(Topic ID: 183527)

Total Nuclear Annihilation production by Spooky Pinball

By Grizlyrig

2 years ago

Topic Stats

  • 7,250 posts
  • 628 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 82 days ago by jaybeedee
  • Topic is favorited by 183 Pinsiders


Linked Games

Topic poll

“Would you buy this if Spooky Pinball built it? How much would you be willing to pay?”

  • Yes 156 votes
  • No 219 votes
  • Maybe 186 votes
  • $5500-5750 324 votes
  • $5751-6000 98 votes
  • $6001-6250 63 votes
  • $6251-6500 44 votes
  • $6501-6750 18 votes
  • $6751-7000 34 votes

(Multiple choice - 1142 votes by 940 Pinsiders)

Topic Gallery

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Topic index (key posts)

34 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #11 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by APB_Enterprises (2 years ago)

Post #301 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by stevevt (2 years ago)

Post #360 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by trilogybeer (2 years ago)

Post #376 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by FalconPunch (2 years ago)

Post #1501 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by johnnyutah (2 years ago)

Post #1502 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by oohlou (2 years ago)

Post #1768 Comments from the artist about the game's art Posted by mandraws (2 years ago)

Post #2179 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by SpookyCharlie (2 years ago)

Post #2378 webcast info on TNA and Jetsons. Posted by SpookyCharlie (2 years ago)

Post #2515 YouTube vid. Great quality. Posted by DeadFlip (2 years ago)

Post #2530 Game not yet complete and more code and updates and graphics will be coming. Posted by TheNoTrashCougar (2 years ago)

Post #2942 Link to buy your very own sac rack! Posted by TheNoTrashCougar (2 years ago)

Post #3056 Interview from the corn field drive. Part one and part two. Posted by toyotaboy (2 years ago)

Post #3193 Video of first production game. Thanks Deadflip. Posted by toyotaboy (2 years ago)

Post #3284 Place to order a knocker and shaker. Posted by PDFVT (2 years ago)

Post #3335 Good pictures! Posted by johnnyutah (2 years ago)

Post #3431 List of boards in the final game Posted by TheNoTrashCougar (2 years ago)

Post #3623 Link to buy the custom pingulp. Posted by iEatHands (2 years ago)

Post #3842 launch of interior side mirrors for TNA Posted by TheNoTrashCougar (2 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#12 2 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

Can anyone do a sub 5k game besides stern??


You can get your BOM under 5k. But honestly factoring in programming, design and engineering work, as well credit card processing fees and other small costs that add up, a smaller run game priced under 6k game is a money losing venture.

Then when having your game manufactured by an outside company there is also the cost of having the game assembled and handled. Each game assembled could easily start at $700-$800 each. So add that in also.

Stern can do it because they have the infrastructure in place and can spread these costs across many titles and get it all running optimally. Spooky is doing it too, just doesn't have the economies of scale that Stern does. Yet.

Most importantly, in my opinion, is to make sure the game is priced in a way that makes the entire effort worth doing. The market always wants the lowest price possible, but if it is priced so low that the parties involved "break even" at best in the end, then there is little incentive to do it again.

While cool new game designs are the most exciting part for many, I find a solid business plan and responsible company making the games to be just as, if not more, exciting. But I am small biz guy outside of pinball, so my tastes may be skewed.

I love TA. Scott did a killer job. Definitely one of my favorite games played at Expo last year. The sound was so impressive. Crunch the numbers and figure out how to get this game into the hands of its biggest fans!

FAST Pinball

#73 2 years ago
Quoted from Seantronic:

I also agree that this pin would be fantastic with some 80s throwback-style artwork. I put together a rough logo idea / backglass to check out.

Killer! Backlit with RGB LEDs with selective cut outs where the light can really pop would be awesome. Then you could have lighting effects that roll up from the playfield inserts, into the backbox and back again.

So cool!

FAST Pinball

#82 2 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

Make an LE without the LCD for us SS fanatics. We can hook up a laptop for the menus.
It really looked and sounded great.

Segment displays end up being more expensive than LCD screens nowadays. Especially when there is already a PC in the game.

Segments: $199 http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1730

LCD: $149 http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=4430

FAST Pinball

#83 2 years ago
Quoted from dmbjunky:

Make an LE without the LCD for us SS fanatics.

Oops. I read your post backwards. Sorry about that.

FAST Pinball

#85 2 years ago
Quoted from swinks:

only guessing as have zero programming experience but the programming of segments compared to the lcd must be alot easier.

Absolutely. The LCDs only look excellent when the content is there. Frameworks like the Mission Pinball Framework have tools for making LCD displays look nice pretty quickly, but any rich content creation takes time for sure.

I misread the initial message and was commenting on how often times people assume the hardware is cheap for segment displays. This is not often the case anymore.

FAST Pinball

#117 2 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

They're all direct controlled with PD-LED boards from Multimorphic, not some inferior serial chain garbage. So yeah, there's cost in hardware.

Here we go again...

FAST Pinball

1 week later
#206 2 years ago
Quoted from trilogybeer:

Yancy and Paul motherf#ckin' Reno in that photo as well .

I think you missed longhornengineer and benheck 's arm?!

FAST Pinball

#209 2 years ago

Scott, please bring this TA to the NW Pinball Show in June! I can help with logistics!

FAST Pinball

#217 2 years ago
Quoted from JosiahCox:

Please! If this was at the NW show it would be so badass.
I really want to see this game in person as I am just getting into making homebrew games and also because I think it looks like a ton of fun to play.
Scott, you rock man!

Maybe we can pass the hat and pool some gas money and get Scott and Team Spooky to carpool!

FAST Pinball

#222 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Spooky is coming to SFGE that weekend.
Scott, you should ride with Spooky and bring TA. I'll bring you at least a six pack.

You better play the hell out of it while he drinking his 6 pack!

FAST Pinball

#243 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

I can't believe people are so excited about this game, can't say I'm impressed and have no interest in owning it.

I thought you had FINALLY gone mental!

FAST Pinball

#266 2 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Just to help out since I built a Bally cab from scratch...
You need:
Leg brackets
Side rails
Coindoor plus coin mechs
Coin box
Shooter assembly
Start button
Grounding braid
Leg bolts
Leg levelers
Power switch plus hardware
Cab buttons
Button switches
Button sashes
Lockdown bar
Lockdown bar receiver
Glass channels
Rear glass channel receiver
Wiring harness possibly
Screws, bolts and hardware for all
Clear coat to protect paint
I'm sure there's more, and this is only the cab, not the head
There's a lot of expense here when buying new parts.

Don't forget shipping and wood + working skills and tools AND space to put the cabinet together right and not have it look like garbage.

FAST Pinball

#287 2 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

The LCD screen could be taken out. Keep it as classic as possible, but the lighting & sound is the real draw.

Segment displays cost more than the LCD screens available now.

FAST Pinball

1 week later
#294 2 years ago

Going PinHeck would be a significant shift in cost of production!

FAST Pinball

#296 2 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Doesn't necessarily mean that the Pinheck board has to be used
I'm in, still want to see the art

Of course it doesn't.

You would have to factor in the cost of reprogramming for the pinheck, as well as any other hardware / software needed to accomplish what Scott does in TA that the PinHeck doesn't support.

Make it happen and bring it to the NW Pinball Show!

FAST Pinball

#305 2 years ago
Quoted from stevevt:

Per Spooky's FB page, Spooky will be producing Total Annihilation.
"YES! Spooky is making Scott Danesi's Total Annihilation. More details to come over the next few months!"

Awesome! Congrats thenotrashcougar !

FAST Pinball

#327 2 years ago
Quoted from FalconPunch:

Who else would do it?

Possibly American Pinball?

FAST Pinball

#433 2 years ago
Quoted from mof:

1. Drops don't have to "stay down for a full reset" if you put a solenoid behind each one. See Barracora, Defender. Raise them when you choose.

Very expensive mech. Fathom has this also.

FAST Pinball

#523 2 years ago
Quoted from emkay:

Yes, but the sickness of nixies in a new production machine...

You can create a similar experience using laser cut plastics and led lighting. I love this!


FAST Pinball

#528 2 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

heh. cutting the display just creates a massive unnecessary difference in software. And doesn't cut anywhere NEAR $1k out of the price. Probably not even $100.
The pinside price bitching thread once the retail price for this game gets announced is going to be legendary.

Cutting the backbox segments is what would save the most money. LCDs are cheaper, but the content creation cost is greater.

DO NOT make display choices an "option." Creating all these different configurations is what is going to sink new pinball companies. Making a "Standard" and "LE" where there is a LE art package on the same exact layout is fine, but there is no way new pinball companies can survive making machines exactly to each buyer's preference. They need to build machines in the two configurations until the LEs sell out, then just the Standard configuration.

The allure of the "$500 mod" is not taking into account all the effort it takes to facilitate and support that mod. Saving a few dollars here and there on a retail price creates an accounting and logistics nightmare down the line, as well.

FAST Pinball

#544 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I sure hope the segments AND the display sticks!!!!!
I want Scotts original vision WITHOUT cost cutting! Please just make the game and let people decide. I'll pay for both the displays and the segments. It is part of the game, the retro vibe, the awesomness of seeing scores at all times, the over done nature of it. I love it all.

I think it is great to focus on the designer's vision. Without a doubt. If you are designing a game to design a game, make the game you want to make. If you are making a game that you want to take to market, there are other things to consider. I am not talking sacrificing artist integrity or anything like that, but there are confines to work within if you hope to successfully take a product to market. Besides, limitations are good. I say all the time, "You cannot create art with unlimited resources." Budget and what the market will respond positively to are important factors to consider.

Look what happened with WOOLY. They made the game they wanted to make. Many people said they loved it and when it came down to time to put up the money to buy, there were not enough buyers comfortable with the price to justify the endeavor. I don't know for certain if it was the intention from the get go to make a game to sell. I would imagine probably not. But if they were, instead, building WOOLY to produce and to sell, there may have been changes made to the design well before any of us experienced it that would have made it more affordable without making it any less awesome.

These are all discussions that Scott and Charlie will be having and there really isn't anything that any of us are going to say that will effect that. I only make the comments I do to try and pass along a little of what I have learned from the pinball business side of things. SO many people love to spout off "OMG!!! If you just did X, Y and Z you could sell a bazillion for $8000/$7000/$6000/$5000/$4000." Each time I read posts like that, I start to reply "BASED ON WHAT REAL WORLD DATA/EXPERIENCE/INSIGHT???" But then I stop and I remember that debates like that do little good in a forum like this. Instead, I just try to pass along little bits of info when appropriate and hope for the best for everyone who takes a run at making pinball.

More pinball is good for us all.

FAST Pinball

#554 2 years ago
Quoted from Snux:

The segment displays don't need to be expensive or need a heap of wiring. These as an example only need 3 wires. They can be daisy chained too, so run all 4 displays from 3 wires

You know, I hadn't thought about the fact that this game does not need to precisely adhere to a certain segment display style/format. In my previous efforts with segment displays we needed to exactly match or it wasn't good enough.

Cool site, too.

FAST Pinball

#614 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

good to hear!!!!

For sure. When ordering in larger quantities you can expect to shave ~15% off retail.

FAST Pinball

#619 2 years ago
Quoted from Nelly:

You only offer your customers 15% discount on large bulk orders? Geez Aaron, loosen up the purse strings a little bit.

LOL. Well, the topic was not on our hardware. I didn't want to put Gerry in a bind if he didn't cut deeper than that. Our new bundle pricing sits just under 15% off when ordering 1 bundle.

FASTBundles_2017 (resized).png

At larger runs, we see a significant drop in our manufacturing cost in large runs and we pass those savings on to you!

FAST Pinball

#630 2 years ago
Quoted from Nelly:

I gotta ask man, if this topic isn't about your product then why are you posting what people can expect for discount percentages? They surly can't be based on P-ROC discounts because how the hell would you know what Gerrys margins are? So one can only assume you were talking about your own margins which you confirmed by posting more about your product in this thread. That was the point of my post. I didn't ask what your margins are nor does that even have any place in this thread. I was just poking fun at you. I didn't expect you to open up even more about it! Lol.

I threw out ~15% because that is a common first tier discount break, not a margins thing at all. There has been a lot of talk in this thread about cost and I thought the volume discount thing was a great point to bring up. As I can't speak for Gerry, I didn't. I shared what I could speak to as an example and as a response to your post. I think there are a lot of people who don't know exactly how the costs break down for designing and building a game and that has been the conversation I have been participating in, in this thread.

I don't feel like anything I have said here can be construed as "convert TA to FAST!" There is no way it would be worth it time and effort-wise for Scott. That was not the point of my posts at all. But I have seen they have ruffled feathers as the P-ROC troops have been brought in to comment on my post, out of the blue, so I will step aside.

TA kicks ass. I have said this since the first time I got to play it at Expo and I am so stoked it is getting made!

FAST Pinball

2 weeks later
#705 2 years ago

"Scott Danesi's Total Annihilation" SDTA

Now it's an original title!

FAST Pinball

#726 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Scott had a design company before all this.. I'm assuming it'll have his name on it, maybe even a logo.. sort of like when pat lawlor was designing for stern and you'd see PLD on the back glass.

On the Spooky Podcast they said it would be a Spooky Title, not a contract game release.

FAST Pinball

#788 2 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

Hey Mike and Aaron if they go with that name I want credit for coming up with it 45 days ago

I wasn't looking for credit for anything on this rad game, but if you want it, it's all yours!

FAST Pinball

#790 2 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

I was just bull****ing but if a signed translite gets sent out we'll have to flip for it
Can't wait to see this machine completed. I have been hoping for a new player to put out an original themed single level throwback table.

lol. sounds good!

The audio on this game! Come on! If you haven't played it yet, do it. It was one of my favorites at Expo last year. Setting the bar for a pinball soundtrack right here.

FAST Pinball

#860 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

the Vonnie D shirt is the icing on the cake!
Wonder if Wes is out of jail (didn't he go to jail for selling fake pot laced crap?)

Pretty sure, yeah. He called me once wanting to buy a pinball domain name. He was surprised when I knew who he was. "I thought you were in jail?"

FAST Pinball

#863 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

ok, gotta ask...
what was the domain name he wanted to buy?



I am pretty sure it was pinballscoreboard.com

I had bought a bunch of pinball related domain names that sounded fun. Back when we were hunting for a new name for the company there would be a cool pinball related domain that would pop up in the search results from time to time.

FAST Pinball

#866 2 years ago

Ok, be honest, who checked the WHOIS to see if it was actually purchased?

FAST Pinball

#1110 2 years ago
Quoted from dzoomer:

I listened to the newest podcast for this pin with Scott Danesi to keep up with the latest on the pin, but to also try to fully understand the artwork as he envisioned it and compare it to what was released.
Scott has described the intent on artwork in detail, which is called 80's future realism. As he mentioned, this is a big scene and there are lots of people into it. There are a lot of example of 80's future realism out there, here's a google search.
The TNA artwork released does show this influence strongly; much of the artwork is very faithful to the style of 80's future realism. We see it with the neon colors, with the grid lines, geometric shapes, technology shown, etc. The artwork is faithful to that style everywhere,...... except in the drawing of the woman imo. And many here have posted the same thing, so I find there is something to this. As some have noted, she looks more like a 90's style of drawing. The 80's style of drawing people tended to have either less detail or more realism. Browse the images in the earlier google link to see many examples of drawing people in the style of 80's future realism. Sorry, I do not see this style in the woman as drawn on the artwork.
The drawing shown of the woman is a middle-of-the road detail and cartoon style that I found became popular in the 90's and 2000's. I have to agree at this point that there is merit to the feedback that the style of the woman is not as congruent with the overall art package as it could have been and as described by Scott.
Don't get me wrong on the drawing of the woman. Matt Andrews is a great artist and it's great, amazing, it's just not the style typically used in 80's retro futurism. And no, this is not about anything else some have alluded to here about it being a woman, or needs more sexy, etc. I appreciate the 80's style future realism look Scott was going for; I just expected the woman on the backglass to be more in that style; a woman with either less detail or more realism and more drawn in the well-known look of 80's future realism (again, browse the images in the google link above). As it sits now, that drawing of the woman contrasts the rest of the 80's style future realism look. And because drawing people in artwork is probably the most important driver for the overall feel, I end up finding the released artwork to be more 90's style.
According to the podcast, two backglasses will come with it, one without the numeric displays and one with. And this feedback is supposedly all for naught. Scott has said the artwork is not changing.
That was just my take here, and I'm not slamming things. I look forward to the next information released.

IMO this post sums up what I think a bunch of people have been trying (some attempts far better than others) to convey.

The work itself is great, the cohesiveness of the girl and her environment seem disconnected. Originally, I thought that was the intent. Why would someone in the past look at all like their surroundings in the future? But according to Scott it was intended to follow the 80's future realism. If that is truly the intent, the girl could use some refinement.

I think it would be great for the creative process to run the revisions by your most hardcore artist friends and ask for critique. Where it is not about what is good, but what could be better. Any artist is used to this process, so I am sure Matt won't be offended. Do not waste time running it by pinball buddies or "yes men" at this stage.

Keep at it.

FAST Pinball

#1171 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballlife:

Trust me, his buddies are not yes men.

That is great! Sounds like he has a pretty rad boss, too!

FAST Pinball

#1174 2 years ago
Quoted from bangerjay:

Do not waste time running it by pinball buddies or "yes men" at this stage.
Keep at it.
FAST Pinball
See, if we were friends, I'd have no trouble telling you when you were being an ass

Well, we are not friends, but go ahead and tell me I am an ass if you need to.

FAST Pinball


Edit: I had to go back and see what I had posted and how it could have been so upsetting. Taking the line you quoted out of context certainly sounds lame. Comment in context:

Quoted from fastpinball:

I think it would be great for the creative process to run the revisions by your most hardcore artist friends and ask for critique. Where it is not about what is good, but what could be better. Any artist is used to this process, so I am sure Matt won't be offended. Do not waste time running it by pinball buddies or "yes men" at this stage.
Keep at it.
FAST Pinball

The point I was trying to make was for Scott to engage with people who are going to constructively help him hone his vision for the artwork, not get hung up on personal opinion.

Back on topic.

FAST Pinball

3 weeks later
#1254 2 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

Scott said he's going to design a P3 game in the future!

I would love to see what Scott could do creating a killer interactive experience on the P3! If he can create a mesmerizing street level game with wood, metal, plastic, lights and a killer sound system, where else could he take a vision with the addition of a huge LCD playfield?

Damn! Pinball is cool!

FAST Pinball

#1288 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

I have to say that I don't get the high-price "none-apologists" that have emerged lately on pinside and podcasts, etc.
Suddenly no pinball machine could possibly be made for less than $6K USD, and Stern's gutted System 11-like features on a Pro model is a "steal" at $5400.
What the h*ll people? You are all complicit in the insanely rising prices of new (and subsequently used) pinball machines. If you plot the prices of NiB machines vs the likely BoM for each over the last 10 years, even 5, you'll see the prices have risen many many times inflation. The only reason for this is that people seem thrilled to pay more for each new release, and usually to get less in terms of playfield features, coils, etc. It's making this hobby unaffordable to a large segment of the population, and I find it annoying as hell.
If Stern could sell their home version pinball ("The Pin") at a profit for $2500, there is no way a SW Pro needs to be >$5k. This is simply the manufacturers milking the current pinball bubble for all that it is worth IMHO.
Anyway, by all means, argue with each over how much higher the price of TnA should be and watch its sales potential collapse. I guess the way the math works it's better for the manufacturers to milk the high end and produce far fewer units, that way profits are high and they don't need to produce as many games. Less games = less games out there, so more future sales potential. Basically every game is a limited run now.
I love what this game is about, but I'd fight all day for the lower price point. Lose the vaporous LCD if you have to, the game is under the glass and through the speakers on this one anyway.

You gotta look at it from a business perspective. Not only can Stern spread economies of scale across the sale of many more pins, they also get the benefit of common parts across many different titles.

Your programming and development costs are the same if you sell 1 pin or 1000 pins. It is also especially important to value the work properly. Whenever I budget for a project I assume I am paying someone to do each part. If I decide to wear multiple hats to "make it happen" then that is a personal decision to make the project more affordable. Scott can write code, design, engineer AND compose original music. That is the work of 4 people in 1. It is certainly different for your debut pin because you want to make it happen, but it doesn't mean that the work it takes (in this case the work of 4 people) to pull it off is any less. Ask Ben about AMH. He wore TONS of hats (and had great support, for sure) but he made it happen.

I estimate that this pin must be at least $7000 for everyone to feel great about the endeavor. If there is money to be shaved off that figure it will need to come from price breaks on electronics, displays or coordinating some larger parts orders in sync with Alice Cooper and Ben's next title. But even then it is tight because those parts come from companies trying to make their own businesses make sense.

All in all, please don't see $6,000-$7,000+ prices as a cash grab or being greedy, see it instead as what it takes to have making commercial pinball even worth doing at all. See it as supporting new up-and-coming designers, artists, musicians, etc. and helping to enable them to get their creations to the masses. And hopefully want to do it all again!

FAST Pinball

1 month later
#1861 2 years ago

TNA is the future of pinball!

Passionate people pouring their guts into designing a killer game and a leader with a crystal clear vision. A top-notch collective of talented people brought together to realize the vision and indie companies working together to bring them to the masses.

TNA is strong in the pinball traditions we all love and brings in just enough of something new to make it exciting all over again.

Scott had a vision and he is realizing it. I could see that at Expo last year and I love that Scott is seeing it through to the finish.

Can't wait to play the finished game in real life. It reminds me of when I used to get to hear a band's demo tape. I would get super excited by what what taking shape and be blown away when I got to hear the finished album.


FAST Pinball

#1978 2 years ago

Whoa. Should someone call for help?

FAST Pinball

#1980 2 years ago
Quoted from bangerjay:

I'm good A-Aron

These "off-your-rocker" posts had me thinking otherwise. Glad to hear you are all right.

FAST Pinball

#1983 2 years ago
Quoted from bangerjay:

Which one in particular would you cite?

Start at 1973 and just read until you get to the end.

FAST Pinball

#1996 2 years ago
Quoted from bangerjay:

We're gonna party Aaron

Let's do this. I get the vibe that making it home at. all. is a win. Going to Expo in Oct?

FAST Pinball

#2008 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Where's Waldo orgy

Did Ben just let slip the theme for his newest pin design?

FAST Pinball

4 weeks later
#3019 2 years ago
Quoted from TheNoTrashCougar:

Yeah feel free to ignore that garbage I posted.

Whatever. Being smart is cool.

FAST Pinball

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