Sorry. I did not get any notice in my email their were any replys on my post. I just figured no one chimed in.
Thank you all for weighing in on this. It is very helpful in coming up with a fair bill.
This is a 1992 Data East Lethal Weapon 3 Pinball Machine.
To comment on some of the replys.
I am not trying to be dishonest in any way. I never told this customer I was a professional at pinball or hung a shingle. I do consider myself a professional in my field. I do consider myself good at fixing things. He had another guy that stopped showing up and ended up he had died. They asked me a few times if I would work on the machine. I took the info from the machine and did some research and felt confident I could attempt to resolve the immediate issues and any others that I found. I had told him that I had never worked on a pinball machine but would be willing to try and repair it for him.
The first time I even looked at it was to replace the blown fuse and it was off the clock after I had finished work on two of his slot machines. The second time I saw the machine because it wasn't working again was the first time I charged for a house call when I took the boards for repair and said the boards alone would be at least $500.00 but there were problems in the machine as well. He did not want me to take the machine for repair as both of his slot machines were damaged moving them out of the house. He wanted on site service and was aware of my rates.
On my return visit with the boards he asked me again how many pinball machines had I fixed and I was honest with him. I told him none. He was very happy I had been able to figure out all the issues to that point and shook my hand on the spot. We discussed again at this time before I did anymore work then the "$500.00" that it had taken more time to repair and without spelling it out we were both on the same page that the repair costs were increasing. At this point I did express that there was quite a bit more work that needed to be done and that the boards in the machine had not been maintenanced ever. Just a few shotgun repairs to a broken machine just to get it "working" and out the door. I did ask him how long he had the machine and it was 6 months. I asked where he got it and was told a guy had two of them and was swapping parts between machines to get it working.
As far as anyone giving pinball a bad name I would say the award there goes to the guy who did the crap repairs and sold the pinball for top dollar. That was not me. The coils and spliced wires and other "repairs" were the cause of all the other damage to the boards. Most of the work was just never done. Of course I didn't know that. I would assure any techs that their good name is safe. I am no pinball tech. Now that in mind if I can get this shopped out and do what needs to be done to get it working 100% I am proud of myself for doing it.
I am surprised that no one has weighed in on the fact that fixing these boards would not have fixed the pinball machine. My ignorance of that fact when mentioning the initial $500.00 does not mean to me that I am required at this time to for free repair and replace parts on the playfield. Had I know more about the machine or pinballs in general I would have known the CPU/MPU and PPB were damaged by the coils. I would have known that extra work needed to be done and quoted for that work. But it would have still cost the customer more money.
I was comfortable in charging $500.00 parts and labor for recapping the boards. Generally a recap costs no more then $10-15 in parts. My inexperience with the pinball boards led me to misjudge the amount of other work needed to make these boards as good or better then new.
I made a judgment at that time having a relationship with the customer that he did not need me going back and forth on every detail of the repair. I knew from the past repairs that he wanted it done right more then cheap.
Most replies are stuck on the number $500.00 that I quoted. But I didn't quote $500.00 or spring a big bill of $1500 for a $500.00 job. I did take a job and tell the customer it would be no less then $500.00 just to repair the boards. At that time I did express more work would need to be done to the machine and the cost of house calls, labor onsite. I included that in the original post but I'm not sure if it was read that way.
I have done repairs over $1,500 on Computer Servers and POS systems all onsite over many days. In these situations my rates were known and the only acceptable end result was the 100% restoration of the working system. There was no back and forth on quotes. I usually under billed compared to the hours invested. Many times after the fact my feedback from my corporate contact was my bill was too cheap. They knew they would have paid more elsewhere.
I think this is why my work on these boards hours each day over a week started to add up in my mind to what those jobs took from me. I stayed late at my computer shop to do the repairs as that time was not available during normal hours. Like any time at work this was time away from my family or my time to relax. If I were a dedicated Pinball shop or a full time onsite tech this would not be an issue but I did not charge any extra for this overtime.
$400.00 for labor and $100.00 for parts at $50hr would be 8 hours of labor. This would not include any other onsite work or trip charge or anything. I have looked online for board repairs and found $125.00 just for the CPU/MPU with no burn damage or previous repairs plus shipping cost to and from. At this rate for all 4 boards would cost about the same as I was charging and would not help me with any future repairs needed onsite. I did consider sending them for repair but it occurred to me that is not what the customer wanted. He wanted me to be his tech for his games. He wanted me to learn to fix his machine so I would be able to keep it running. I did not see this as one time repair job. I don't think I am or was billing him for my learning time. I think we both understood that by my admitting my inexperience that it may take more time for me to figure out. Which I adjusted by billing for less time then it actually took.
Some of the replys make it sound like I was spending hours scratching my head and going to school on the customers dime. It took more then 2 hours after work alone on mouser electronics to order all the resistors, capacitors, transistors, diodes etc. This included using the manual, reading parts from the board. I do not know how much quicker this would go next time. I put $10hr on that as it was my time spent and I know my customers don't expect me to work for free or so they tell me.
In my business when I do a good job I don't see my customers for years but when they have problems I'm there to help
I admit as I have said I am not a pinball tech. I am a electronics tech that repairs circuit boards and have specialized in computers. Throw in coils to the mix and this is not much different then me fixing anything else I have over the years.
The power board was stripped and all major components replaced. (55 seperate items) There was some damage from a leaked capacitor. The ppb, flipper and sound board had minor repairs. Mainly recapping and reflow. The MPU/CPU had a few series of drivers that were out and a quad gate. There were one or two previous bad repairs that had to be fixed. The Mars light repair was done badly and caused damage to the VUK coil drivers. All connectors,relays and other cold solder joints reflowed on each board. All the pins were cleaned on each connector topside as well. I say 10 hours soldering as that is what it took away from my normal business and into the night. Most evenings my wife was calling asking if I was ever coming home. After research and comparisons to other techs as well as my own computer rates $30hr and $50hr is not what pin techs usually charge. Most quoted $75-95hr so I didn't feel I was charging a profesional pinball rate but simply my normal out of office and in office rate.
Throughout my career there have always been other businesses or persons that charged less then me. I was fine with that. I knew what my time was worth. Many times the cheaper guy did a bad job and the same person was back and had no issue paying me to do a good job not like the cheaper guy. If I kept strict hours or charged less or more per hour for different types of labor it actually adds up to cost more overall. For instance flat rate of $75hr across the board. I did all board level repairs at my shop to keep the cost per hour down.
I am not sure what the replys about how much it cost for parts or why the semi working boards needed so much work. The boards did not need $300 in parts. The parts ordered for the boards were $165.00 from mouser and another $35.00 from Ebay. The other $100.00 were for playfield plastics, coils, lights ,switches, a plunger, springs and a few more parts. Not one single supplier had what I needed and it took orders from 4 seperate sites to get the needed parts. This machine is 27 years old and the only repairs ever done were to the Mars light cover, drivers from damaging the light moving it and some hack job playfield repairs. By the wear on the playfield it has been played a good amount of time. I am confident the repairs I did were needed. It is also obvious I could have replaced only a few parts and charged a few hundred $$ and made myself look bad when something I didn't fix caused the machine to break again in a month. My main attempt was to bulletproof the system.
I do not think that my inexperience on pinball made it take longer and cost more. I do think that more needed to be replaced to make this pin even just "work" then expected. People always tell me that their computer was working and I jest that everything broken used to "work". At times I have to discover if the machine was received broken and never worked for them. And come after another tech and find bad work just like on this pinball machine.
This Lethal Weapon 3 machine costs the customer at least twice what he should have paid. Adding in more for repairs seems like throwing good money after bad. His initial investment is not my main concern in total cost of repair as he has the machine and is stuck with it. If it originally cost him $500 instead of $3000 it would have still needed the same amount of work. I was not consulted before purchase. Often I alter my rates or normal quoted prices to make the best deal for my customer and do not work on items which cost more to repair then they are worth. I am probably wrong but I dont think he can just pick up another LW3 for $1500. I'm not sure who would buy it broken or what value his non working machine would have if not fixed.
Most of you guys selling pinballs and making a profit must have purchased a machine in need of work getting a good deal because someone wasn't willing to invest the money into repairs. To me this would imply the repairs cost too much to the customer. So you pinball techs buy the machine and repair it and resell it. I would think in the process getting a better rate for the hours you invested into it. Of course the question there is why not give the guy a great deal on fixing it and make less money for yourself??
I do often give away my labor to repair things on laptops or desktops that would make the repair not worth it. Replace a power Jack or repair a hinge for free with a SSD install. But for a computer if the cost of repair is too high you can toss it and buy a new one. I don't see a restored vintage item as disposable. Our hobbies are not investments but a way to spend our money we earn on something we enjoy. I don't ever expect to get my money back on bmx bike I restore. It's a labor of love.
I did discover people restoring pinball machines explain how they couldn't charge people for all the 50 hours of work they did as it would be $6-7k to fully restore the machine. I found people charging what I would consider a waste of my time for repairs as well. House call and onsite repair and making $50.00 after parts for 2 hours worth of work.
Maybe if I was a friend helping a buddy out.... I've been there and done that and if I'm the buddy I might have a good day helping a friend or if I'm the other guy find out my free repair wasn't as good as one I would have paid for and have to get it fixed by a pro anyway. It goes both ways. I have had 19 year old kids come to replace tile or other home repair and get a crap job from a company that says they have been in business for 20 years and stand by the job and their expensive bill. I don't charge anything to return a broken computer and usually take it in trade to recoup my lost labor if that is acceptable to the customer.
I have not fully restored his machine. I have tested everything I can and am replacing anything suspect. I am doing my best to make sure there are as few future repairs needed as possible.
Some of the suggestions here sound like just doing enough to get it working and no more. I know I would be back again and again if that was the case. A $250.00 repair as has been suggested would lead to another repair and another. With the travel time, 3 hours away from my office, life etc everytime there was another problem it would start costing me more in gas and time then I had even made. To keep this good customer I would be forced to make a string of repairs all under the guise of giving him a good deal. I am not willing to waste time and money by going cheap on the repairs. My customers trust my professional opinion to do what is in their best interest. By professional I mean the years under my belt restoring electronics.
I like the idea of offering to buy the machine but do not think it would have worked. His game room is set up for a pinball machine and this LW3 is his favorite item in the room.
$500.00 was not the original quote. The customer knew at the time I accepted the repair that there was more work to do and my labor to cover those things. This makes the original bill as known and agreed by the customer to be at least $800.00. That includes a flat rate of $100 per board parts and labor. So at this point I am closer to twice the estimate from the extra work that needed to be done.
I am sure the replys are from experts that could have done it faster and cheaper. I am also a perfectionist and know that any patch jobs I did would and could be seen by the next guy that I hadn't done all that was needed to bulletproof the boards I worked on. I did not want to revisit the same issues more then once. I did order multiples of most parts as I knew other issues might pop up. This amounts to about 20-30$ Some parts in the playfield could fail and burn more components. I added a few $1s here and there as extras when ordering. For instance the right saucer coil is shot evidence of the scorched MPU/CPU and was disconnected for that reason by me but the VUK coil was stuck on at testing. This problem was not evident on the first visit. It fried the Tip36c on the PPB on the second trip and had to be removed and repaired along with the fried diode on the coil. My extra parts I ordered came in handy.
As far as me taking $500.00 and sucking it up or learning a lesson let's see how that works.
Without any spares the parts would be about $250.00.
9 hours in the car going back and forth 3 times. I'm sure had I planned better I could have done it in two trips.
Gas is about $30.00
No one seems to have qualms with my $50.00 an hour rate but the consensus is my novice level made it take too long. So let's say I'm super fast and it only took 4 hours total to do all the board removal and replacement as well as replace the coils switches etc.
That is $200.00 for labor. So far no charge to repair the boards. So I'm at $450.00 already for the bill with the 4 hours labor. Let's say 1 hour soldering all five boards so $50.00 more making it $500.00 total.
At this point assuming I had actually told him it would only cost $500.00 total which I did not, I would have basically wasted my time. 14 hours billed with driving and onsite work. Giving me about $13.50 an hour. But it actually took more then 25 hours of my time so for this job I get paid less then minimum wage or about $7.25 hr. Either way is no good for me.
So to be realistic
Sticking to my original quote of $500.00 flat rate to recap the boards that brings the $450.00 bill to $950.00. If I charge for only one house call at $150 bringing it to $1100. This is what I had thought doing rough math. It wasn't until one complication after another brought me to calculate my actual time invested into this job. With the bill at $1100 there is no hour rate for all the work. If it took me longer then it was on me. Talking about the job with friends, customers and family led me to believe I was not charging enough for the work I put into the job. This is why I made this post here.
I don't think this is "logic" I think its math. There are no surprises in that bill. There are needed parts to do the job. Needed travel time charge and needed labor.
I have not marked up the cost of parts or inflated labor charges. I have tried to account for the time that was needed to perform the repairs. Normally I charge a flat rate. This is for repairs I do daily at my shop. I charge due to inflation more now then when I started 20 years ago and my skills have progressed where it takes me 1/5 of the time to do the work. I do not believe I should charge less because I can do the work faster now. My rates for those services are the same if it takes me 1hr or 5hrs.
Lets look at a car shop doing an alternator repair. Wholesale cost of part $125.00. Shop bill's you $225.00 for the part. Actual labor time is one hour for a worker getting paid $15.00 hr. The shop bills you using a computer program called Alldata that has your car listed at 2.5 hours for alternator repair. The shop charges $60.00 an hour so it costs $150.00 for the labor. You get a bill for $375.00 and it cost the shop $140.00 so they make a profit of $235.00 less expenses. Tools, machines, overhead. A driveway mechanic would have done the job for $80.00 and actual cost for the part. With no overhead that would be a good profit for him but what kind of warranty for you.
There are all kinds of people in this world. This customer would drop off his $100k car at the dealer and pay the bill. He wouldn't argue or discuss the price. That in mind doesn't mean I want to overcharge him any more then I want to do a bunch of work and not get paid for it. But it does mean I'm not stuck with an unrealistic budget and just stop working because it will cost the customer "too much" or give away my services to finish the job.
I have a brick and mortar shop that I run. I have for just going on 20 years. If I am out of the office I am not there to make money and still have a lease to pay. When I do a house call it is only after advising the customer to bring in the machine as it is cheaper for them. That and I can work on multiple machines at once. A client that needs an onsite house call pays me to leave my office and come to them. If possible I bring the machine back to my shop and return it to them at no extra charge. Those house calls are usually not more then a 25-30 min trip. I am the only tech at my shop. When I am not at my shop the work does not get completed.
I wonder had someone picked up this machine for $600.00 broken and done all the work I have done would they have hesitated to sell it for $2100 and make the same amount of money for the same work.
I did find 2 local pinball machines being sold for over $3k and when I contacted the seller they said nothing had been done to them. They were a 1989 and 1991 model and I can only think they would need a good bit of long overdue maintenance. Seems a little shady to value a machine but not put a value on the work needed to make it worth your asking price.
This guy got robbed on the purchase of this machine. Anyone of you replying could or would have done this repair for much less than myself and seem to think I am the one robbing him by overcharging him for repairs.
The fact I have not given him a bill and that I came on here looking for advice should explain that is not the case. I am trying to provide a quality service the same as anyone else and be fairly compensated for my time.
I can see that some of the people replying work at big companies and maybe only get paid a lower hour rate for their time. Some people have sold dozens of machines and must spend countless hours on repairs and restorations only to not be fully compensated for their time. Most do not agree with anything I have said at all and found many holes in my "logic" even going as far as acusing me of being dishonest or misrepresenting myself and none of that is true. The varying responses all are helpful none the less even thought I am getting chastised for stepping out of my field.
People ask me to fix all kinds of things that I don't normally fix. Some jobs I take on and others I pass on.
I came here asking for advice and I thought it only fair to try to respond to everyone that replied. I know I may have repeated myself some and this is a long post. I will check back and see what people have to say. I have attached a few pictures of the machine and boards.
Update is as follows. The holiday has delayed my last visit and I have still not made any formal invoice as of yet. I do have the remaining parts ordered and am confident I have everything to finish this job.
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Hopkins, MN
