioned. The problem continues to be accurately syncing up the layers. I think if I EVER do this again, I will build some kind of frame to hold the film layers in exactly the right spot. I don't think the problem is the cutting of the film by the Cameo, it is the placing of the film on the table. It is also the edges and bleed.

I have done the blue and peach layers. They came out as well as expected. Next up is red layer. Once all the colors are in place, I plan to add a layer of clear to smooth it out before putting the black edges in to try and get good edges as its the top layer.

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#108 2 years ago

May I suggest to not do such large areas with a single mask. When I do mine its always smaller more manageable masks. Only do what the desktop cutter can easily cut (about 8.5" x 11" max)

#109 2 years ago

I'm just going to share a few things.....I am not criticizing or bashing.

Before you even start with paint the clear you shoot over the bare wood has to be applied, sanded , applied and sanded until you get a smooth surface. Any dips or craters will cause paint to leak under the edge of the mask.

I know its recommended to start with white but I don't feel that way at all. White is easily contaminated buy adjacent colours rubbing or smearing. Even if you apply white and clear over it the sanding marks in the white can hold other colours so at the very end of the project you have to end up doing the white areas all over again. If it was me i would do that dark blue area as one shot and then go back later after the blue is locked in and then do separate masks for the white areas. Same with the images of the people, all light blue then separate masks for the people in white and then build on top of that.

You can layer colours. Don't worry if you have a dark colour and still need to apply a lighter colour over it. White can look white over dark colours easily. I mix primers for each colour, the primers can be from white to grey to tinted. The primer colour can and will affect the pop of the colour being applied and its a easy way to get custom colours without actually having to do a colour mix.

Painting is a multi level application process. I see almost every mask when removed leaves you with a raised edge. Airbrush with light coats and build up the colour. When the mask is removed you should hardly even feel a raised edge. Spray it light let it dry for a few min and repeat over and over. At times its 4 layers at times it more.

Don't leave the mask on overnight. I have found if i do walk away and i get distracted and come back the next day something depending on the mask the adhesive will stay behind. Paint , wait, and peel after the last layer is dry. A hair dryer from a distance can help the paint dry between thin coats.

#110 2 years ago

slow progress is being made. The yellow layer came out well and the red looks really good. I have a couple of detail areas yet to do, the center circles will be done with a separate mask to ensure they look good and the Gottlieb logo at the bottom. Other than that, the 1st layers will be done, then comes some repainting of the blue (which is pretty bad) and the peach (which is worse) before clear and the final black layer.yellow layeryellow layerred layerred layer

1 week later
#111 2 years ago

I spotted an image of the Ice Revue on the Internet today and I was marveling at just how beautiful and perfect the dancer was and compared it against my current version.reference playfieldreference playfieldmy current attemptmy current attempt

I had planned to clean up the art but It feels like I am just spinning my wheels and if I was being realistic, I just don't think I will ever get the kind of beautiful clean lines of the original. I am in kind of a unique situation in that I have a full-scale graphic of the playfield all finished, I should be able to use it somehow so I started looking at alternatives.

The original was silkscreened onto wood, so I brought the playfield and went down to my local t-shirt silkscreening shop and talked to them about it. They said they could do it for about $150 - approximately $80 for a large sized fine-grained screen and the labor.

But they also talked about heat-pressing the image onto the wood instead - they could get the graphic printed onto a heat-press mylar and stick it onto the wood. We tried it with a sample they had but the heat-press would not consistently iron on the graphic.

After more discussion the idea of a stick-on graphic came up. Its cheaper and since the playfield doesn't get any warpage or pressure along the edge we thought it might work ok.

They recommended PrintMoz.com and I contacted them and explained what I was trying to do. They recommended a "Custom Decal" which is a 3.4mil graphic printed on sticky mylar. They said a clearcoat will not affect it.

I purchased a 1/2 sized version (9x17) to see how it looks and to try out a clearcoat on it. Cost was $5.83 although shipping added a bunch to it.

It arrived today and looks pretty good, the colors are a bit darker than I would like so I will lighten them up in the original when I order the fullsize. Now to see how it looks on wood.my 1/2 size originalmy 1/2 size original

#112 2 years ago

Additional Info - I have a set of hole punches so part of this will be to see how well I can punch out the holes for where all the lights go.

#113 2 years ago

A vinyl cutter should be able to cut insert holes automatically (with a suitable cut file of course). See if the print shop can do cut & print.

#114 2 years ago

Update. The printer answered my question and can print at "ultra quality" if I desire, so that should solve the stairstepping issue.

Thanks dr_nybble for the info. I have posted to them if they can punch the holes.

The mini-playfield stuck very nicely to the sample piece of wood and does not appear to be curling up or anything. It shows every bump in the wood though so I will have to be careful with the final product. I will add several layers of clear tomorrow and see how it comes out.

Its kinda cool looking - I wonder if I can stick it over a piece of translucent plastic, put a light behind and make a wall picture out of it. Has anyone done that?

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#115 2 years ago

Things have not gone well. After sticking it onto the wood and having it stick all night with no trouble, I went ahead and sprayed some clear. I just used rattle-can clear, not the expensive Spraymax.

I sprayed a couple of very light coats about 10 minutes apart and all seemed well, but the 3rd coat must have been a little too thick as it immediately started to pucker up.... I remember some info about triple-thick on backglass and using saran wrap to push it down, so I am trying it - saran wrap on the fresh clear and a weight on top.. we will see if its fixed or totally destroyed tomorrow.

Now I am thinking it may not be possible to spray coats on a full sized playfield that are so thin they will not pucker the mylar. Maybe one coat per hour?

I wonder how much a full-sized sheet of mylar is, perhaps I don't need clear at all - my gut tells me my chance of success using clear is low.

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#116 2 years ago

I’d reckon you may get better results if you first establish a smooth layer of clear underneath (lightly scuffed for adhesion) before sticking it down and clearing over it?

#117 2 years ago

Today I took some pictures of the game at the Pinball Hall of Fame at its new location in Vegas. Let me know if they would be helpful.

#118 2 years ago
Quoted from OldHockeyGuy:

Today I took some pictures of the game at the Pinball Hall of Fame at its new location in Vegas. Let me know if they would be helpful.

Hey, I was there yesterday too!

#119 2 years ago
Quoted from johninc:

Hey, I was there yesterday too!

It is in a process of becoming, with lots of machines in need of repair, but so exciting to see so many games intact and ready to be restored for our playing pleasure. Any Gottlieb EM fan would be in Heaven. I took lots of pictures. The cards on the machines are funny and tell fun little stories about the games.

#120 2 years ago

I'm very impressed by your ability to keep at it. I probably would have put it off for a while by now or given up. I hope your new process works out and you can get this done so you're happy with it.

#121 2 years ago

Thanks for following along with me guys. I haven’t posted much as I am in a bit of a waiting pattern. The printshop will accept a cut file which will automatically cut out the holes and edges. My local screen-printing shop agreed to make the file and now I am checking with the print shop to make sure it is what they need.

I am also evaluating using a full-size piece of clear Mylar over the top of the whole thing. Advantages are that I don’t have to worry about any paint-related issues. However I don’t know how well it will turn out.

FYI. For future readers, The Saran Wrap on the test piece did not work at all, it glued itself on and ruined it completely

#122 2 years ago

While I am waiting on things for the playfield to get finished up. I decided to start on the rest of the machine. The first step is to get the main board out and the cabinet stripped. Including the delicate job of trying to get the side rails out without getting too scratched up. Its just about stripped bare, and its not in too bad a shape. The cabinet is all scratched up but the wood itself is pretty good. I don't see any major structural repairs to be done.

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#123 2 years ago

Damn. I'd love to have that original cabinet. Aside from the face on the backbox, it's not bad. I prefer leaving a decent original original! I have one that's much more of a repaint candidate than yours. They're only original once!

#124 2 years ago

I gotta agree JR, too many people jump to a repaint when a light cleaning is all it needs and still retains it character.

#125 2 years ago
Quoted from aahgo:

I gotta agree JR, too many people jump to a repaint when a light cleaning is all it needs and still retains it character.

Absolutely!

#126 2 years ago

Sorry guys, you may want to avert your eyes for awhile....

Today was the only day for a couple of weeks the forcast said no rain so I felt it was the best day to get out onto the driveway and get rid of the lead paint and see where I stand with the cabinet. I put on my lead-paint rated mask and went to work. There are a few corners that will need some structural repair and I see that someone has worked on the backbox before as it has a couple of sections of wood repair. All in all, nothing I cannot handle.

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#127 2 years ago
Quoted from mark532011:

Sorry guys, you may want to avert your eyes for awhile....
Today was the only day for a couple of weeks the forcast said no rain so I felt it was the best day to get out onto the driveway and get rid of the lead paint and see where I stand with the cabinet. I put on my lead-paint rated mask and went to work. There are a few corners that will need some structural repair and I see that someone has worked on the backbox before as it has a couple of sections of wood repair. All in all, nothing I cannot handle.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Arrrgh!

#128 2 years ago
Quoted from mark532011:

Sorry guys, you may want to avert your eyes for awhile....
Today was the only day for a couple of weeks the forcast said no rain so I felt it was the best day to get out onto the driveway and get rid of the lead paint and see where I stand with the cabinet. I put on my lead-paint rated mask and went to work. There are a few corners that will need some structural repair and I see that someone has worked on the backbox before as it has a couple of sections of wood repair. All in all, nothing I cannot handle.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

You sanded it! You're braver than me. Even with a lead paint rated mask, I wouldn't feel comfortable. I always go chemical stripper if there's lead. But to each his own

#129 2 years ago
Quoted from mark532011:

Sorry guys, you may want to avert your eyes for awhile....
Today was the only day for a couple of weeks the forcast said no rain so I felt it was the best day to get out onto the driveway and get rid of the lead paint and see where I stand with the cabinet. I put on my lead-paint rated mask and went to work. There are a few corners that will need some structural repair and I see that someone has worked on the backbox before as it has a couple of sections of wood repair. All in all, nothing I cannot handle.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I own an Ice-Revue with an almost perfect playfield, if you need me to take real close-up pics of anything for reference just let me know!

E3615FD4-D3CC-42BA-8682-58B8E5355514 (resized).jpegE3615FD4-D3CC-42BA-8682-58B8E5355514 (resized).jpeg
#130 2 years ago

That is absolutely gorgeous!

#131 2 years ago

@mark532011, have you looked at how scottacus is putting together his Cuphead playfield? Might be another approach for you to consider.

2 weeks later
#132 2 years ago

it has been a couple of weeks and its time for a catch-up on what I have been doing for the ice-revue.

After sanding down the cabinet and head, I sprayed them with white.cabinet painted the base coatcabinet painted the base coat

I then added the marbling. Unfortunately I have no way to do the professional marbling so I just used the can. It comes out darker than the original but at least it is there.
adding marbelizingadding marbelizing

I then spent some time getting the scans of the cabinet into photoshop, cleaning them up and making a paint mask for the cameo.
photoshop cleaned imagephotoshop cleaned image

The problem with the cameo is that its only 12" wide so doing stencils of the whole cabinet is tricky.

I decided to start with the head and the front of the cabinet as those parts are less than 12" wide. I laid down the stencils and painted the red and blue. It looks pretty good from a distance!initial colorsinitial colors

However, when it came time to remove the stencils (Oramask 813) I discovered a new problem. Somehow, the base coat had not stuck very well, it had puckered and lifted off when the stencil came up.IMG_5921 (resized).jpgIMG_5921 (resized).jpg
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I have never had to put on a primer before, but its pretty obvious this cabinet is special. So, it is time to sand off the paint and spend extra effort to prime the surface before repainting. However it will be awhile as the garage gets turned into a haunted house for Halloween, so all my pinball stuff gets put away to make room for spiders, skeletons and zombies.

#133 2 years ago

Hey Just a FYI Because I been following your thread. Just because you put primer down first does not necessarily mean your paint will stick any better. You might wind up lifting the primer and the paint or just the paint off the primer when you lift the mask. Or you might not and everything will be good. I been through this before as well. For some reason you have a adhesion problem with the wood on that cab. Not sure if its temp/humidify related or something else. Once I went through 3 sets of stencils to get the job done without pulling any of the paint up. I feel like these 40 year old cabs just don't like to have paint stuck to them for some reason.

One thing that worked for me was to ruff up the surface before laying the primer then roughing up the primer then making sure that all the dust was completely off the surface before laying the mask down. This is why I prefer stencils that are not stuck to the cab. My subway restore went beautiful because I had non stick stencils. It was actually more authentic too because of the over sprayed lines between the colors. When these cabs were painted in the factory they used metal stencils that just laid on the cab. The clean crisp lines of a stencil mask are less authentic and sometimes can make painting a living hell.

Good luck with your restore.

#134 2 years ago

I get stencils laser cut in MDF. No adhesion problems and you get the soft edge overspray look.

#135 2 years ago
Quoted from tscottn:

making sure that all the dust was completely off the surface

This is the culprit of a couple issues I’ve had with masking. It’ll ruin your day for sure, at the worst time too.

#136 2 years ago

While the cabinet has been put away for the Halloween season, work on the playfield continues. The print finally came in and it looks great. I was unable to get the cut-file in the way they wanted so I will be doing my own cutting of the holes and areas where the lights shine through but it looks good so far!

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#137 2 years ago
Quoted from mark532011:

While the cabinet has been put away for the Halloween season, work on the playfield continues. The print finally came in and it looks great. I was unable to get the cut-file in the way they wanted so I will be doing my own cutting of the holes and areas where the lights shine through but it looks good so far![quoted image][quoted image]

I'm very interested to see how this will work out. I always wanted to do this with a PF.

#138 2 years ago

Sadly, another delay. It turns out when submitting a jpg image they have a “this is what will print” bounding box. I checked it and it looked ok, what I did not realize was that only the bounding box would be printed but since I specified 19x35 as the desired image size, they scaled it up to match.

The result, the image is too big....... I talked to their tech support and they said for exact dimensions I needed to submit a pdf instead of a jpg. So a pdf was submitted and now I wait again

1 week later
#139 2 years ago

While I am waiting, I decided to use the print as a test, to see how well everything went and how well the theory matched reality. Sadly, I have mixed results....

Part of the graphic was cut out carefully with a knife and stuck to the surface of a piece of scrap wood. I am not too confident I can place it perfectly when doing the final graphic and having to line it up with the lights and holes... we will see how that goes.

I discovered that thin sections will stretch and then kink. I will have to come down from the top as going sideways causes a crinkle where the cuts are close.sticking the graphic to a samplesticking the graphic to a samplea wrinklea wrinkle

I smoothed it out as best as I could and used the smoother across the image. Thats when I discovered another problem. The scraper is considerably tougher than the image and scratches it, leaving noticable scratches.scratchesscratches
more scratchesmore scratchesthe graphic looks pretty good from afarthe graphic looks pretty good from afar

I smoothed it out using my fingers on a towel and not pushing too hard, then got out the clear mylar plastic. I was especially interested to see how well it works over a cutout space. The spots where it must be cut to allow something to stick up through the playfield should be ok, but how well will it work over the light areas. The tiny difference in height caused by the thickness of the graphic can cause it to look bad if it doesn't stick well.

The mylar went down well but then I discovered the common problem of it not bonding 100% to the image, resulting in lighter patches. By really working it, I can get rid of most of them but not 100% of them.
laying down the mylarlaying down the mylarsome imperfectionssome imperfections

I then cut out one of the holes with a knife and it seemed to go pretty well, the mylar holds it down well and there is not much of a lip. I guess time will tell if it has a problem or not. Also, I stuck the mylar down really hard over the light areas, so we will see if it comes up in a few days or it looks good. I wonder if I should try heating it a bit with a heat gun. I have to be careful not to melt the image but it might help with adheasion and bonding to the image....I don't know.cut outcut out

cut areas and non-cut areascut areas and non-cut areas

Sadly, it looks like this solution doesn't really work perfectly either...sigh

#140 2 years ago

Why don’t you apply the Mylar to the artwork before applying it to the play field? The Mylar would act as a transfer sheet and keep the artwork from folding in on its self.

Another method of lining up artwork is too wet the surface with soapy water so that the Vinyl floats on top of the play field then squeegee the liquid off once it is aligned.

https://www.edcheung.com/album/album07/Pinball/apply.htm

#141 2 years ago
Quoted from wolffcub:

I'm just going to share a few things.....I am not criticizing or bashing.
Before you even start with paint the clear you shoot over the bare wood has to be applied, sanded , applied and sanded until you get a smooth surface. Any dips or craters will cause paint to leak under the edge of the mask.
I know its recommended to start with white but I don't feel that way at all. White is easily contaminated buy adjacent colours rubbing or smearing. Even if you apply white and clear over it the sanding marks in the white can hold other colours so at the very end of the project you have to end up doing the white areas all over again.

These two points are spot on. All of your issues start with a play field that wasn't coated in 2 part clear, sanded level/flat. This eliminates most all bleed through as well as anything remotely peeling off the surface. And white is always last in my book, its way to easy to show overspray. Good luck on the rest of the restore, I admire your patience!

#142 2 years ago

Thanks guys! Interesting idea on your page about coating with varathane. I tried using spray clear and it heated up and softened the graphic. But varathane might not, I will try it. Also doing the clear first....interesting idea!

#143 2 years ago

My only other observation is, the paint I use needs to be cured by heat treatment. It was suggested earlier, but maybe use a heat gun on low or a blow dryer to cure it before laying down any frisket

#144 2 years ago
Quoted from Timm:

Another method of lining up artwork is too wet the surface with soapy water so that the Vinyl floats on top of the play field then squeegee the liquid off once it is aligned.
https://www.edcheung.com/album/album07/Pinball/apply.htm

This is also a good idea I’ve had great success with arcade decals using the wet method. You don’t necessarily need to use soap. I use glass cleaner. There is a fine line between too wet and too dry because you can cause a lot of air bubbles. Buy yourself a squeegee at the dollar store to smooth out any issues.

#145 2 years ago

Update on my playfield surface attempts.

After a couple of weeks, the mylar on the first attempt has come off a bit. It looks kind of like it has leprosy1st attempt results1st attempt results

I used a heat-gun to try and bond the mylar to the playfield graphic but it really didn't do anything...sigh.

Using @timm's idea, I put a piece of the 1st playfield graphic down on a flat smooth surface (counter) and put the plastic on it. By pressing hard on it I was able to get it looking pretty good. Only a couple of spots that are not 100% - this looks like it might be a workable technique. applying the mylar on a counter firstapplying the mylar on a counter firstit looks decent on the counter!it looks decent on the counter!

Now to wait a couple of weeks and see if it develops "leprosy" or not. I also plan to try some spray-on varathane to see if it will work.

#146 2 years ago

Even though its only been a couple of days, I checked on the graphic that had the mylar pre-stuck to it and found it too is starting to show light spots, areas the size of a grain of rice or a pea where the mylar has pulled away from the playfield graphic. I can stick it back down by pushing on it hard but it comes back. I suspect this mylar may be weird somehow...

Anyway, the good news is that I picked up some spray-on lacquer and gave it a try. spray lacquerspray lacquer

I put the first layer on thin as I was worried about it melting the playfield graphic (see post #115 above), but it went on great1st layer of lacquer1st layer of lacquer

I ended up putting 4 good coats from the can on it and it looks great right now. We will see how it looks in a day or two but so far this looks like a great solution.after 4 coats of lacquerafter 4 coats of lacquer

2 weeks later
#147 2 years ago

update - Halloween is over and my vacation is done. I have finished cutting out the graphic, it is getting a final fit before being glued down onto the wood.

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#148 2 years ago

A major milestone has been achieved!

The playfield is glued down onto the wood. All holes have been cut and it would be ready for lacquer except for one small trouble spot. Where the dancers foot comes out of the "ice" and overlays the wood, the details were so small I did not think I could cut it out. But now I have a small area where the background can be seen.

Its small but it is front and center, so I am going to try and make a wood-grain decal and stick it over the small area.. thats the next step!the decal is on the woodthe decal is on the woodsmall area to be fixedsmall area to be fixed

#149 2 years ago

I’d just cut around the skate and paint a few black lines. Doesn’t have to look exactly like the original there no one will know.

Looking good, congrats as persevering!

#150 2 years ago

Honestly I wouldn't even mess with it. It looks good and right now your fixated on it. Once you populate the PF it will barley be noticeable. Or just cut around the skate as someone else has said.

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